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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 03:34 |
Hmm, good question... it's all to do with demographics.
We're a relatively small country for starters, so a lot of the progressive artists of the late '60s and '70s toured with each other, so they'd have thrown ideas off each other, as well been influenced by each other.
It's also to do with culture and again, that is related to the size of our country. Bands can cover a lot less distance over here and influence spreads. I would say in America, smaller bands are probably likely to be popular within a certain state and unless they become popular, their music is likely to stay within that state (obviously some will overlap states). In the modern age however, with the Internet revolution, bands can spread their music across the globe a lot easier.
And because American is such a big country, there are not enough records producers to go around, there are only a certain amount of major labels and they won't want to waste their money on too many bands/musicians, who invariably, could sound similar to each other.
The other major point, I believe, is related to education, not only of the listeners, but of the performers. A lot of prog musicians have good qualifications from Universities and are also more likely to rebel and be free thinkers and try new things all the time.
As others have said, it's also a language thing, English/American English/Canadian English is always going to be more popular than German/French/Spanish/Italian, et al., bands.
I am sure there are other important factors I have missed and of course, people will disagree with the above, that's expected.
Oh and one more thing, drugs seem to have made an important contribution. Yes, I know Americans took a lot of drugs in their day as well, but of course, it depended on the area they lived in, religious backgrounds, etc.
There a lot of things to consider.
Can somebody answer this:
If, we are indeed the leader of music in europe, are we so bad at the Eurovision Song Contest?
Not that I care, it's always a laugh and not serious.
I can answer that question partially: politics.
Note to Drakken Theaker: I think you'll find the turbojet engine was first made by the Germans, at least in production terms anyhow.
Edited by Geck0
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 02:57 |
Peter wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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I actually do happen to agree -- my favourite rock has long been British in bulk (Who, Zep, Beatles, Kinks, etc etc), but I am also crazy about many American rock acts (CCR, Velvets/Lou Reed, Tom Verlaine, Los Lobos, Adrian Belew, Zappa, etc etc) and when it comes to blues, jazz, country (not the sh*te you hear on the radio), bluegrass and folk, America clearly dominates -- just as Germany, Italy and the rest of the continent dominate classical, opera, electronica, etc.
BTW, as I too come from a very musical island, I think that some of Britain's high output of great, home-grown music is a factor of (relative) isolation: on an island, one is forced to entertain oneself, as it were. 
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It's perhaps ironic, that my favourite all time band is actually Canadian! 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 00:52 |
Blacksword wrote:
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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I actually do happen to agree -- my favourite rock has long been British in bulk (Who, Zep, Beatles, Kinks, etc etc), but I am also crazy about many American rock acts (CCR, Velvets/Lou Reed, Tom Verlaine, Los Lobos, Adrian Belew, Zappa, etc etc) and when it comes to blues, jazz, country (not the sh*te you hear on the radio), bluegrass and folk, America clearly dominates -- just as Germany, Italy and the rest of the continent dominate classical, opera, electronica, etc.
BTW, as I too come from a very musical island, I think that some of Britain's high output of great, home-grown music is a factor of (relative) isolation: on an island, one is forced to entertain oneself, as it were. 
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:49 |
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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elvile
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 24 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:44 |
well i would say the clear answer is $ , record companies are
either from the us or from britain, obviously bands from both countries
would have more opportunity
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
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Points: 31169
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:24 |
Just wanted to add that hopefully the American music of the 1950s can
get the credit for "planting the seed", as it were...once the music of
Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, et.al. made its way to the Liverpool
scene and the rest of England, the English devoured it and began their
long journey of not only creating the best 60s rock and roll but going
beyond and eventually giving us prog! Also note the influence of
the old American bluesmen on Zeppelin, Cream, etc.
Rule Britannia!  This "colonial" thanks you.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:07 |
Peter wrote:
Oops! Wrong button! |
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:56 |
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:52 |
As enjoyable as this thread is, when it comes to Zeuhl the UK has produced very little, although I'd argue that Guapo's last two albums are Zeuhl. Japan, on the other hand, has a thriving Zeuhl scene.
When it comes to RIO, Henry Cow may have pretty much invented/defined the genre in the 1970s, but the majority of the best bands since have come from either mainland Europe or North America.
So as far as my specialisms go, the UK is pretty insignificant. Mind you, in commercial terms Zeuhl and RIO are pretty much non existent, which maybe proves the point of this thread.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:49 |
(I am speaking only of English-speaking areas now.)
Britain (and Ireland) also produce better dramas, actors that look like normal people, etc.
A much longer tradition of "high" art (especially in literature) than in the colonies was a factor, plus, I think, a less commercial/superficial music/entertainment industry than in the dominant exporter of English-speaking art, the USA, I believe.
Plus, the influence of homegrown American music forms blues, jazz and even country played a major role in how American rock developed. Britain was more closely connected to the classical influences from the continent (and British isles traditional music).
Re Canada, our music output is hugely influenced by our giant southern neighbour.
I believe history and the rural "frontier" mentality (USA, Canada, Australia) vs a long-established, highly-developed largely urban civilization (Britain) played a role, too. 
Those are my considered thoughts on the matter.
Great thread idea, BTW!
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:46 |
White Queen wrote:
Why don't Bits sing with accents? Ive always wondered... |
Richard
Sinclair and Robert Wyatt are now being called English accented jazz
singers - especially when fellow Brit Jamie Callum sings in faux
American.
And one very long answer to the original question of this thread has
been tackled in detail by American Ed McCan in his prog book/thesis Rocking The Classics (OUPress)
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:33 |
White Queen wrote:
Why don't Bits sing with accents? Ive always wondered... |
Many do, actually.
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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White Queen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 218
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:30 |
Why don't Bits sing with accents?  Ive always wondered...
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Machinemessiah
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2005
Location: Santiago, Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 594
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:00 |
Can any of your british excellencies ask this question to Peter Gabriel for me please??? Thank you very much!!!!
...by the way, Is there someone that really can? 
Edited by Machinemessiah
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Space Dimentia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 25 2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 440
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:59 |
The answer is pure and simple: WE ARE ENGLISH! We INVNTED heavy rock/blues, heavy metal, prog-rock. We invented it all so naturally it we would be able to push/build up bands that are more mainstream. Everyone else just tagged along.
The Empire has nothing to do with it, sport has nothing to do with it (all though I agree yes with the sport factor), but musically I still think we are up in the lofty hieghts of joint first with America.
The scene though is differnet here, yes going out and playing live is important to get noticed but its not as essential or more important as in the US music scene which is why generally US bands have a better 'stage presence' then UK bands but here we place more importance on albums then live proformace which is why generally the Birts made/make better albums
Like I said we invented Rock and the majority of its sub-genres so Rule Britainnia! Magna Britainnia!
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Prog is music for the mind
Hear your Orphaned child!
Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
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Points: 2703
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:24 |
Yes, Brits were always good at doing and inventing things first, but they are not so good in maintaining their prime position in anything they invented or introduced to the rest of the world. Just thinking about sports at the moment - football, tennis, and snooker - the latter is just unbelievable - UK snooker champion is Chinese gentleman.
And what happened to the Empire where sun never sets down? - it is not there anymore....
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carefulwiththataxe
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2696
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:23 |
also, I must agree with ¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾, The
Darkness STINK!
 P-C x
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Wilcey
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:21 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
Perhaps the huge
possibilities to play gigs (the UK has a very vivid
circuit that started in the Sixties) along with the good
musical training and strong determination to
become a professional musician.. |
hmmmmmmmm, you see, I think most UK prog
bands would agree here, that the live circuit is FAR
more vivid the other side of the channel!
Getting brits off their bums to go to a gig can be hard
work!
Musical training? Well, almost all the musicans I
know have NO formal musical training, they are self
taught......... which I guess is where the
determination comes in!
What makes the Brits more determined? I dunno, I
think historically we've always been a stubborn
bunch.......... but the live scene is definately more
energised in holland, Germany, Italy etc etc......
P-C x
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
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Points: 6308
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 07:12 |
stechell wrote:
OK I started the topic and will give my opinion. Asked my Brit parents this question (should have started doing this!! ).
After several minutes of thinking they told me..."just because we've been always the first to change any existing schemes and being the first gives you the advantage of going one or two steps ahead". In terms of Prog, maybe they are right. The first to change Rock's image were The Beatles, then The Rolling Stones. When the world started to copy the British model, they decided to mix classical influence with Rock. Prog was born. Later, Punk appeared. Punk ruled the market until again they mixed it with Reggae, The Police appeared and the world got crazy and so on....
Do you agree with this??
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Yes and no.
I think english were overall talented to make this new musical directions popular.
But talking about prog specifically, i think german were somehow more inventive, but far less commercial.
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¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 107
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 07:06 |
I hate the darkness.
Bunch of Queen wannabes.

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~*~
.Fear.Is.No.Excuse.
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