There was a topic like this a while back, but I searched and it must be gone.  Anyway, compare Yes and Genesis members and albums.

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel by a small bit.

Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: completely equal

Rutherford v. Squire: Squire

Banks v. Wakeman: Banks by a small bit.

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>White=Collins

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- Trespass by a small bit, but I love both.

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Nursery Cryme, but I think both are overrated.

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Close to the Edge by a bit, both are awesome.

Selling England v. Relayer- Relayer, but they're pretty close (both great).

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- Tough, both equal I think (not huge on both, but they have good moments).

Overall, the two bands are almost equal IMO: at their best, they're about impossible to beat.  However, I prefer Yes by abit, mostly because of there more serious nature, and there subject matter (majestic stuff, Battles and such.)  What about you guys?

For me its easy, I profer Genesis over Yes but as they are completely different bands its not easy to compare them. In terchnicall abilaty Yes are just ahead of Genesis but Genesis composed songs better than any other band, ever. Besides, the sound Chris Squire gets from his bass really anoys me, and as a bassist that ruins the record a bit for me.

Gabriel   Howe   Squire   Banks   Bruford

trespass vs. the yes album   the yes album (but I do like trespass) 

nursery crime vs. fragile    they're both spotty but fragile I guess

foxtrot vs. selling England vs. close to the edge vs. relayer    foxtrot and CttE

IMO these are the best 4 albums both bands did so I'm comparing them all together so I will rank them

1 foxtrot by far the best album ever made by ether band

2 CttE very interesting and enjoyable

3 selling England also very good just not as good as CttE

4 relayer I consider to be the first prog album I ever bought (I mean at the time I didn't know what prog was even though I had aqualung and darkside of the moon this was the first hard to get use to album I bought and responsible for a few months of lost time in exploring the genre) altough not at first I like it now

the lamb vs. tales  this one's hard because I like but don't love ether I guess I'd give the honor to tales

Yes vs. Genesis: How can you compare the two giants of the '70?

At least this is an honest try

So this is my assessment:

Gabriel vs. Jon Anderson: A draw allthough not comparable

Hackett vs. Howe: Howe for me

Rutherford vs. Squire: No contest, Squire wins by a mile

Banks vs. Wakeman/Moraz/Kaye: Wakeman>Banks>Moraz>Kaye

Collins vs. Bruford/White: equal though different

Trespass vs. The Yes Album: The Yes Album (nothing compared to Yours is No Disgrace on Trespass)

Nursery Cryme vs. Fragile: (almost) equal (The Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacis vs. Roundabout and Heart of the Sunrise)

Foxtrot vs. Close to the Edge: Close to the Edge, a level never reached by Genesis

Selling England vs. Relayer: By a hair: Selling England mainly because of Cinema Show

Lamb vs. Tales: Tales fore me, I don't like the Lamb very much, too much Gabriel, to little the rest of the band.

Overall: Yes and Genesis are the greatest two bands of English Symphonic Rock of the '70. I prefer Yes slighty over Genesis, but both are absolutely great.

Gabriel = Anderson: Both incredible both lyrically and vocally
Hackett = Howe: Love both incredible styles

Rutherford = Squire: i think squire is slightly overrated, because he uses a pick too much which isn't that impressive.
Banks = Wakeman: Once again, love their different styles the same.
Bruford > Collins > White: Bruford is my favorite drummer, so this was easy.

Album: From the ones I've heard...

Nursery Cryme = Fragile:   

Foxtrot < CttE:

Selling England > Relayer: 

Pretty much a wash for me.

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel by a mile, I hate Jon's voice.

Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: Steve Hackett because of what he did with Genesis and because of his solo career

Rutherford v. Squire: Squire no doubt

Banks v. Wakeman: Banks as a band player, Wakeman as a soloist

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>Collins>>>>>>>>>>>White

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- Trespass by a bit, even though Yes Album is more solid, it's just taste

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Nursery Cryme by a mile, Fragile is one of the weakest Yes albums IMO

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- FOXTROT by a nose

Selling England v. Relayer- Relayer and by far.

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- The Lamb is light years better IMO, it's an icon of Prog Rock, while Tales is one of the most dissapointing Yes albums. I never heard a co-author saying one of his albums is pile of sh*t as Rick did in the 70's.

Overall Genesis, I consider a lot of bands better than Yes.

Iván 

I dont think Genesis and Yes have that much in common really. The only simularities are that they both wrote some lengthy epic songs, making use of odd time signatures, frequent changes of mood and tempo and are both 'symphonic' prog rock. Yes always had more dominant lead guitar parts in their music, and generally Howe shared the spotlight as much as Wakemen. Genesis were keyboard led. All electric guitar parts were integral to the music, but rarely dominant in the foreground.

I love both bands, but I prefer Genesis, simply because I prefer their songs; the melodies, the emotional impact they have on me and the way they structure their music.

ivan_2068 wrote: Members Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel by a mile, I hate Jon's voice. Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: Steve Hackett because of what he did with Genesis and because of his solo career Rutherford v. Squire: Squire no doubt Banks v. Wakeman: Banks as a band player, Wakeman as a soloist Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>Collins>>>>>>>>>>>White Albums (Classic albums only) Trespass v. Yes Album- Trespass by a bit, even though Yes Album is more solid, it's just taste Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Nursery Cryme by a mile, Fragile is one of the weakest Yes albums IMO Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- FOXTROT by a nose Selling England v. Relayer- Relayer and by far. Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- The Lamb is light years better IMO, it's an icon of Prog Rock, while Tales is one of the most disappointing Yes albums. I never heard a co-author saying one of his albums is pile of sh*t as Rick did in the 70's. Overall Genesis, I consider a lot of bands better than Yes. Iván

I agree with you on every statement

WHY?

Both equally great, "essential" classic prog bands.

It really does not make much sense to posit two drummers against each other who were never rivals to begin with. Collins and Bruford were friends and hung out listening to jazz together.  Both of their styles were greatly influenced by Billy Cobham from the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Billy Cobham was one of the first to use the tom-toms to great length for dramatic effect.  If you listen to most drummers pre-Cobham, they use the snare drum a lot (even Carl Palmer) to articulate rhythms clearly. They start their fills start with the snare drum. It is a very jazz thing to do.  If you listen to Bruford and Collins, they start to get away from this.  Bruford's drumming on UK In the Dead of Night is very influenced by Cobham, with those tom tom sweeps throughout the opening section.  An obvious example is Collins In the Air Tonight but you can hear this on Selling England at the end of I Know What I Like, for example. Collins also was one of the first to experiment with odd size toms to get a fatter and richer sound, just for something new and different. Bruford also experimented with different tom tom sounds.

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel both as singer and as lyricist

Steve Hackett v. Steve Howe : different roles, lots of Howe solos, Hacketts guitarplaying more incorporated. I´d say they´re equal

Rutherford v. Squire: Squire

Banks v. Wakeman: Banks -great composer with a sense for melodies Wakeman lacks.

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>White=Collins(Cinema show!)

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album.

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Nursery Cryme

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- The most difficult one, two great albums, but I choose Foxtrot.

Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- Lamb wins by a mile!

Overall I prefer Genesis to Yes. Better composed songs, nicer melodies. There lyrics are a mix of fantsyepics, serious lyrics and English humour.

As much as I dearly love Gabriel's Genesis, Yes are on a higher level of everything from songwriting to playing, to structure to consistency of sheer brilliance.

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Jon Anderson

Steve Hackett v. Steve Howe : Steve Howe

Rutherford v. Squire: Squire

Banks v. Wakeman: Wakeman

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>Collins>White

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album.

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Close to the edge

Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England

& the winner for me is YES,think genesis is a overrated band

Gabriel < Anderson
Hackett < Howe
Collins < Bruford
Rutherford < Squire
Banks < Wakeman

Trespass < the yes album  
Nursery cryme = Fragile
Foxtrot < CTTE
Selling < Relayer
Lamb = Tales

karakatoa wrote: Members Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Jon Anderson Steve Hackett v. Steve Howe : Steve Howe Rutherford v. Squire: Squire Banks v. Wakeman: Wakeman Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>Collins>White Albums (Classic albums only) Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album. Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Close to the edge Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England & the winner for me is YES,think genesis is a overrated band

A bit fanboyish no?

I'm starting to believethe word overrated is overrated

Iván

   Jon Andreson > Peter Gabriel  Jon has a much nicer sounding voice and never did rubbish vocals like Back in NYC. Gabriel did amazing stuff with limited ability

  Steve Hackett > Steve Howe  Steve is very subtle . Howe is a repressed front man cos he can't sing. Compare hackett's solo work

  Banks > Wakeman Too often wakeman although technically better appears bored

  Squire > Rutherford

  Collins > Bruford   Collins is a damn good drummer. People just hate him because of the direction genesis went.

 Time and a WORD < Trespass

  The Yes Album > Nursery Cryme

  Fragile < Foxtrot

  CTTE < SEBTP  Never worked out why CTTE brings on such orgasmic ecstacies

  Tales <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<< TLLDOB

  Relayer > Trick

   Going  > WAW

  Tormato > ATTW3

   9012  < Duke  (Yes aint Yes without JA)

 After that Genesis' for the most part weren't really progressive any more.

 The final verdict; Yes greater individual talent is matched by Genesis better ability to work as an ensemble.

 It would either be with Yes because the deplorable state Genesis got themselves in ( Invisible Touch. Yes never sunk that low) or

with Genesis because the Lamb is a masterpiece and TFTO an embarrassment to the prog genre.

 What was that line in Battle of epping forrest about being a draw

erlenst wrote: Well, considering the amount of sh*t Rick has done as a solo artist, his words doesn't mean anything in my opinion. Ritchie Blackmore has also stated that Fireball is crap, and we all know that is ridiculous.

I believe that after this:

With Strawbs:

With Yes

Alone:

His word means a lot, at least to me.

This is more in number and more valuaable than what most artists can do in two life times. He has done a lot of pay bill albums, but being modest with all his work and not mentioning  several great solo live releases, he knows what he talks about.

Iván

Only counting those who voted indivuidyually (No ties mentioned except when really significative) until Angel of Repose:

• Gabriel 10.......Anderson 3 
• Howe 7.......Hackett 4    (5 ties)
• Squire 16 ....Rutherford 0 (Poor Mike, not a single vote)
• Banks 11......Wakeman 3 (??????) (Counting both in their roles as members of Yes and Genesis...Never expected this)
• Bruford....Collins.....White (Too lazy to count but it's pretty clear.

• Yes Album 9......Trespass 4
• Nursery Cryme 7......Fragile 3
• Foxtrot 8...CTTE 6 (A lot of ties, tough one, I thought CTTE was going to win by far, but seems Supper's Ready was too much)
• SEBTP 7....Relayer 5 (Tough one)
• Lamb 8 .....Tales 2

Yes

Members

• Howe  (very tight)
• Squire (Unanimous)
• Bruford (Almost unanimous)

Albums:

• Yes album

Genesis:

Members

• Peter Gabriel (By far)
• Tony Banks (Incredible, the second biggest number of votes after Squire and the second biggest difference)

Albums

• Nursery Cryme
• Foxtrot
• SEBTP
• The Lamb

Where is Progger when you need him?

Iván

• Anderson ***** Gabriel**** Horn **
• Bruford*****White***Collins***1/2
• Wakeman*****Downes****Kaye***1/2 Banks***1/2
• Howe***** Banks**1/2 Rabin**** Hackett**** Phillips***
• Squire***** Rutherford****

• The YES Album ***** Tresspass***
• Fragile ***** Nursery Cryme ***
• CTTE ***** Foxtrot ***1/2
• Relayer ***** SEBTP ****
• TFTO **** The Lamb ***1/2

• ANDERSON>GABRIEL
• HOWE>HACKETT
• BRUFORD>COLLINS
• SQUIRE>RUTHERFORD
• WAKEMAN>BANKS
• TYA>TRESSPASS
• FRAGILE>NURSERY CRYME
• CTTE>FOXTROT [By a mile]
• RELAYER>SEBTP[By two miles]
• TFTO>LAMB[By 1000 000 miles]

Classic era YES [All members] vrs classic era Genesis [All members]. I have to go with YES in every department.

Also every classic YES period album is far better than any classic Genesis period album!

So, in every departrment YES>GENESIS.

Right! Let's put you all right on this Banks v Wakeman nonsense.....

Composition skills:

Banks >> Wakeman

Keyboard skills:

Wakeman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Banks

OK?

I'm surprised so many people prefer Bruford to Collins. Bruford is certainly more Jazzy and different, a bit more laid back and less in your face, but Collins drums are more boombastic and quite often define a song, particularly in later Genesis.

Depends on what mood I'm in at the time really. Although Cinema show always does it for me.

Losendos wrote:    9012  < Duke  (Yes aint Yes without JA)

Are you saying "JA" wasn't on 90125? Because he was.

sleeper wrote: For me its easy, I profer Genesis over Yes but as they are completely different bands its not easy to compare them. In terchnicall abilaty Yes are just ahead of Genesis but Genesis composed songs better than any other band, ever. Besides, the sound Chris Squire gets from his bass really anoys me, and as a bassist that ruins the record a bit for me.

I agree that both bands are completely different but has anyone noticed their similarity on the Spot The Pigeon EP.  The song Inside and Out is almost Yes pastiche, you could mistake Steve Hackett for Steve Howe on that one.  It's the instrumental bit at the end.

I was going to give a well detailed, Thought out response, When I noticed, This thread is stupid! I've been reading down through so many ridiculous, unnecessary comparisons!

Both bands are fantastic and have made music that very few can equal! never mind better! If you have any respect for either bands music, You'll stop treating their work like two dogs chasing a bunny. It's getting very stupid.

Winter Wine wrote: I was going to give a well detailed, Thought out response, When I noticed, This thread is stupid! I've been reading down through so many ridiculous, unnecessary comparisons! Both bands are fantastic and have made music that very few can equal! never mind better! If you have any respect for either bands music, You'll stop treating their work like two dogs chasing a bunny. It's getting very stupid.

Of course! You are absolutely right, but...it's great fun turning it into a sort of 5-a-side soccer final!!

Winter Wine wrote: I was going to give a well detailed, Thought out response, When I noticed, This thread is stupid! I've been reading down through so many ridiculous, unnecessary comparisons! Both bands are fantastic and have made music that very few can equal! never mind better! If you have any respect for either bands music, You'll stop treating their work like two dogs chasing a bunny. It's getting very stupid.

Aww come on, allow these people abit of self indulgence why dontcha.

Winter Wine, we do it because it's fun, nothing else.

raindance Senior Member Joined: May 24 2005 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 292	Posted: March 16 2006 at 02:22 | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1896018&TPN=3"> Anderson ***** Gabriel**** Horn ** Bruford*****White***Collins***1/2 Wakeman*****Downes****Kaye***1/2 Banks***1/2 Howe***** Banks**1/2 Rabin**** Hackett**** Phillips*** Squire***** Rutherford****   The YES Album ***** Tresspass*** Fragile ***** Nursery Cryme *** CTTE ***** Foxtrot ***1/2 Relayer ***** SEBTP **** TFTO **** The Lamb ***1/2
Back to Top	javascript openWin'pop_up_profile.asp?PF=2383&FID=3','profile','toolbar=0,location=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollbars=1,resizable=1,width=590,height=425'"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/search_form.asp?KW=raindance&SI=AR&FM=3&FID=3&TID=20278&PN=0&TPN=2"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_new_message_form.asp?name=raindance"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/pm_buddy_list.asp?name=raindance">
Tommy Senior Member Joined: May 24 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 173	Posted: March 16 2006 at 02:47 | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1896024&TPN=3"> ANDERSON>GABRIEL HOWE>HACKETT BRUFORD>COLLINS SQUIRE>RUTHERFORD WAKEMAN>BANKS TYA>TRESSPASS FRAGILE>NURSERY CRYME CTTE>FOXTROT [By a mile] RELAYER>SEBTP[By two miles] TFTO>LAMB[By 1000 000 miles]

Interesting, as soon as the votes are counted,, fanboys attack, Yes all the way, no points for Genesis, sure Genesis must be a very crappy band, then why are they in the top 10 with 4 albums?

I'd loove to see how Wakeman will vote in Tales vs The Lamb

But...Who cares?

Iván

Hmmm... This thread again...

I love both bands, and the same posters post the same things all the time starting the same old arguments...

Charles

Phil wrote: Right! Let's put you all right on this Banks v Wakeman nonsense..... Composition skills: Banks >> Wakeman Keyboard skills: Wakeman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Banks OK?

When Banks can individually produce classic works like Six Wives, Journey, King Arthur and Criminal record I might start to take your oppinion much more seriously!

OK Ivan, here I am

Jon>Peter>Phil>Ray>Trevor

Rick>Patrick>Tony>Igor>Geoffrey

Howe>Rabin>Hackett>Phillips>Banks>Sherwood> ;Steurmer

Chris>Mike

Bill>Phil>Alan>Chester

THE YES ALBUM>TRESSPASS

FRAGILE>NURSERY CRYME

CTTE>FOXTROT

TALES>LAMB

TRICK OF THE TALE>TORMATO

DRAMA>WIND AND WUTHERING

90125>DUKE

Please note everybody that my list is objective and the truth. Anybody who says different knows nothing about musicians and how music is constructed!

BTW Ivan, in the latest issue of classic rock magazine, their is a feature on the greatest 100 rock albums as voted for my musicians and critics. Yes has three albums in that chart, Genesis has one

Flying Dutchman said:

'Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel by a small bit.  - GABRIEL TOP FRONT MAN - ANDERSON BETTER SINGER

Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: completely equal  - HOWE BLOWS HACKETT AWAY

Rutherford v. Squire: Squire  - YOU GOT THIS ONE RIGHT

Banks v. Wakeman: Banks by a small bit.  sort the ears out - WAKEMAN IS A GOD

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bruford>White=Collins  -  I LOVE COLLINS - BUT BOTH BRUFORD AND WHITE ARE SUPERIOR DRUMMERS

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- Trespass by a small bit, but I love both.  YES ALBUM HAS MORE CLASSICS

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Nursery Cryme, but I think both are overrated.  FRAGILE -THE SAME AGAIN

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Close to the Edge by a bit, both are awesome.  CTTE UNTOUCHABLE

Selling England v. Relayer- Relayer, but they're pretty close (both great). - THE GREAT GENESIS ALBUM

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- Tough, both equal I think (not huge on both, but they have good moments).'  AGREE

BUT I just could not read all the replies because I was .  Have you been to another planet.

If you are a prog fan then the only keyboard player who can hold a hat to Wakeman is Emerson - both are in another league FROM EVERYONE and if you dont agree then its

kev2307 wrote: Flying Dutchman said:   'Members Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Gabriel by a small bit.  - GABRIEL TOP FRONT MAN - ANDERSON BETTER SINGER Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: completely equal  - HOWE BLOWS HACKETT AWAY   If you are a prog fan then the only keyboard player who can hold a hat to Wakeman is Emerson - both are in another league FROM EVERYONE and if you dont agree then its

^

Members

Gabriel > Jon Anderson Gabriel by a small bit.

Steve Hackett > Steve Howe: completely equal

Rutherford < Squire: Squire

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- Trespass

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Foxtrot.

Selling England v. Relayer- Relayer

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- IT'S THE LAMB, PEOPLE !!!!!

Srry..... but I couldn't imagine living without genesis..... but yes is a great band to !!!

Progger wrote: BTW Ivan, in the latest issue of classic rock magazine, their is a feature on the greatest 100 rock albums as voted for my musicians and critics. Yes has three albums in that chart, Genesis has one

  Genesis claim to fame is the unmatched sequence from Trespass to WAW 7 albums 8 disks. Noone else had a run like that. Which yes albums and which genesis album and what position were they.

BTW for me yes and genesis are  a dead heat. If I think about TFTO the points would go to Genesis but if I think about the Genesis of Invisble Touch I would vote for Yes

Progger wrote: BTW Ivan, in the latest issue of classic rock magazine, their is a feature on the greatest 100 rock albums as voted for my musicians and critics. Yes has three albums in that chart, Genesis has one

Lets see in who you trust.

In December 2001 THE CLASSIC ROCK MAGAZINEmade a list of the best 100 best albums ever:

100 Greatest Rock Albums Ever (December 2001) 1. Led Zeppelin – IV 2. Pink Floyd – Dark Side of the Moon 3. Black Sabbath – Paranoid 4. AC/DC – Back in Black 5. Led Zeppelin – Physical Graffiti 6. Guns N’ Roses – Appetite for Destruction 7. Metallica – Metallica (Black Album) 8. Nirvana – Nevermind 9. Bon Jovi – Slippery When Wet 10. Hendrix, Jimi – Electric Ladyland 11. Radiohead – OK Computer 12. Def Leppard – Hysteria 13. Van Halen – Van Halen 14. Eagles – Hotel California 15. Beck, Jeff – Truth 16. Marillion – Misplaced Childhood 17. Pearl Jam – Ten 18. Deep Purple – Machine Head 19. Red Hot Chili Peppers – BloodSugarSexMagik 20. Black Sabbath – Master of Reality 21. Who – Who’s Next 22. Journey – Escape 23. Lynyrd Skynyrd – Pronounced Leh-Nerd Skin-Nerd 24. Pink Floyd – The Wall 25. Queen – A Night at the Opera 26. Prince – Purple Rain 27. Whitesnake – 1987 28. Aerosmith – Permanent Vacation 29. Rainbow – Long Live Rock & Roll 30. Jethro Tull – Aqualung 31. Yes – Fragile 32. Black Crowes – Shake Your Money Maker 33. Cult – Sonic Temple 34. Jane’s Addiction – Nothing’s Shocking 35. Pantera – Vulgar Display of Power 36. Soundgarden – Superunknown 37. Free – Fire & Water 38. Iron Maiden – Seventh Son of a Seventh Son 39. Rush – Moving Pictures 40. Genesis – Lamb Lies Down on Broadway 41. Cream – Disraeli Gears 42. Queensrÿche – Operation: Mindcrime 43. Deep Purple – Burn 44. Slayer – Seasons in the Abyss 45. Osbourne, Ozzy – Blizzard of Oz 46. Motörhead – Ace of Spades 47. Cheap Trick – In Color 48. Foreigner – 4 49. Korn – Korn 50. Alice in Chains – Dirt 51. King’s X – Out of the Silent Planet 52. Warrior Soul – Last Decade, Dead Century 53. Bad Company – Bad Company 54. Smashing Pumpkins – Siamese Dream 55. Nine Inch Nails – Pretty Hate Machine 56. Thunder – Back Street Symphony 57. Bon Jovi – New Jersey 58. Living Colour – Vivid 59. Van Halen – 1984 60. Def Leppard – Pyromania 61. AC/DC – Highway to Hell 62. Poison – Look What the Cat Dragged In 63. UFO – Force It 64. Faith No More – Real Thing 65. Petty, Tom - And the Heartbreakers 66. Queens of the Stone Age – Rated R 67. Metallica – Master of Puppets 68. Thin Lizzy – Jailbreak 69. Slipknot – Iowa 70. Rage Against the Machine - Rage Against the Machine 71. Machine Head – Burn My Eyes 72. Linkin Park – Hybrid Theory 73. Aerosmith – Pump 74. Scorpions – Blackout 75. Wildhearts – Earth Vs the… 76. Dio – Holy Diver 77. Boston – Boston 78. Iron Maiden – Number of the Beast 79. ZZ Top – Eliminator 80. Black Crowes – Southern Harmony & the Musical Companion 81. Meat Loaf – Bat Out of Hell 82. Nugent, Ted – Cat Scratch Fever 83. Marillion – Clutching at Straws 84. Alice Cooper – Billion Dollar Babies 85. Styx – Pieces of Eight 86. Megadeth – Peace Sells… But Who’s Buying? 87. Tool – Undertow 88. Angel – Sinful 89. Heart – Heart (1985) 90. Manic Street Preachers – Generation Terrorists 91. Rush – 2112 92. Marilyn Manson – Antichrist Superstar 93. Uriah Heep – Demons & Wizards 94. Judas Priest – British Steel 95. Asia - Asia 96. Emerson, Lake & Palmer – Tarkus 97. Mötley Crüe – Dr Feelgood 98. Idol, Billy – Rebel Yell 99. Adams, Bryan – Reckless 100. Kiss – Destroyer

Oops, only one Yes and one Genesis album, way in the middle.

Seems they are not very consitent, Yes has not released any new album that could be considerec one the 100 best releases ever since 2001 to the date,. but they change their list.

But if you still believe in Classic Rock Magazine:

50 Greatest Drummers in Rock (June 2005) Drummer, then in square brackets the band(s) they’re most associated with, followed by Defining Moment. This is either a track, in which case I’ve just given the title; an album (LP) or trademark, in lower case lettering. 1. John Bonham [Led Zeppelin] – Moby Dick 2. Dave Grohl [Nirvana/Queens of the Stone Age/etc] – Nevermind (LP) 3. Keith Moon [The Who] – Kids are Alright (film) 4. Neil Peart [Rush] – live solo spot on 2004 tour 5. Chad Smith [Red Hot Chili Peppers] – Higher Ground 6. Dave Lombardo [Slayer] – Angel of Death 7. Mitch Mitchell [Jimi Hendrix Experience] – Fire 8. Ian Paice [Deep Purple] – Child in Time 9. Cozy Powell [Rainbow/Black Sabbath/etc] – 1812 Overture live solo 10. Charlie Watts [Rolling Stones] – Sympathy for the Devil 11. Nicko McBrain [Iron Maiden] – Mission from ‘Arry 12. Ginger Baker [Cream/Blind Faith/etc] – Toad live 13. Joey Jordison [Slipknot] – live performance with Metallica in 2004 14. Phil Collins [Genesis] – Lamb Lies Down on Broadway LP 15. Carl Palmer [ELP/Asia] – Fanfare for the Common Man 16. Bill Bruford [Yes/King Crimson] – anything from 25 years with King Crimson 17. Mike Portnoy [Dream Theater] – When Dream & Day Unite 18. Stewart Copeland [Police] – Don’t Stand So Close to Me 19. Tommy Lee [Mötley Crüe/Methods of Mayhem] – high flying solo, literally 20. Bill Ward [Black Sabbath] – War Pigs 21. Phil ‘Philthy Animal’ Taylor [Motörhead] – Overkill (long version) 22. Ringo Starr [Beatles] – Come Together 23. Taylor Hawkins [Foo Fighters] – All My Life 24. Jeff Porcaro [Toto] – unusual garden-related death! 25. Vinnie Colaiuta [Frank Zappa/solo] – Vinnie Colairuta LP 26. Lars Ulrich [Metallica] – being the man who pushed Metallica into the major league 27. Phil Rudd [AC/DC] – Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap 28. Scott Asheton [Stooges] – I Wanna Be Your Dog 29. Joey Kramer [Aerosmith] – Sweet Emotion 30. Simon Kirke [Free/Bad Company] – Bad Company (song) 31. Jimmy Chamberlin [Smashing Pumpkins/Zwan] – Siamese Dreams LP 32. Travis Barker [Blink 182/Box Car Racer/etc] – Box Car Racer LP 33. Terry Bozzio [Frank Zappa/etc] – Black Page 34. Matt Cameron [Soundgarden/Pearl Jam] – Spoonman 35. Rat Scabies [Damned] – Machine Gun Etiquette LP 36. Thunderstick [Samson/Thunderstick] – his cage! 37. Roger Taylor [Queen] – Radio Ga Ga 38. Brian Downey [Thin Lizzy] – Live & Dangerous LP 39. Igor Cavalera [Sepultura] – Mass Hypnosis 40. Carmine Appice [Vanilla Fudge/Cactus/etc] – You Keep Me Hangin’ On 41. Brad Wilk [Rage Against the Machine/Audioslave] – Killing in the Name 42. Nick Mason [Pink Floyd] – Summer of ‘68 43. Billy Cobham [Mahavishnu Orch/Miles Davis/solo] – Spectrum solo LP 44. Cindy Blackman [Lenny Kravitz] – on stage 45. Tico Torres [Bon Jovi] – King of the Mountain 46. Tommy Aldridge [Black Oak Arkansas/Whitesnake/Ozzy] – live solo, with bare hands 47. Vinnie Paul [Pantera/Damageplan] – Cowboys From Hell LP 48. Denny Carmassi [Montrose/Heart/etc] – Rock Candy 49. Daniel Erlandson [Arch Enemy] – Burning Bridges LP 50. Topper Headon [Clash] – I Fought the Law

Oops again Bill is only N° 16 under Phil Collins and Carl Palmer, but long after N° 2 mr Nirvana drummer (I didn't knew his name until today )

Charlie Watts a top 10?????????

This proves my point, this lists from commercial magazines are not worth the paper in which they are written.

Iván

EDIT: Sorry Progger but I had to add this one from your "reliable" Classic Rock Magazine:

Rock's 30 Greatest Concept Albums (March 2003)

• 1.- Dark Side of the Moon . Pink Floyd (At least dubious if it was conceptual and still it's N° 1)
• 5. Antichrist Superstar - Marilyn Manson
• 13. Downward Spiral - Nine Inch Nails
• 14. Duke - Genesis (Was it even conceptual????)
• 28. Kilroy Was Here - Styx

ROFLMAO

Who made this law.  I don't know much, but I know my drumming and Bruford's best stuff was not with Crimson.  Fripp is a minimalist at heart and always wanted Bruford to just keep a steady pulse, esp with the second Bruford Fripp incarnation. Listen to Beelzebub or Five G to hear some of Bruford's more interesting drumming, and writing.

Collin's better album is Trick of the Tail; it is a drumming landmark again because of those wonderful tom-toms, which he now brings to the forefront although he uses them on The Lamb.  After Gabriel left he was able to come into his own as a drummer, and singer. I think I've come to realize that Trick is one of my fave Genesis albums; there is something beautiful and transcendent about the album that is very special. It has a very American folk rock sound, which I was listening to back in '76. Trick is probably inculcated into my way of hearing things because it was the perfect blend of prog rock and a lot of what I was hearing. I think it was also my first Genesis album.

The Ian Paice solo was The Mule unless they like Child in Time because he plays the cymbal bells. Speaking of which, where is Michael Giles, a better drummer than most of the people on the list as is Barry Barlowe who played with Jethro Tull, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page who are 'kinda' of rock big wigs. Steve Gadd played with Steely Dan and Paul Simon as well as Eric Clapton, but I guess they are all a bunch of no talents. And Virgil Donati, or is he just too good to be considered a 'rock' drummer.

Anybody who knows drumming would have Cobham at the top for being the first to play the high hat with his left hand rather then crossing, being one of the earliest drummers to go to a matched grip, and also and perfecting double bass drumming, which he does on Quadrant Four from Spectrum. He reinvented drumming. After that I'd have no problem with Bonham being second but Dave Grohl, isn't he a guitar player now? And Tommy Lee is there for his flying stunt.  I guess that Keith Emerson is the greatest keyboardist for doing it all fifteen years earlier.

PS  if all these record moguls, producers and the rock elite knew what they were talking about, we would be getting better music. Instead we have the endless crap that you hear now going on thirty+ years. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to rant.

Winter Wine wrote: I was going to give a well detailed, Thought out response, When I noticed, This thread is stupid! I've been reading down through so many ridiculous, unnecessary comparisons! Both bands are fantastic and have made music that very few can equal! never mind better! If you have any respect for either bands music, You'll stop treating their work like two dogs chasing a bunny. It's getting very stupid.

                                                            One likes SEBTP better, one prefers Relayer, merely subjective. I'm with Reayer BTW.

• 1.- Dark Side of the Moon . Pink Floyd (At least dubious if it was conceptual and still it's N° 1)
• 5. Antichrist Superstar - Marilyn Manson
• 13. Downward Spiral - Nine Inch Nails
• 14. Duke - Genesis (Was it even conceptual????)
• 28. Kilroy Was Here - Styx

LOSENDOS says - Genesis claim to fame is the unmatched sequence from Trespass to WAW 7 albums 8 disks. Noone else had a run like that. Which yes albums and which genesis album and what position were they.

So what about Yes from the initial album to Going for the One - all great albums - thats a total of 9 great albums.

The other point about Classic Album lists and drummers - you have to buy the mag and reply to the survey - so its a matter of peoples opinions rather than an expert one.  Isnt Led Zep 2 better than 4 - IMO it is

Pneubauer wrote: ^^^^ ivan is god of proggerbashing

It's not Proggerbashing my friend, It's that I hate dogmas except in Religion.

Let me tell you a story, when I graduated, my thesis was about the legal incompetibilities to be elected President of Prú. One of the teachers who was elected as jury on my grade said thet moral incapácity was equivalent to mental insanity due to the terms used in 1823 when our first Constitution was written (We had more than 20).

I said in my thesis that morality is a term that comes from the Greeks and implies the behaviour according to the standarts of society (Very rough here, I used 20 pages to talk abou morality).

Instead of having a 30 minutes graduation I had to deal with a three hour session, my mother and sister who went to see it were at the border of their seats because itwas almost a war between that jury and myself, we even usedthe Andrew Jackson Impeachement and the Richard Nixon case to prove that morality is a different thing that mental insanity, gladly that jury accepted my position as possible and I got a very high grade.

Somebody asked me why didn't I simply avoided that issue to make things easier, but I believe it was my duty to prevent younger students from being taught that crap, even if it would be harder for me.

The same is with Progger, he comes and says, "My opinion is the truth and anybody who doesn't accept it,  is an ignorant who knows nothing about music", well I don't accept this, even when I love Genesis I'm nobody to say it's a fact they were the best band, I give my opinion (and almost always add IMO or IMHO).

Sorry I can't deal with that, my atguments about politics and Religion with Sean and rotsky were long but absolutely respectful no one of us bashed the other because there were no reasons. When I argue with Micky it has a big percentage of joke between us, we enjoy it even when we agree in the basics.

But this guy  tries to teach us Prog using the Classic Rock Magazine, it's almost a joke!!!!!

If Progger wants to be arrogant, it's not my psoblem, but at least I ask arguments and at barely reliable sources, if somebody gives me The Classic Rock, the Rolling Stones Magazines or VH1 I have to post what kind of aberrations they write.

But what I hate more is that Progger writes something and then runs away not to answer questions.

Iván

It's not Proggerbashing my friend, It's that I hate dogmas except in Religion.>.

Why do you accept dogmas in religion?  Is it because you've just given up on any notion of religious faith? I think one of the reasons musical discourse can become dogmatic is that music is like religion to people and has been so closely linked historically to religion, in the most romantic sense if nothing else. It expresssed in ineffable

It is easier in academia to just go along with the ship and those who fight against status quo usually end up losing  the battle.  Case in point, myself who fought against the grain for over ten years in academia, both as a student and teacher. I realized that they really do not want to teach students becasue to teach them to think would fundamentally challenge the status quo.  We can't have workers who think after all.  Somebody needs to move the hands of the clock in Metropolis. There is something to be said for that.  The machine functions best when it is well oiled. In any event, I applaud you for railing against the status quo , taking the heat for it and coming out ahead. I think one expects that from lawyer.

I think there is some merit to what progger says.  I think that Genesis has always been overrated and probably Pink Floyd as well.  There are certainly bands that have been underrated, Gentle Giant and VDGG. I think  a more interesting question is to ask why they are so popular rather than complaining about their popularity. I would rather hear one strong, biased opinion than one hundred rants of how great some group is. The fundamental idea in progressive rock is that it is not based on popularity.  So no matter how many people love Genesis or Pink Floyd, it does not matter because that in itself does not grant value to the music. 

I think that Genesis and Pink Floyd are so popular because of what they were saying not only lyrically but in their music as well addresssing aspects of alienation so fundamental to modernity and perhaps trying to find a way out, a re-humanization of mankind so to speak. But most of the prog bands sang about these themes, as did GG and VDGG. That quest is still so crucial and the reason why prog won't die. For me, listening to prog caused me to take the road less traveled and that has not  alway been easy.  A matter of a fact it is down right impossible in today's world.  I wonder how many people who listen to prog have made a similiar choice in how they have lived their lives

For me...Genesis transcend categorization.  Whereas Yes's work functions more as period pieces.  That's not to say I don't enjoy Yes a lot, but they don't mean anywhere near as much to me.

ken4musiq wrote: It's not Proggerbashing my friend, It's that I hate dogmas except in Religion.>. Why do you accept dogmas in religion?  Is it because you've just given up on any notion of religious faith? By the contrary, Dogma is a truth that MUST only be accepted by faith, there's no requirement for a prove, by the contrary no prove in against is valid.   A dogma is the ultimate prove of faith.  I think one of the reasons musical discourse can become dogmatic is that music is like religion to people and has been so closely linked historically to religion, in the most romantic sense if nothing else. It expresssed in ineffable It is easier in academia to just go along with the ship and those who fight against status quo usually end up losing  the battle.  Case in point, myself who fought against the grain for over ten years in academia, both as a student and teacher. I realized that they really do not want to teach students becasue to teach them to think would fundamentally challenge the status quo.  We can't have workers who think after all.  Somebody needs to move the hands of the clock in Metropolis. There is something to be said for that.  The machine functions best when it is well oiled. In any event, I applaud you for railing against the status quo , taking the heat for it and coming out ahead. I think one expects that from lawyer. I think there is some merit to what progger says.  I think that Genesis has always been overrated and probably Pink Floyd as well.  There are certainly bands that have been underrated, Gentle Giant and VDGG. I think  a more interesting question is to ask why they are so popular rather than complaining about their popularity. I would rather hear one strong, biased opinion than one hundred rants of how great some group is. The fundamental idea in progressive rock is that it is not based on popularity.  So no matter how many people love Genesis or Pink Floyd, it does not matter because that in itself does not grant value to the music.  I think that Genesis and Pink Floyd are so popular because of what they were saying not only lyrically but in their music as well addresssing aspects of alienation so fundamental to modernity and perhaps trying to find a way out, a re-humanization of mankind so to speak. But most of the prog bands sang about these themes, as did GG and VDGG. That quest is still so crucial and the reason why prog won't die. For me, listening to prog caused me to take the road less traveled and that has not  alway been easy.  A matter of a fact it is down right impossible in today's world.  I wonder how many people who listen to prog have made a similiar choice in how they have lived their lives

Ken, I know a lot of members of this and other forums who don't like Genesis, and simply I don't care, most of them give reasons and arguments that are valid for them and deserve respect because are honest.

But phrases as:

• "Yes is better and those who don't agree are ignorants"
• "Genesis is overrated in PA, outside this site nobody cares about them" (I got statistics from two other sites frrom the Progressive Rock Webring where Genesis is better than here, of course he dissapeared)
• "What I say is the truth and those who don't agree are stupids"
• "Genesis fans are corrupt who have nothing to do but manipulate statistics"
• "After this thread is evident that most of the people here don't like Genesis" (When I counted the posts, Genesis was winning by far and again he vanished)
• Classic Rock Magazine considers Yes better than Genesis" (Classic Rock Magazine considers Kilroy was Here [Mr. Robotto] one of the best 30 conceptual albums ever and Charlie Watts better drummer than Collins, Palmer and Bruford [in that order])

Only prove that the guy is an arrogant flamer and fanboy.

Every time I found a flaw in his argument and asked him to explain it, the guy vanishes in the air and starts a new thread in other place just to attack Genesis at any cost.

I love to argue, as a fact I always discuss with Micky about ELO, but we never had problems, always our debates end with a joke, I debated with Trotsky about politics, with Sean about Religion and Kansas, and there's always something in common, at the end we are as friends as when we started, never lost temper and never attack each other, because we're here to discuss, but with class.

Progger lives to accuse the owners, administrators, collaborators, reviewers and members of Prog Archives of corruption, has done it at least 20 times, but he keeps comming...WHY? If we are so corrupt why does he insists?

And honestly, it's not hard to bash him, his arguments are so lame and lack of substance that seems he's a masochist asking to be bashed, I believe he loves to be proved wrong, his mouth (or fingers in the case of a PC keyboard) work at 100 MPH and his brain at 20 MPH.

When all this started I used to leave the threads but he insisted in bringing me back to bash him, and if he's a masochist....I'm a sadist in this case.

I seen threads in which not myself  but two or three members and sometimes 5 bash him and he insists, I think he finds some Freudian pleasure in being proved wrong.

Any merit his arguments may have are lost with this behaviour.

Iván

So what about Yes from the initial album to Going for the One - all great albums - thats a total of 9 great albums.

I wouldn't say the first two are great . The first is good and the second better. The sequence however was really broken with TFTO which is good in parts and dreadful in others so a long way from great. I only accredit The Beatles with 3 great albums ( Revolver , Seargeant Peppers and Abbey Road). Yes I accredit with five ( Yes album, Fragile CTTE, Relayer and Going for the One ). So although overall I rate Genesis and Yes equally imho Genesis had 8 great disks against Yes' five and a half (Time and a Word is almost great ).

Albums that are great throughout are rare.

LOSENDOS says

'I wouldn't say the first two are great . The first is good and the second better. The sequence however was really broken with TFTO which is good in parts and dreadful in others so a long way from great. I only accredit The Beatles with 3 great albums ( Revolver , Seargeant Peppers and Abbey Road). Yes I accredit with five ( Yes album, Fragile CTTE, Relayer and Going for the One ). So although overall I rate Genesis and Yes equally imho Genesis had 8 great disks against Yes' five and a half (Time and a Word is almost great ).

Albums that are great throughout are rare'.

LOSENDOS the above in red is an excellent point - they are very rare.  IMO - Trespass, Genesis Live, SEBTP are the only Genesis albums to achieve this.  But (I know I maybe alone - hope not) but I really do love all those first 9 Yes Albums.  Why - because each have there own character - you can see YES progressing - growing - changing styles.  Out of those 9 albums there are maybe just a few songs that dont hit the mark and they are actually on Yes Album.  TFTO can be boring, even Rick got sick of it.  But it was well constructed - original for the time and I do love the whole theme of the album.  Everyone knows it was mainly written by Anderson/Howe and hence it can be a little pretenious - but hell music is for enjoying and it gives me JOY.

Dont get me wrong I love Genesis and I always felt they sold there souls after W and W.  They went over to the DARK SIDE.  With only a few great songs been written in the 80's and 90's.  But even in the beginning they were bitty.  But those great bits could be awesome and take up most of the album.  Sound musicans and clever creators of music.  But YES members just had the edge.

Both of them I listen to though to sooth different musically moods.

kev2307 wrote: LOSENDOS says   'I wouldn't say the first two are great . The first is good and the second better. The sequence however was really broken with TFTO which is good in parts and dreadful in others so a long way from great. I only accredit The Beatles with 3 great albums ( Revolver , Seargeant Peppers and Abbey Road). Yes I accredit with five ( Yes album, Fragile CTTE, Relayer and Going for the One ). So although overall I rate Genesis and Yes equally imho Genesis had 8 great disks against Yes' five and a half (Time and a Word is almost great ). Albums that are great throughout are rare'. LOSENDOS the above in red is an excellent point - they are very rare.  IMO - Trespass, Genesis Live, SEBTP are the only Genesis albums to achieve this.  But (I know I maybe alone - hope not) but I really do love all those first 9 Yes Albums.  Why - because each have there own character - you can see YES progressing - growing - changing styles.  Out of those 9 albums there are maybe just a few songs that dont hit the mark and they are actually on Yes Album.  TFTO can be boring, even Rick got sick of it.  But it was well constructed - original for the time and I do love the whole theme of the album.  Everyone knows it was mainly written by Anderson/Howe and hence it can be a little pretenious - but hell music is for enjoying and it gives me JOY.   Dont get me wrong I love Genesis and I always felt they sold there souls after W and W.  They went over to the DARK SIDE.  With only a few great songs been written in the 80's and 90's.  But even in the beginning they were bitty.  But those great bits could be awesome and take up most of the album.  Sound musicans and clever creators of music.  But YES members just had the edge.   Both of them I listen to though to sooth different musically moods.

Basically, They both had long runs of creativity that not too many bands can easily match.

Albums that are great throughout are rare'.

LOSENDOS the above in red is an excellent point - they are very rare.  IMO - Trespass, Genesis Live, SEBTP are the only Genesis albums to achieve this.

  But (I know I maybe alone - hope not) but I really do love all those first 9 Yes Albums.  Why - because each have there own character - you can see YES progressing - growing - changing styles.  Out of those 9 albums there are maybe just a few songs that dont hit the mark and they are actually on Yes Album.  TFTO can be boring, even Rick got sick of it.  But it was well constructed - original for the time and I do love the whole theme of the album.  Everyone knows it was mainly written by Anderson/Howe and hence it can be a little pretenious - but hell music is for enjoying and it gives me JOY.

 Noone can dispute your taste. I'd query the ommision of Nursey Cryme, ATOTT and Foxtrot which I consider three very consistent albums.I'm curious to hear your objection to them. I can accept the Lamb has filler but the rest of it is so good to make up for it. The filler on Lamb such as Silent Sorrow and Arrival are experimental  and I find at least they are interesting whereas the filler onTFTO is   either Howe jamming , repeating themes pointlessly or nothing happening. It is then that TFTO bores me completely.

 Seems you are being more lenient in your assessment of Yes

dojonane wrote: ken4musiq, how can we say that Genesis were overrated as if its some quantifiable, scientific mandate that has proved itself through time and serves as the most universally valid theory on the matter? (as in physics, until another simpler, more expansive theory replaces it) i respect that it's your opinion, which you humbly pointed out yourself. I still just cant grasp how that sort of statement is even applicable here. Are sunsets overrated? how about jazz in general? decaf coffee? mexican food? For me, the absorption of ANY artform is best left at is weird, nebulous, spiritual base rather than excavated by TIME LIFE magazine and editorialized into a archive of diagrams. Rational thought confuses the creative muse (unless your writing a song to 'sound' complicated, which is more utility than poetry) this 'empirical' way of discussing something as ambiguous and interpersonal as 'which band we like more' just seems to miss the mark. its a bit like interpreting a sonnet with algebraic algorithims, or (the inverse metaphor) using finger paint to create a map of mollecular DNA. sure it can be done, but the means fundamentally conflict with the end and vice versa. don't get me wrong, i'm not blacklisting your views or claiming you have no right to feel as you do. i'm just wondering, towards this thread in particular, what the use of dressing up a raw, gritty, incalculable personal perspective as a rational, substanciated truth is (as ivan so sniper-like revealed progger's views to be) if were taking about average rainfall in iceland, lets get out our almanacs. discussing a band's role in history can still be done with objectivity, reasoning the specifics in an almost anthropological way. but making sweeping statements about a band's being overrated or underrated cheapens the romantic, quasi-exhibitionist point of these kinds of discussions. arent we all here to just sortof don a mask and dance around the stage, adopting different roles. its all just artifice, and it should be held in the spirit of a cafeteria foodfight (since thats about the level of seriousness these things can in the end amount to.) what's more, how can the genesis WE are discussing come out as more ovverrated. I'd be hard pressed to find a large contingent of the general public that were even aware of Gabriel as anyone other than 'that sledgehammer guy.' Sure, I'm more likely to hear Collins voice at my local CVS pharmacy then 'Awakening' coming in overhead, but not 'my' Collins, if you catch m'drift. I mean, have I ever even heard 'I know what I like' or any vaguely poppy Gabriel era stuff on the radio? Roundabout reigns supreme in the pre-programmed canons of classic rock. Thats been my experience at least. whoa, sorry for the essay heehee. This is just, you know, my thing.

Talking about music in quantifiable objective terms is problematic, athough it is done all the time. But we don't need to go there.  What am am asking is more routine than that.  

The popularity of Pink Floyd comes not only from Dark Side spending 730+ weeks in the Billboard top 200 but the popularity of The Wall, which I need only turn on my radio to hear somewhere. Genesis is also extremely popular; that popularity comes from the number of top 20 hits that caressed the airwaves of the 1980s by the band and Gabriel, as well. Both bands relied on their a great part of their popularity with works that are not progressive. Let's not forget, both Floyd and Genesis were stadium acts of the 1980s-90s as ELP was in the 1970s but was a stadium act that relied on a progressive aparratus. I still would not have wanted to see them at Cal Jam.

Fripp and Ian Anderson both steered from becoming stadium acts citing that it destroyed the unique quality of what their music was trying to do, reconnect with its audience.  I think that this relationship is the key foundation of what progressive rock is, what music is, and the demise of progressive rock in the late 1970s has often been cited as being caused by the bands loosing touch with the audience.

What is it that should really grant Floyd or Genesis stature over King Crimson, Jethro Tull, VDGG or Gentle Giant . . . in a progressive rock forum? Is it that they are more accessible and if so, then their popularity in such a forum is questionable. Pink Floyd is often overly accessible and simplistic, certainly lyrically as compared to Gabriel or Ian Anderson.  Wish You Were Here is virtually cover to cover in g minor/major.  Don't get me wrong; I enjoy Pink Floyd.  it was never a strain, however, to pick up a Floyd album and get into it as it may be to get into a Crimson or VDGG album.

What I am saying is not that Pink Floyd or Genesis are bad bands or not deserving of our adulation.  I am just questioning whether their popularity grossly out balances their true position in the genre.  Maybe it does not.  Perhaps Floyd and Genesis were the two bands who were most important in the genre.  They certainly did fully develop the narrative. But I think that they are the most overrated in the genre and not overrated because they are not great bands but over rated because their popularity out shines the unique contributions of other important acts to the point where one might think that Waters and Gabriel were really the exclusive visionaries of the genre.

The ambiguity of the genre is that although we the fans see it as something that is reacting against the mainstream of popular music, many of these acts wanted to be popular songwriters.  Waters and Genesis are examples but even Steve Howe left Yes because he wanted to be with a band that made albums that really sold well.  That's greedy, since Yes had several huge albums and Going for the One hit number one.

So we listen to Waters speak about how we all have been programmed to want a lifestyle we can't have, new car caviar and all that nonsense, but he criticizes the machine and then gets to live that  lifestyle. So all the effort I put into this essay will probably get someone to buy a Pink Flyd album and he'll but just that much richer. Like Johnny said, "Have you ever felt like you've been cheated."

I'm not particularly interested in either, but Yes has never created a Firth of Fifth or Watcher of the Skies (the best Genesis tracks IMO).

Genesis wins easily

Mine:

Albums:

The Yes Album > Tresspass

Fragile = Nursery Cryme

Foxtrot > Close To The Edge (only because I like Genesis more , and Supper's Readyyyyyy....)

Selling England By The Pound > Relayer

The Lamb > TFTO

A Trick Of The Tail > Going For The One

Members:

Gabriel > Anderson (though Anderson might be the best singer ever)

Banks = Wakeman (same for me, both awesome)

Collins > Bruford (don't like Bruford but hes a crazy drummer)

Howe = Hackett (same for me, both awesome)

Squire = Rutherford (same for me, both awesome)

LOSENDOS - In reply to your comments about Genesis - ATOTT - great album.  But parts of Cryme and Foxtrot bore me - Absent Friends, Harold, Can-Utility, Timetable plus parts of Supper Ready.  But there are some real gems - Fountain and the brilliant Watcher.

TFTO though is like a classical Album - the return to the underlying musical theme for each side but using different musical tones, instruments.

Overall I am more a YES fan but I think its because Genesis lost its way in the 80's and 90's by been more POPPY - were YES in the majority of cases retained the Progressive theme

OUNAMAHL says this _

'Albums:

The Yes Album > Tresspass

Fragile = Nursery Cryme

Foxtrot > Close To The Edge (only because I like Genesis more , and Supper's Readyyyyyy....) Come on man CTTE is completely the best album - Foxtrot is not completely brilliant

Selling England By The Pound > Relayer

The Lamb > TFTO - TFTO is classically built and holds ones attention completely (does LAMB) no it has a few weak tracks

A Trick Of The Tail > Going For The One - A do think this is a draw

Members:

Gabriel > Anderson (though Anderson might be the best singer ever)

Banks = Wakeman (same for me, both awesome) - I have seen both live and WAKEMAN is both instrumentally and charismacially more talented (has BANKS been invited to do as much work by other artists)

Collins > Bruford (don't like Bruford but hes a crazy drummer)

Howe = Hackett (same for me, both awesome)

Squire = Rutherford (same for me, both awesome) - Really like Rutherford but once again not in the same league when you look at bass playing (as I am one myself) Squire is a genius

Sorry mate IMO your well off the mark

Flying Dutchman wrote:   Overall, the two bands are almost equal IMO: at their best, they're about impossible to beat.  However, I prefer Yes by abit, mostly because of there more serious nature, and there subject matter (majestic stuff, Battles and such.)  What about you guys?

on the other hand I think in a lot of cases Genesis' lyrical material is more pertinent as reflections of society. They give social commentary and criticism which I think is a lot more relavent than majestic battles and such. So would majestic battles really be all that more serious? I mean just look at power metal (and some of those power metal guys do take that stuff seriously). On the other hand, Genesis shows that they're not afraid to have fun while commenting and criticizing society which is serious, but their having fun with it. So that's an interesting way to look at it.

Anyway I think Yes is absolutely fantastic but I like Genesis more.

[/QUOTE]
I would understand what you mean in full if I felt that it were these bands
truly progressive periods that garnered them this status. As I said before,
I have yet to hear Gabriel era Genesis (which is the Genesis we focus on in
these forums to a dominating degree) over Collins or Gabriel's solo work.

I don't really see how you are disagreeing with me, (which may be my fault because I tend to argue both sides against the middle.) It is the Gabriel era Genesis that grants the band their cult status and contributions to progressive rock.  Supper's Ready is one of the most important early prog works. And whether you like it or not,coming to grips with its meaning grants you a unique insight into the narrative of early prog. Same with Floyd.  It was the popular success of Dark Side and The Wall that brought them their popularity. But there works, esp Wish You Were Here really outlined the narrative of progressive rock in a very accessible way.

Their stadium status grants Genesis and Floyd their popularity.  Same with Yes, Tull and ELP but more so with Floyd and Genesis because, as you stated, their stadium years were years that they were doing music that was not as progressive as their earlier works.  

There is the contradiction in progressive rock of the 1970s.  It has an avant-garde attitude but many of its key players wanted to be popular songwriters and this is what I was trying to address. Some spoke out against the popular music industry, misuse of power, greed and materialism in modernity but were guilty of the same moral infractions. There is room for fans to feel a bit of moral outrage in that.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Stave Hackett.  "Music is not about competition." Simply put. Ultimately, it was the money and the competition it brought, that paved the way for progs downfall in the 1970s.

Yes and Genesis are my favourite bands. Maybe I like Yes a tiny little bit more, but not much.

What I particularly like about both bands is that they never made any bad record in the seventies. Such a large amount of great music. Most other bands were boring from time to time. Yes and Genesis were never boring.

That changed a bit in the '80's and '90's, but I don't know any band that made so much good music as Genesis and Yes.

Don't you think that the term overrated that you so easily use to describe Genesis is 100% subjective? You come here and with total authority say that people here are wrong, people which mostly have at least basic music studies or even complete ones, and even when some of them have not studied of music, have worried to devoure music and musical literature enough to be considered people that know what they like and why they like it.

Overrated means that they recieve more crefit than they deserve, which I believe is false. If we were talking about a local or even National Radio/Magazine where people jusst go and vote, I may agree, because the average listener (Not trying to be despective but realistic) votes for the coolest musician or the one that is in the peak of popularity.

But when you come to a specialized site (Not only  Prog' but also Rock, Jazz or even Punk), you find people that really cares for the genre, in the case of Prog most of us tend to over analyze the music, we lcarefully studu the influences, structures, instruments, musicians, tempos, etc). And the people in Prog Arcchives not only care about one band, we normally love a whole lot of bands.

People here or in any respectable site, not only votes for a band on a list, we take time to review albums, to explain our arguments, so I believe Genesis or any top 100 band and album deserves what they get, the lurkers that come and give contradictory ratings usually don't exceed the 5%, so I believe in the results.

If you add that not only here, but in Prog Archives, GEPT, Progressor and every site from the Progressive Rock Webring Genesis is well rated, well I start to think that you underrate Genesis.

Iván 

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Without a doubt, Peter Gabriel

Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: Close call, both very atmospheric.  If I had to choose, it would be Howe but only just.

Rutherford v. Squire: For individual bass playing ability I would go for Squire but Rutherford's style lends itself more to the music - the purveyor of the Taurus Bass pedal !  Rutherford for me.

Banks v. Wakeman: Genesis keys were a key ingredient and as I slightly prefer the Genesis sound all round it would have to be Banks.

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bill Bruford - the best technical prog drummer.

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album.  Yes had nutured into a fully fledged prog outfit at this point while Genesis were still on the learning curve.

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile.  Simply because it's my most memorable Yes album.

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Foxtrot.  The 1st Genesis classic.

Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England.  Not much can beat this !  Quite harsh to put it up against Relayer !

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - my top Genesis album

Garbs wrote: Members Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Without a doubt, Peter Gabriel Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: Close call, both very atmospheric.  If I had to choose, it would be Howe but only just. Rutherford v. Squire: For individual bass playing ability I would go for Squire but Rutherford's style lends itself more to the music - the purveyor of the Taurus Bass pedal !  Rutherford for me. Banks v. Wakeman: Genesis keys were a key ingredient and as I slightly prefer the Genesis sound all round it would have to be Banks. Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bill Bruford - the best technical prog drummer. Albums (Classic albums only) Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album.  Yes had nutured into a fully fledged prog outfit at this point while Genesis were still on the learning curve. Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile.  Simply because it's my most memorable Yes album. Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Foxtrot.  The 1st Genesis classic. Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England.  Not much can beat this !  Quite harsh to put it up against Relayer ! Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - my top Genesis album

You are a real Genesis fan boy.Foxtrot better than CTTE it's good but it's not that good.Gabriel and Banks better than Anderson and Wakemen highly debatable.With Gabriel I can understand he is a great front man but not a better singer.Wakeman is by far the better musician only Emerson comes close.As for your other this v that it is very close to call.CTTE is my fave album of all time with The Lamb a very close second.

Ivan,  I love Gabriel's Genesis but, it is only my opinion but, it is a damn good one como siempre hola de Escocia.

[/QUOTE]
I suppose I just fail to see the scales tipped as such in my boys' (Genesis')
favor. Isnt there another thread going right now on how uncharcteristic
and unprecedented an upset it is that the top album in the sitewide poll
belongs to Genesis rather then Yes anyhow? The proof is in the perverbial
pudding. People normally vote yes to Yes!! PInk Floyd I absolutely
understand, the import and gentle while still somehow menacing quality
of their mid period 70s albums obviously took them above and beyond
any progger's expectation for celebrity (if you want to label them as true
progressive many in these ranks might not get behind the dialogue.)
As for Genesis, I just have a hard time seeing how their earlier,
progressive works have instilled as much of a legacy on popular culture
as Yes' output during their 'classic' period. No one is contesting that
'Invisible Touch' outsold 'Close to the Edge' by some nations' national
deficit. I don't see how that should factor into the bands fanciful,
symphonic past being similarly bloated into public recognition as their
80s pop output. If anything, my feeling has always been the success of
later period Genesis moved their earlier works even FURTHER from the
public's scope of consumption, if not overshadowing it entirely. You
might think it would provide a linking back effect and that album sales for
your 'Foxtrot's' and 'Selling England's' would be stimulated. I'm sure
there's been some trickle, but the indellible stamp Collins' Genesis had on
the band's past is so blaringly obvious to me, I have a hard time reflecting
on how, again, MY genesis became overrated. Yes outshined Genesis in
the early to mid 70s strictly commercially speaking by miles. And in the
canons of progressive rock, Yes have always been mentioned before any
other band in my experience, often times Genesis' admission a secondary
or nonexistent one due to the (IMO) dwindling of the mythic, progressive
qualities their own 80s fluff curtailed.

Long story short, I see what you mean about Floyd, but as these Yes vs.
Genesis threads have often boiled down to, people find Yes' brand of
prog more accesible and more 'classic' sounding (hence it always being
played on classic rock radio) then Genesis who while still crafting some
endearingly memorable melodies failed to have a 'hit' appeal during their
progressive years. In fact, Tony Banks admits that up till Gabriel's
departure, the band would write songs intuitively which, if later pointed
out to have hit appeal, would be intentionally scrapped. That sounds like
obstinate, intentional obscurity to me. And in a way, I cherish that
approach if it yielded those kind of results!
If I start hearing 'The Lamb' or even 'I know what I like' (or, god forbid, a
'Cinema Show') on classic rock radio AT ALL, I might start seeing your
point.[/QUOTE]

It is sometimes hard to state a point without overstating it.  My favorite band is ELP, whom I prefer to either Yes or Genesis.  I'm a fan in that sense as you are a Genesis fan and others are Yes fans.  Yes is certainly represented well but ELP is not so certainly ELP is underated from that perspective. Perhaps the new book on ELP by Ed Macan coming out in April will remedy that. I would like to see more recognition for the contribution of Brain Salad Surgery, which is as important as The Court, Foxtrot, Thick as a Brick or any classic prog album.  I don't like the fact that ELP's relevence is being written out of prog history. The question as to why lies in how people feel about popularity and also sarcasm, satire and humor in music. They love satire in Floyd because it is so serious, but hate it in ELP.  You listen to Wish You Were Here and feel like slitting your wrists, but ELP talks about the same thing with humor and adds Benny the Bouncer to the mix. 

I think that where we can agree is that popularity should not designate how we listen to music or feel about the music we like and if anything this is what I was saying and trying to make a point about the avant-garde/popular contradition in classic prog. Your quote about Banks is interesting, as the reality that Genesis classic period does not fair well on classic rock radio, which I agree certainly does speak in their favor.  I think the Banks quote is questinable because songs like "I Know What I Like" do have a certain commercial appeal and even Watcher of the Skies could have been a hit. I have also read quotes from the band that said the opposite, that indeed they were trying to find a popular voice. Then beautiful thing about these bands is that they are all unique.  If finding that voice would have meant Genesis' losing their uniqueness, I am glad they steered from it. The only reason why some early Genesis songs were not a hit is a question to me, since back in the day this music was so popular. Scott Muni played the full Supper's Ready on WNEW in NY, though I could never get that station out where I lived.  If I had I would have gotten into Genesis much earlier.

ivan_2068 wrote: Overrated means that they recieve more crefit than they deserve, which I believe is false. If we were talking about a local or even National Radio/Magazine where people jusst go and vote, I may agree, because the average listener (Not trying to be despective but realistic) votes for the coolest musician or the one that is in the peak of popularity. But when you come to a specialized site (Not only  Prog' but also Rock, Jazz or even Punk), you find people that really cares for the genre, in the case of Prog most of us tend to over analyze the music, we lcarefully studu the influences, structures, instruments, musicians, tempos, etc). And the people in Prog Arcchives not only care about one band, we normally love a whole lot of bands. People here or in any respectable site, not only votes for a band on a list, we take time to review albums, to explain our arguments, so I believe Genesis or any top 100 band and album deserves what they get, the lurkers that come and give contradictory ratings usually don't exceed the 5%, so I believe in the results. If you add that not only here, but in Prog Archives, GEPT, Progressor and every site from the Progressive Rock Webring Genesis is well rated, well I start to think that you underrate Genesis. Iván

I understand that the great preference for Genesis is universal and even in the literature there has been a developing preference for Genesis over the last ten years. When I say that they are over rated I am saying that they are ganered more support than bands like Jethtro Tull, ELP Yes or Crimson when musically none of these bands is any better than any other band and again, are best understood as a whole. For us as ELP fans it is an insult to come to a site and see that people have underrated our band.  ELP in many ways defined the genre back in 1974, for better and worse. That should grant them a lasting place of influence in the annuls of prog rock.  To do otherwise is to rewrite history.

They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from >>

This is exactly what I am talking about. 

Firstly, you site all this rubbish as though it is fact.  You never say I think or in your opinion so don't get off on me because I have a differing opinion, which is exactly what you are doing and blaming me for doing.  You never respond to my posts that are insightful and interesting.  Only when I say Genesis is overrated, which I did not start and really is a trite thing to say but like I've said before, it gets people to repsond.  This was a battle that was here when I came and will be going on long after I have tired of it, which I have. In addition, in the last month I have listen to Selling England, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme about five times, Foxtrot about 15 about times.  Get Em Out By Friday is my favorite prog track I have said that before; I always defend it. Does that sound like a person who really has any issue with Genesis, the band?

Secondly, Genesis for all of its greatness released Duke and the like.  They got rid of Steve Hackett who you would admit was a major part of the greatness of the band sound. Gabriel released So and it had such lovely ditties as Sledgehammer and Big Time, which were catered to us ad naseum for the better part of 1986. But Genesis gets a big pass on all this and we can pick on Emo, well everyone knows he's a big egomaniac anyway. Well, I am just here to say. I am tired of that, as well.