Brutal/loud/nasty music that rules.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.

I agree with you there, Mike, but that is not what the originator of the thread seems to have had in mind. in my opinion "Vital", the live album of Van der Graasf Generator, is one of the most brutal albums of all time; yet somehow I have the feeling the originator of the thread would vehemently shake his head at my opinion


Edited by BaldJean

bluetailfly wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition. What do you mean exactly by "brutal" if not heavy, loud, noisy?

aggressive and violent. My english may not be good enough though ...

I know that this thread is more about the Metalcore/Grindcore/Hatecore/etc., but in the context of prog there are many subtle ways to make music brutal ... dark, menacing, etc.

BaldJean wrote: a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldJean wrote: a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.

it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view

BTW: Try out Ephel Duath (in particular: their album Painter's Palette) for an excellent example of a progressive Grindcore band. Well, they're post grindcore really ... but in the vocal their origin still shows quite dominantly. In their case I think that it really works.

You don't have the album? Well, create an account with www.emusic.com, install their Download Manager ... and download their album for free as part of the free trial! I created my account a few days ago and I love their selection of music, especially the really weird albums and the tons of live shows.

BaldJean wrote: I wouldn't call Peter Brötzmann "brutal"

Brutal, aggressive, violent, abrasive, harsh - all these adjectives describe Peter Brotzmann's music pretty well, IMO. 'Emotional' would also be a good word, but it's hardly at odds with the others... 

BaldJean wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldJean wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldJean wrote: a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level. it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view That is your prerogative ... and as I said, I feel the same way about some Grindcore bands. But I also feel that for example Kaipa, a soft and gentle retro symphonic prog rock band, are pretentious.  Kind of like the other extreme ... always friendly, soft and kind. I don't know Kaipa. but what you describe is exactly what I feel about Camel, for example

They're MUCH softer than Camel. Roine Stolt was in Kaipa in the mid to late 70s. I've only heard the samples, but it's just not the type of music I like.


Edited by meurglysIII

Manunkind wrote: You seem to be contradicting yourself, BaldJean. You say that not being honest is bad, and being honest is even worse. At the same time you admit to Gong's being tongue-in-cheek (therefore dishonest) and think Magma's apparent belief in Kobaia positive (when it seems that this belief hasn't done any good to Christian Vander's personality - maybe Kobaia is a sad and barren place after all? Please correct me if I'm wrong about Christian Vander's alleged unfriendliness and other negative traits.) Not to forget that good acting is a form of art and an honest headbutt is a broken nose. At the end of a G. G. Allin concert you'd have to scrub all the honesty off yourself with a hard sponge. Honesty doesn't have to be positive and, as such, it is a risky way to measure the quality of an aesthetic work.

if a band sings about how they would like to mutilate, kill and eat people, it would certainly be worse if they meant it, don't you agree? and maybe I am just a softie, but if it is meant humorous, it doesn't appeal to my kind of humor

I certainly did not introduce the term "honesty"

BaldJean wrote: if a band sings about how they would like to mutilate, kill and eat people, it would certainly be worse if they meant it, don't you agree? and maybe I am just a softie, but if it is meant humorous, it doesn't appeal to my kind of humor

Only a very small percentage of all brutal metal/hardcore bands are actually promoting aggression and violence in their lyrics - rather the reverse. And I think that virtually no *progressive* brutal metal/hardcore band promotes violence. Of course you have to analyze the lyrics as carefully as you would normal prog lyrics ...

Edited by MikeEnRegalia