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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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 Posted: March 25 2006 at 18:43 |
 ken4musiq wrote:
This is exactly what I am talking about.
Firstly, you site all this rubbish as though it is fact. You never say I think or in your opinion so don't get off on me because I have a differing opinion, which is exactly what you are doing and blaming me for doing.
I always use IMO, IMHO or even IMVHO when I'm talking about taste, but I'm not saying something new, ELP after 1974 never was the same as Genesis was crap after Hackett left.
You never respond to my posts that are insightful and interesting. Only when I say Genesis is overrated, which I did not start and really is a trite thing to say but like I've said before, it gets people to repsond.
I believe we had a lot of discussions, even one that almost ended in insults, in which you called me a Pharisse talking To Jesus (You) about music 
This was a battle that was here when I came and will be going on long after I have tired of it, which I have. In addition, in the last month I have listen to Selling England, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme about five times, Foxtrot about 15 about times. Get Em Out By Friday is my favorite prog track I have said that before; I always defend it. Does that sound like a person who really has any issue with Genesis, the band?
Nope, but I'm tured to watch repeteadly how you attack Genesis, if you read my posts I very rarely mess with ELP, by the contrary my posts and reviews about Trilogy and BSS are complementary, I rated both with 5 stars the same as Pictures.
Secondly, Genesis for all of its greatness released Duke and the like. They got rid of Steve Hackett who you would admit was a major part of the greatness of the band sound. Gabriel released So and it had such lovely ditties as Sledgehammer and Big Time, which were catered to us ad naseum for the better part of 1986.
Hackett is Hackett (His career is flawless), Gabriel is Gabriel (One commercial album in all his career) and Genesis is Genesis, I never talk about the solo albums by Emo, Lake or Palmer. But Gabriel did one partially commercial album in his career after he broke because he invested all his money in a non profitable but highly artistic project as WOMAD, and people insist on this, he has at least 10 other albums.
Why don't you talk about the IMO boring Lake ballads that you can find in Works I and II?
But Genesis gets a big pass on all this and we can pick on Emo, well everyone knows he's a big egomaniac anyway. Well, I am just here to say. I am tired of that, as well.
Genesis doesn't get a pass, Gabroiel era is appreciated by most of the Prog' fans for one reasons, their albums are outstanding, I'm sure that if BSS or Trilogy were in the top you wouldn't talk, but guess something, I do, I believe SEBTP doesn't deserve to be N° 1, and said it repeteadly.
Post Hackett Genesis is the biggest joke here, Phil Collins, well the insults against him expressed even by Genesis fans can be found anywhere, so what's the problem, maybe that people don't care for ELP as much as you would like?
Iván |
Edited by ivan_2068
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 02:59 |
I agree with Phil....Banks better than Wakeman in composition department. Because the song's the thing..right? That is why you listen. Trashy flash only gets you so far. Banks wins by that virtue.
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 03:06 |
Progger wrote:
OK Ivan, here I am
Jon>Peter>Phil>Ray>Trevor
Rick>Patrick>Tony>Igor>Geoffrey
Howe>Rabin>Hackett>Phillips>Banks>Sherwood> ; ;Steurmer
Chris>Mike
Bill>Phil>Alan>Chester
THE YES ALBUM>TRESSPASS
FRAGILE>NURSERY CRYME
CTTE>FOXTROT
TALES>LAMB
TRICK OF THE TALE>TORMATO
DRAMA>WIND AND WUTHERING
90125>DUKE
Please note everybody that my list is objective and the truth. Anybody who says different knows nothing about musicians and how music is constructed!
BTW Ivan, in the latest issue of classic rock magazine, their is a feature on the greatest 100 rock albums as voted for my musicians and critics. Yes has three albums in that chart, Genesis has one |
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 03:07 |
Can you please explain why Patrick edges out Tony in your mind?
Tod
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 03:29 |
Ivan Melgar Morey wrote:
ken4musiq wrote:
I understand that the great preference for Genesis is universal and even in the literature there has been a developing preference for Genesis over the last ten years. When I say that they are over rated I am saying that they are ganered more support than bands like Jethtro Tull, ELP Yes or Crimson when musically none of these bands is any better than any other band and again, are best understood as a whole.
Why aren't you motre honest, you believe Genesis doesn't deserve to have more credit than ELP, that's your whole problem. You can't understand why the people who cheered ELP until 1974 stopped loving them and preferred Genesis.
But it's only your opinion as an ELP fanboy, nothing else.
For us as ELP fans it is an insult to come to a site and see that people have underrated our band. ELP in many ways defined the genre back in 1974, for better and worse. That should grant them a lasting place of influence in the annuls of prog rock. To do otherwise is to rewrite history.
ELP vanished in 1974, when they came back they had some credit which partially lost with Works I, specially Lake's insipid side and Emerson's boring Piano Concerto N° 1. Works II was even worst, instead of picking up the pieces they took some leftover tracks and made an album worst than the previous, the credit was very small at this point, then they were forced to release another album to honour a contract for which they had already been paid, and they relased Love Beach in revenge, but the fan was the one that paid the bill.
They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from Trespass to W&W is one thing and after they lost the frontman, lyricist and vocalist, plus Steve Hackett it was almost as another band.
But ELP has no excuse, they had the same members, and the talent, but they lost the imagination, that's why ELP is hated by many people who foget masterpieces as Trilogy and BSS because of the mediocre work they made later.
Iván |
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TOD KREMER
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 03:29 |
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Losendos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 571
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 17:10 |
TOD KREMER wrote:
Ivan Melgar Morey wrote:
ken4musiq wrote:
ELP vanished in 1974, when they came back they had some credit which partially lost with Works I, specially Lake's insipid side and Emerson's boring Piano Concerto N° 1. Works II was even worst, instead of picking up the pieces they took some leftover tracks and made an album worst than the previous, the credit was very small at this point, then they were forced to release another album to honour a contract for which they had already been paid, and they relased Love Beach in revenge, but the fan was the one that paid the bill.
They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from Trespass to W&W is one thing and after they lost the frontman, lyricist and vocalist, plus Steve Hackett it was almost as another band.
But ELP has no excuse, they had the same members, and the talent, but they lost the imagination, that's why ELP is hated by many people who foget masterpieces as Trilogy and BSS because of the mediocre work they made later.
Iván
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I think Ivan has made a fair assessment here. Even ATTW3 and Duke had fairly good songwriting albeit they weren't terribly progressive and therefore they went to No 1 .
Whereas after Works ELP were filling disks with very little content of any description and thus on the Works tour they went bust.But BSS , Trilogy , Tarkus and ELP are great albums and latter producations do not change that.
One thing I've noticed with ELP fans is that they insist their band must be rated highly or above other bands. I haven't seen this to the same extent with fans of other bands. Any idea why this is so ?
Edited by Losendos
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How wonderful to be so profound
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Absynthe
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 19 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 19
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Posted: March 30 2006 at 23:34 |
Gabriel vs. Jon Anderson: Too Different, They are both great for their different style
Hackett vs. Howe: Hackett all the way!
Rutherford vs. Squire: Squire, sad but true
Banks vs. Wakeman: Still too different but prefer Bank!
Collins vs. Bruford/White: Collins is "avant-gardiste"
Trespass vs. The Yes Album: Yours is no disagrace rocks and The Knife sounds so great, too difficult
Nursery Cryme vs. Fragile: 2 great different albums
Foxtrot vs. Close to the Edge: Supper's Ready kick Close To Edge's ass totaly, Yes never did a masterpeice like this one
Selling England vs. Relayer: Firth ou Fifth and Cineman show does it all
Lamb vs. Tales: Tales for sure, The Lamb sucks pretty because of the great lack of Hackett on the album
Finally, their're two bands totally different but i want to admit that i prefer genesis...
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ken4musiq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 446
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Posted: March 31 2006 at 01:30 |
One thing I've noticed with ELP fans is that they insist their band must be rated highly or above other bands. I haven't seen this to the same extent with fans of other bands. Any idea why this is so ? >.
It's funny being a fan. We all like all these bands but we are a fan of one or two. I, for one, never said that ELP should be rated above other bands, just that their contributions to prog are quite important and as important as any other band. Pink Floyd and Genesis are so highly rated and I think a part of that is justified because they give prog the better part of its narrative, or its dominant narrative. I have just tried to show that actually the link between Wish You Were Here and Supper's Ready is Karnevil #9, as you can read in the Jerusalem thread.
I, for one like the Works records and I am not alone of this site in this regard. One reason is that the level of musicianship is at a very high standard, especially on tracks like Fanfare and Pirates. I do think Works One would have faired better without the piano concerto. Works Two is an album of outtakes and singles but still at a very high level of musicianship. It was meant to be just that, an album of outtakes. That's how it was billed and that's what we knew we were getting when we bought it. Likewise, Emerson gave a whole interview in Musician magazine explaining the problems with the making of Love Beach; he never tried to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. One can say what one wants about his theatrics and exhibitionism, he has never lost credibilty as a musician from that stand point. I was sixteen when works came out and as a musician I am thankful that I could hear this type of music, which kids today do not have. Their favorite drummer is Tommy Lee and they have no ear for keyboard harmony. And if prog history should lose ELP, it would not be for the better.
I think that it is unfair to make an assessment of ELP based on what happened later. ELP could not develop a style in line with what was expected in 1979 the way Genesis did. Genesis were song writers all along, afterall. Collins loved R and B, and Gabriel American soul, so they went back to their roots. ELP's roots were in prog. They had no where to "fall back."
I think a lot of the kind of animosity that one sees like here is deeply rooted in the history of the music. Emerson loved Genesis and was a big supporter but when ELP got big he did not take them along for the ride. In 1973, Genesis toured the States with Lou Reed; that could not have been too good. After Gabriel left I think Collins felt that Genesis was left out to dry not only by Gabriel but the prog elite as well. Well, they were all on hiatus. But then in 1980 when Genesis hit it big time, I bet there were more then a few Big 5 bands that wished they could have "pulled in a favor."
My version of 70s prog history ends like this. ELP decides to do a series of tours that host guests like Elton Dean or Mel Collins. One of these guests is Steve Hackett who does a tour with ELP in 1983-4. On the last leg of the tour the group supports Genesis to pull in a favor. Hackett reunites with Genesis and all is forgotten.
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Genesis/Yes comparison
