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Bob Greece View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most important thing is .... timing
    Posted: May 09 2006 at 04:51
I have studied music and know about basic timings like 4/4 and 3/4 but I have read in the forums about 3/3 and 6/8 timings.
 
My question is how do 3/3 and 6/8 timings differ from 3/4?
 
Are there any other strange timings that I should know about?
 
For example, I always have trouble imagining a 5/4 timing as used in Jethro Tull's Living With the Past even though I know the tune really well.


Edited by Bob Greece - May 09 2006 at 05:18
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 04:57
3/3 makes no sense imo. It's just 3/4 with different "labels".

The difference between 6/8 and 3/4 is that in 6/8 you don't have the typical waltz rhythm with 3 quarter notes - instead you have a rhythm which cannot be properly expressed with quarter notes.
    

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - May 09 2006 at 05:03
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Bob Greece View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 05:17
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The difference between 6/8 and 3/4 is that in 6/8 you don't have the typical waltz rhythm with 3 quarter notes - instead you have a rhythm which cannot be properly expressed with quarter notes. 
 
As far as I can work out, 6/8 is like 3/4 but with twice as many notes. Is it a rythym with twice the speed?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:14
No, 6/8 has two beats divided into three, while 3/4 has three beats divided into two (or even not divided at all)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:21
Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

No, 6/8 has two beats divided into three, while 3/4 has three beats divided into two
 
How's that work? 3 into 2 won't go.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 10:26
You asked about other strange timings - Im particularly fond of Dave Brubecks messing around with time signatures on the albums "Time Out" & "Time Further Out" (I have an old vinyl copy of the two as a double album). "Unsquare Dance" is one of the weirdest (and most difficult to 'tap' along to!). I think (but am no musician) that its in 7/8. There are many other examples of weirdness on these albums which, although 40 years old, I think are still great fun.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 15:17
9/8 has to be a favourite if you like Genesis!

Surely, the first figure is how many notes in a bar, while the second figure is the length of each note.

Thus 4/4 is 4 notes to the bar and each one is a quarter note, ie quaver.

My 9/8 would be 9 notes to the bar, each one is a semi-quaver
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 15:54
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

No, 6/8 has two beats divided into three, while 3/4 has three beats divided into two
 
How's that work? 3 into 2 won't go.
 
Of course you can divide a beat into three ... it's called a triplet. simply count 1 and a 2 and a ...
 
It's the most simple */8 rhythm. There are also 5/8, 7/8, 9/8 or even 13/8.
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laplace View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:33
I play keyboard but I skipped theory and chose to teach myself from scratch. So can someone tell me whether the beginning of Tarkus is 5/4 or 10/4? LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:43
^ I've never seen anything noted in 10/4. It may be 4/4 4/4 2/4 though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:46
Well, it's closer to 4/4 followed by two measures of 3/4.. but I do believe 10/4 is a legitimate signature..

It might even be 5/8, I'm bad at these things. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:50
I just don't think that there's a 10/4 rhythm that cannot be broken down in smaller segments.
 
Just count along and try to determine where the emphasized beats are!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 17:00
^ I agree. 9 times out of 10, the simplest solution is the correct one. (Occam's Razor and all that) Big smile I haven't heard Tarkus enough yet to try to decipher that one. 
Pure Brilliance:
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 18:11
my favorites are 7/8 and 9/8, have never heard of 3/3 or 10/4 mentioned above
 
Mike's comments think that cover the subject
 
the thing you should know Rob is that 'zeimpekiko' (Greek dance) is always in 9/8 Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:17
6/8 is often called a "shuffle".
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:43
Quote my favorites are 7/8 and 9/8, have never heard of 3/3 or 10/4 mentioned above
 
Mike's comments think that cover the subject
 
the thing you should know Rob is that 'zeimpekiko' (Greek dance) is always in 9/8

10/4 Really is just a 5/4. A good example of 5/4 is the Mission Impossible theme.

As for 7/8, I've heard this time signature done many times, but almost never done well. It usually sounds choppy, and forced, but I have heard it used well. Some examples of 7/4 are "Money" by Pink Floyd, "Spoonman" by Soundgarden, and "Ticks & Leeches" by Tool.

I've heard some neat compositions with 9/8 (I can think of a tune that Bach wrote, but I don't recall what the name was). Sort of a triplet waltz.

A really obscure time signature is 15/8. I've heard this time signature used effectively only once. The song was "Sleep Is Wrong" by Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. They actually managed to make it balance out. :P


Edited by Toob-Wurm - May 09 2006 at 21:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:47
Well, Symphony X's "Wicked" is in 13/4, and I still can't count it...Primus' song "11" is in 11/4 and it actually sounds really cool.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:49
Originally posted by heyitsthatguy heyitsthatguy wrote:

Primus' song "11" is in 11/4 and it actually sounds really cool.

Their drummer really impresses me when they play that. Especially with the finesse that he uses in the intro.


Edited by Toob-Wurm - May 09 2006 at 21:50
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Bob Greece View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2006 at 03:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

There are also 5/8, 7/8, 9/8 or even 13/8.
 
How about 4/8, 8/8 or 10/8? Are these valid timings? And if not why not?
 
Another question - if you played 3/4 really fast, couldn't it become the same as a 6/8?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2006 at 04:37
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

There are also 5/8, 7/8, 9/8 or even 13/8.

 

How about 4/8, 8/8 or 10/8? Are these valid timings? And if not why not?

 

Another question - if you played 3/4 really fast, couldn't it become the same as a 6/8?


8/8 is NOT being used in notation. The only situation where it would make sense to use it instead of 4/4 would be a 5 + 3 rhythm ... but that would normally always be noted as 5/8 3/8.

And the whole thing doesn't have ANYTHING to do with speed. There are slow */8 rhythms and fast */4 rhythms.
    
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