The most important thing is .... timing
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Topic: The most important thing is .... timing
Posted By: Bob Greece
Subject: The most important thing is .... timing
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 04:51
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I have studied music and know about basic timings like 4/4 and 3/4 but I have read in the forums about 3/3 and 6/8 timings.
My question is how do 3/3 and 6/8 timings differ from 3/4?
Are there any other strange timings that I should know about?
For example, I always have trouble imagining a 5/4 timing as used in Jethro Tull's Living With the Past even though I know the tune really well. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 04:57
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3/3 makes no sense imo. It's just 3/4 with different "labels".
The difference between 6/8 and 3/4 is that in 6/8 you don't have the typical waltz rhythm with 3 quarter notes - instead you have a rhythm which cannot be properly expressed with quarter notes. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 05:17
As far as I can work out, 6/8 is like 3/4 but with twice as many notes. Is it a rythym with twice the speed? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: goose
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:14
| No, 6/8 has two beats divided into three, while 3/4 has three beats divided into two (or even not divided at all) |
Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 08:21
How's that work? 3 into 2 won't go. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 10:26
| You asked about other strange timings - Im particularly fond of Dave Brubecks messing around with time signatures on the albums "Time Out" & "Time Further Out" (I have an old vinyl copy of the two as a double album). "Unsquare Dance" is one of the weirdest (and most difficult to 'tap' along to!). I think (but am no musician) that its in 7/8. There are many other examples of weirdness on these albums which, although 40 years old, I think are still great fun. |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 15:17
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9/8 has to be a favourite if you like Genesis! Surely, the first figure is how many notes in a bar, while the second figure is the length of each note. Thus 4/4 is 4 notes to the bar and each one is a quarter note, ie quaver. My 9/8 would be 9 notes to the bar, each one is a semi-quaver |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 15:54
Of course you can divide a beat into three ... it's called a triplet. simply count 1 and a 2 and a ...
It's the most simple */8 rhythm. There are also 5/8, 7/8, 9/8 or even 13/8. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:33
I play keyboard but I skipped theory and chose to teach myself from scratch. So can someone tell me whether the beginning of Tarkus is 5/4 or 10/4? 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:43
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^ I've never seen anything noted in 10/4. It may be 4/4 4/4 2/4 though. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:46
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Well, it's closer to 4/4 followed by two measures of 3/4.. but I do believe 10/4 is a legitimate signature.. It might even be 5/8, I'm bad at these things.  |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 16:50
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I just don't think that there's a 10/4 rhythm that cannot be broken down in smaller segments.
Just count along and try to determine where the emphasized beats are! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 17:00
^ I agree. 9 times out of 10, the simplest solution is the correct one. (Occam's Razor and all that)  I haven't heard Tarkus enough yet to try to decipher that one.
------------- Pure Brilliance: 
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Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 18:11
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my favorites are 7/8 and 9/8, have never heard of 3/3 or 10/4 mentioned above
Mike's comments think that cover the subject
the thing you should know Rob is that 'zeimpekiko' (Greek dance) is always in 9/8
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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:17
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6/8 is often called a "shuffle".
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Toob-Wurm
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:43
10/4 Really is just a 5/4. A good example of 5/4 is the Mission Impossible theme. As for 7/8, I've heard this time signature done many times, but almost never done well. It usually sounds choppy, and forced, but I have heard it used well. Some examples of 7/4 are "Money" by Pink Floyd, "Spoonman" by Soundgarden, and "Ticks & Leeches" by Tool. I've heard some neat compositions with 9/8 (I can think of a tune that Bach wrote, but I don't recall what the name was). Sort of a triplet waltz. A really obscure time signature is 15/8. I've heard this time signature used effectively only once. The song was "Sleep Is Wrong" by Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. They actually managed to make it balance out. :P ------------- 
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:47
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Well, Symphony X's "Wicked" is in 13/4, and I still can't count it...Primus' song "11" is in 11/4 and it actually sounds really cool.
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Posted By: Toob-Wurm
Date Posted: May 09 2006 at 21:49
Their drummer really impresses me when they play that. Especially with the finesse that he uses in the intro. -------------
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 03:40
How about 4/8, 8/8 or 10/8? Are these valid timings? And if not why not?
Another question - if you played 3/4 really fast, couldn't it become the same as a 6/8? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 04:37
8/8 is NOT being used in notation. The only situation where it would make sense to use it instead of 4/4 would be a 5 + 3 rhythm ... but that would normally always be noted as 5/8 3/8. And the whole thing doesn't have ANYTHING to do with speed. There are slow */8 rhythms and fast */4 rhythms. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:34
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Right, tempo is independent of time signature. The difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is the subdivision of the beat. example: 3/4 ONE-and-Two-and-Three-and 6/8 ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six Does that help? ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 09:55
Thanks. When I say those out loud, it makes sense.
Is it that 3/4 has only one emphasized beat in the bar whilst 6/8 has two? Is anything played during the ANDs? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10">
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Posted By: Empathy
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 18:51
Most of the time, yes. A very common 3/4 "feel" is the waltz.
It depends on the music.. the "AND"s are just subdivisions of the beat (in the 3/4 example, they're eighth notes), you certainly can play during them. It's less about what's being played, and more about where the emphasis of the beat goes. ------------- Pure Brilliance:
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Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 19:44
Hello Mr Greece. There is more info (read: opinions) on this matter in the Music and Musicians exchange forum. So once ya have a good handle on it read through the 'Time signatures' thread to get confused again  Edit: I meant to tell ya since you asked about other timmings in use about Rushs well known use of 12/8. They also use 7/8 9/8. To me time signatures are acedemic. Its only a way to write music on paper to communicate musical ideas without sound. In other regards they are near meaningless (imho of course) |
Posted By: Toob-Wurm
Date Posted: May 10 2006 at 23:04
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I know a few modern composers that don't even use time signatures.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 02:45
^ I know a few modern composers that don't even play music. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: May 11 2006 at 05:27
6/8 is compound time, meaning there are 2 beats of 3 quavers
3/4 is simple time, meaning there are 3 beats of 1 crotchet ------------- 
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