any other fans of things like Black metal, Death metal, Grindcore, Hardcore, and other genres that tear away at the ears, often with screeming vocals and brutal heavy guitars?

I'm personally a big fan of bands in this area. A lot of whom are technically impressive and take nods from progressive bands, then again a lot who completely go in the other direction. Either way there's deffinitely an exhileration you can only get from these type of styles.

Some of my favorite bands include Emperor, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Pig Destroyer Cephalic Carnage, Brutal Truth and many others.

Anyone else enjoy this kind of stuff?

I don't like a lot of that ridiculously heavy metal stuff. There are a few representative bands of the styles I don't mind on occasion, but I can't take a lot of it at once, nor can I listen to a lot of different bands in that realm. Well, I can, but choose not to. Pig Destroyer and Nasum do well enough for me when it comes to Grind. Aborted is the only death metal band I enjoy, but that's partly because it makes me laugh sometimes.

I don't know if anyone knows about them, but Arsis is a great melodic death metal band that's pretty new. Very technical, but more interesting and well rounded than, say, Necrophagist, who are still very respectable for their technicality.

I'm trying to remember some more of these bands I still appreicate a bit, and here's what I can think of: The End, Mare, Burst, Converge, Nile, Transmission0, Wintersun, Buried Inside.

I don't listen to any of them anymore, but I still have an appreciation for what they do in their genres.

helofloki wrote: any other fans of things like Black metal, Death metal, Grindcore, Hardcore, and other genres that tear away at the ears, often with screeming vocals and brutal heavy guitars? I'm personally a big fan of bands in this area. A lot of whom are technically impressive and take nods from progressive bands, then again a lot who completely go in the other direction. Either way there's deffinitely an exhileration you can only get from these type of styles. Some of my favorite bands include Emperor, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Pig Destroyer Cephalic Carnage, Brutal Truth and many others. Anyone else enjoy this kind of stuff?

Why of course I am. I discovered prog before metal, but at the age of 12 I discovered metal and have been addicted to it ever since (now 28).

glass house wrote: Try the new cd's from  : Kataklysm, Scar Symmetry, Himsa and not to forget -  Gojira  !

Gojira is pretty good.

Anyone here like Between the Buried and Me?

TheProgtologist wrote: glass house wrote: Try the new cd's from  : Kataklysm, Scar Symmetry, Himsa and not to forget -  Gojira  ! Gojira is pretty good. Anyone here like Between the Buried and Me?

I like BTBAM...Particularly Alaska. They're very talented and well rounded. The first album was decent, The Silent Circus was an improvement, but I got tired of it after a while (minus a couple of tracks). I don't like their reliance on brutality and breakdowns so much on those albums. I hate the overuse of breakdowns. I know they're not the simple one chord type breakdowns here, but they just get so irritating. 

They built upon themselves even more with Alaska. It's more diverse and enjoyable (for me). I'm glad he used his singing voice a little more too. Backwards Marathon and Selkies are especially brilliant, musically and vocally (and what a note he hits in the former!). Other than "Croakies and Boatshoes," I love the whole album.

And didn't you guys clear them for the archives?

Moatilliatta wrote: TheProgtologist wrote: glass house wrote: Try the new cd's from  : Kataklysm, Scar Symmetry, Himsa and not to forget -  Gojira  ! Gojira is pretty good. Anyone here like Between the Buried and Me? I like BTBAM...Particularly Alaska. They're very talented and well rounded. The first album was decent, The Silent Circus was an improvement, but I got tired of it after a while (minus a couple of tracks). I don't like their reliance on brutality and breakdowns so much on those albums. I hate the overuse of breakdowns. I know they're not the simple one chord type breakdowns here, but they just get so irritating.  They built upon themselves even more with Alaska. It's more diverse and enjoyable (for me). I'm glad he used his singing voice a little more too. Backwards Marathon and Selkies are especially brilliant, musically and vocally (and what a note he hits in the former!). Other than "Croakies and Boatshoes," I love the whole album. And didn't you guys clear them for the archives?

I have BtBaM's debut,which is really good.I haven't heard The Silent Circus yet but I recently got Alaska and cannot stop playing that cd.Great stuff.

And yes,BtBaM have been cleared for addition by the prog metal team.

You can see all the prog metal teams activities(bands we are discussing,voting on,rejected,cleared and added)here:

http://www.ratingfreak.com/home/progarchives/progmetalchart.xhtml - http://www.ratingfreak.com/home/progarchives/progmetalchart. xhtml

TheProgtologist wrote: glass house wrote: Try the new cd's from  : Kataklysm, Scar Symmetry, Himsa and not to forget -  Gojira  ! Gojira is pretty good. Anyone here like Between the Buried and Me?

Me, Me....

But you already know that.

yeppp wrote: The noisiest album all time got to be Masonna-Frequency Lsd !!!! It's pure NOISE.. No melodies or anything traditional. I'm not so Fan of the "Noise " Genre, but i find some Merzbow albums pretty intresting, He's a classic.

I have Merzbow's Pulse Demon, it's awsome, but I have to take breaks between songs lol. It is deffinitely easier to listen to Anal c**t than it is to listen to a lot of noise haha. Do you listen to Sunno)) at all or any drone? that stuff's pretty cool

Glad to see the nice reaction here :). Between the Buried and Me I was gonna say, probably belongs on these archives haha, their last album, was totally prog. You guys deffinitely like some awsome stuff. For people who want some really sick (but great) sh*t I recomend Circle of Dead Children, some of the sickest grind ever.

And who up there said Mayhem doesn't make sense? Do you not agree with their views, or in cannabalism or burning down churches? well, me neither really, but I think Mayhem are great. De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is an essential for anyone who listens to black metal. Speaking of black metal I just recently started listening to Xasthur, that sh*t is awsome. They rule at atmosphere.

helofloki wrote: yeppp wrote: The noisiest album all time got to be Masonna-Frequency Lsd !!!! It's pure NOISE.. No melodies or anything traditional. I'm not so Fan of the "Noise " Genre, but i find some Merzbow albums pretty intresting, He's a classic. I have Merzbow's Pulse Demon, it's awsome, but I have to take breaks between songs lol. It is deffinitely easier to listen to Anal c**t than it is to listen to a lot of noise haha. Do you listen to Sunno)) at all or any drone? that stuff's pretty cool Glad to see the nice reaction here :). Between the Buried and Me I was gonna say, probably belongs on these archives haha, their last album, was totally prog. You guys deffinitely like some awsome stuff. For people who want some really sick (but great) sh*t I recomend Circle of Dead Children, some of the sickest grind ever. And who up there said Mayhem doesn't make sense? Do you not agree with their views, or in cannabalism or burning down churches? well, me neither really, but I think Mayhem are great. De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is an essential for anyone who listens to black metal. Speaking of black metal I just recently started listening to Xasthur, that sh*t is awsome. They rule at atmosphere.

I know from reading Metal Maniacs that Xasthur is a one-man band (Malefic), but what does the music sound like?  I've heard all sorts of superlatives, but what's the brass-tacks, take home message?

I love Dark Tranquility's CHARACTER, though I'd never put them in a "brutal/nasty" category; they're MUCH more melodic than most.  I also really like HATE CREW DEATHROLL by Children Of Bodom.

Let's see...

1. Krisiun: Bloodshed
2. Opeth: Deliverance
3. Cradle Of Filth: Midian
4. Deicide: Scars Of The Crucifix
5. Cannibal Corpse: ANYTHING is fair game.

By the way...I heard that the guy who plays drums for Circle Of Dead Children also plays with TODAY IS THE DAY...and that Steve from TITD is producing CODC. 

Bj-1 wrote: Meshuggah, Slayer, early Metallica, Fantômas..............Yummy!!

That's pretty tame in my book :P.

Anyway, as far as Xasthur goes, kind of Darkthroneish production, but softer. Heavy eary keyboards, and the guitar tracks mesh to create all sorts of cool ambiences. The vocals sound like they're recorded in some kind of echoey room and that they kind of echo into the microphone. Everything contributes to the atmosphere. However, my description does not do it justice, just download a song or two and give it a listen, it's really the only way to know.

I'm pretty happy with my own approach:

• 1 x Base Genre (Rock, Metal, ... + some established sub genres like Canterbury, Hardcore, Alternative Rock)

+

• 1 x Phase (Classic, Neo, Modern, Retro, Post)

+

• Progressive (Yes/No)

+

• Symphonic (Yes/No)

+

• 1 x Ethnic component (Folk/Italian/Spanish/...)

+

• n x Attributes (Multi-Genre, Technical, Quirky, Unusual/Weird, Psychedelic, Atmospheric/Ambient, Minimalistic, ...)

The good thing is that all inputs except the base genre are optional. You don't HAVE to be that specific, but you CAN.

Edit: This post is a little bit off topic - it was just a reply to BaldJean's post. But this thread is about Brutal metal, and I think that I'll add "brutal/aggressive" to my list of attributes - this makes my post slightly "in-topic".

When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog.

Anyway... for those who like ultra-slow doom metal, be sure to give Burning Witch and Thergothon a try.

Brutal death metal heads should check out Origin (preferably the 'Informis, Infinitas, Inhumanitas' album) and the less known, but fantastic Orchidectomy.  

EDIT: Mike, are you sure you've posted in the right thread?

Manunkind wrote: When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ...

Manunkind wrote: EDIT: Mike, are you sure you've posted in the right thread?

See my edited post.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Manunkind wrote: When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ...

To put it short - a thread entitled 'extreme metal' or 'brutal music' is just as clumsy as a thread entitled 'prog'.

BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it

I've been told the same thing about prog and I can only ridicule both opinions.

Manunkind wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Manunkind wrote: When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ...   To put it short - a thread entitled 'extreme metal' or 'brutal music' is just as clumsy as a thread entitled 'prog'.

When I read the thread title for the first time, I found it interesting. Why not search for "brutal music" ... independently of the genre?

Old Cradle Of Filth Albums, including Midian

First 2 Children Of Bodom Albums

Old In Flames albums

There are others, but not specific bands or albums. Lots of songs...

BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it

Failure.

Manunkind wrote: When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog. Anyway... for those who like ultra-slow doom metal, be sure to give Burning Witch and Thergothon a try. Brutal death metal heads should check out Origin (preferably the 'Informis, Infinitas, Inhumanitas' album) and the less known, but fantastic Orchidectomy.   EDIT: Mike, are you sure you've posted in the right thread?

Lol about the first part, yeah. I gave this thread a general name because I wasn't sure how well you guys might know this incredibly large area of music. It encompasses so many genres and sounds that it's ridiculous. I mean, I think it's just important for a people to understand also that not all "extreme" music is metal. Like  hardcore, is not metal for example. Though the two do seem to mix really closely. Plus Merzbow, well no one would even think Merzbow metal, but they are an earsplitting good time.

side question: Didn't Burning Witch essentially become Sunn0)) or does Sunn0)) just have some of their members?

and another recomendation, for fans of technical metal look no farther than Psycroptic and Spawn of Possession, both these band are absolutely awsome. Extreme technical skill and very heavy, and intense. Totally worth checking out. Not just tech for the sake of tech either, seriously these guys write really good stuff.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Manunkind wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Manunkind wrote: When one starts to put bands like Cradle of Filth, Cryptopsy, Dark Tranquility, Xasthur, Emperor, Slayer, Meshuggah, Circle of Dead Children and Sunn )) into one category labelled 'extreme metal' it's a sure sign one has been listening to too much prog. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ...   To put it short - a thread entitled 'extreme metal' or 'brutal music' is just as clumsy as a thread entitled 'prog'. When I read the thread title for the first time, I found it interesting. Why not search for "brutal music" ... independently of the genre?

Because you're going to get a bunch of non-brutal bands as recommendations. Cradle of Filth, Dark Tranquility etc. Seriously, if you're looking for brutal bands, brutal bands are what you should get. And I'm allergic to such incredibly generalizing labels.

But maybe you're right, I'm just being nitpicky here.

Helofloki - I'm not sure how many Burning Witch bands are in Sunn )) . What I do know is that Burning Witch are still doom metal (albeit CRUSHINGLY heavy and slow) and not drone. Highly recommended - if you can get it.

Props on the Spawn of Possession and Psycroptic recommendations, you could also try Martyr (Canada), Decrepit Birth and Disgorge (USA). Apart from the metal front, go for the late John Coltrane releases, Peter Brotzmann (especially "Machine Gun") and John Zorn's "Painkiller". Oh, and check out the samples on the Zeuhl page here, especially the bands Ruins and Bondage Fruit:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_LIST.asp?style=11 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_LIS T.asp?style=11

Baldjean - it's hard to ridicule something that doesn't take itself very seriously in the first place

Hrm, thanks for the Zeuhl recomendation, I'm gonna start a thread in a minute about Zeuhl in the recomendations section...

BaldJean wrote: helofloki wrote: BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it Failure. nonsense. if it bores me to death, it bores me to death. period. there is neither any failure nor would there be any success if I liked it and were enthusiastic about it. it is simply my taste of music. you are not the mentor of my musical taste. my personal opinion about ultra brutal music is that it is pretentious. if you like that kind of stuff, fine; I call that neither a failure nor a success. it is your personal taste. period again.

Can't we all just get along? 

BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it

BaldJean : When I see you on the 18th I will tie you to a chair and put headphones on you with the most brutal music I can find on untill you start to BANG your way to the floor. 

Seriously , I can understand if you or someone else don't like the stuff. Sometimes all it sounds like is noise, but we like it !

BaldJean wrote: helofloki wrote: BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it Failure. nonsense. if it bores me to death, it bores me to death. period. there is neither any failure nor would there be any success if I liked it and were enthusiastic about it. it is simply my taste of music. you are not the mentor of my musical taste. my personal opinion about ultra brutal music is that it is pretentious. if you like that kind of stuff, fine; I call that neither a failure nor a success. it is your personal taste. period again.

In what way is it pretentious? It'd be pretentious if these musicians actually believed the stuff they growled about etc.

The very few who do are/will soon be either dead or in prison.

The rest are in it to have fun playing the stuff - just like my cousin who is practising to become a death metal drummer. 

Manunkind wrote: BaldJean wrote: helofloki wrote: BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it Failure. nonsense. if it bores me to death, it bores me to death. period. there is neither any failure nor would there be any success if I liked it and were enthusiastic about it. it is simply my taste of music. you are not the mentor of my musical taste. my personal opinion about ultra brutal music is that it is pretentious. if you like that kind of stuff, fine; I call that neither a failure nor a success. it is your personal taste. period again. In what way is it pretentious? It'd be pretentious if these musicians actually believed the stuff they growled about etc. The very few who do are/will soon be either dead or in prison. The rest are in it to have fun playing the stuff - just like my cousin who is practising to become a death metal drummer.

"pretentious" stems from the verb "to pretend". if they don't believe it, they surely are pretending, hence they are pretentious

BaldJean wrote: Manunkind wrote: BaldJean wrote: helofloki wrote: BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it Failure. nonsense. if it bores me to death, it bores me to death. period. there is neither any failure nor would there be any success if I liked it and were enthusiastic about it. it is simply my taste of music. you are not the mentor of my musical taste. my personal opinion about ultra brutal music is that it is pretentious. if you like that kind of stuff, fine; I call that neither a failure nor a success. it is your personal taste. period again. In what way is it pretentious? It'd be pretentious if these musicians actually believed the stuff they growled about etc. The very few who do are/will soon be either dead or in prison. The rest are in it to have fun playing the stuff - just like my cousin who is practising to become a death metal drummer.  "pretentious" stems from the verb "to pretend". if they don't believe it, they surely are pretending, hence they are pretentious

That would also make Gong and Magma pretentious (unless Kobaia and planet Gong really exist). 

Manunkind wrote: It'd be pretentious if these musicians actually believed the stuff they growled about etc. The very few who do are/will soon be either dead or in prison.

Quite a number of them are. Black Metal band members have been burning churches, one member of Dissection got sentenced for murder, a member of a scandinavian Gothic Metal band hung himself last month (forgot the name) ...

The irony is that the bands which openly admit that they only "pretend" to be evil get bashed by the fans for not being "authentic" ... like for example Dimmu Borgir or Cradle of Filth.

BaldJean wrote: helofloki wrote: BaldJean wrote: the whole genré bores me to death. I can only ridicule it Failure. nonsense. if it bores me to death, it bores me to death. period. there is neither any failure nor would there be any success if I liked it and were enthusiastic about it. it is simply my taste of music. you are not the mentor of my musical taste. my personal opinion about ultra brutal music is that it is pretentious. if you like that kind of stuff, fine; I call that neither a failure nor a success. it is your personal taste. period again.

However, pretentious is still the wrong word. It does come from pretend, but it relates more to the idea of trying to hard to look fancy or be fancy but not being authentically fancy (you know like dream theater pwned!). And usually it refers to snobbery. There's nothing snobbish about brutal music :P. Furthermore a lot of it is straight from the heart just as much as any other stuff. So if you really think it's pretend, it's because you're not familiar with it at all and don't know anything about it (and most likely don't care about it at all and you don't really care if you're ignorant about it). This is fine, but brutal stuff is not pretend, there's a lot of heart in it. Band's like Pig Destroyer, Circle of Dead Children, Brutal Truth, et cetera take their music seriously and it shows if you're an appreciater of that music. In many ways I feel like it's more honest music than a lot of prog.

Manunkind wrote: BaldJean wrote: I don't think the music is honest. the brutality is a put-on act that is being sold as "honesty". you can't tell me this "bad guy" acting is honest. and if it were honest, it would be even worse. Is the "I'm from Planet Gong/Kobaia" acting honest? I guess not; and if it were it would be even worse for the members of Gong and Magma, wouldn't it? And it's not like metal bands make any money on the stuff they play and that they have five star touring conditions. Yet more often than not they're said to put up a great show, even though they probably know that later that evening they're going to have to argue with the club manager about their pay. A band that wasn't devoted to their music (I stress 'music', not lyrics) wouldn't put up with this. by the way, I love some brutal music; "Sea Shanties" by High Tide is in my opinion the most brutal album ever. a lot more brutal than the "brutal" bands of today Spoken like a tr00 metalhead - my band's more brutal than yours.

Christian Vander definitely is a madman; in the early days of Magma you were only allowed to enter the house they lived in if you wore black and spoke a little Kobaiahn at least. but that's a kind of lunacy that appeals to my sense of humor.

as to my comment about High Tide: I only mentioned them to explain I am not opposed to the idea of heavy music per se

Baldjean, it's obvious you've got a skewed view of "brutal" music. I don't really know if you really care how authentic it is, but I'm gonna try and express it anyway.

First of all, Grindcore is basically the ultimately intense manifestation of the punk mentality and is coming from the punk tradition. In this way it is very political and anti-establishment. So if you look strictly at say Brutal Truth's lyrics you find anti-establishment lyrics about things that they were really into at the time and still are even after the band has broken up. As well they took their music very seriously (which isn't necessarily a punk tradition thing I know) but I really want you to understand that these guys are not "pretenders" they're the real deal. And if you think that Brutal Music isn't tongue and cheek you've never heard of Anal c**t.

And finally, I could try all day and give you all sorts of examples why some (of course not all) brutal music has a truly authentic and honest flavor to it. But if you are going to refuse their honesty and authenticity no matter what, let me know I'm wasting my time arguing with you. But seriously you should understand that "brutal" is not really simply something that you can class all this different stuff in. It's a really extensive idea encompassing both honest and somewhat contrived artists. If you don't want to put in the effort to really understand the underpinnings of these styles, I'm totally cool with that. But at the same time that leaves your judgments on the subject fairly worthless.

Atheist, Necrophagist, Death and Opeth are probably my favorite prog/deathmetal bands. I also really dig Suffocation, Vital Remains, Pig destroyer, Napalm Death.... the list is endless. I discovered prog and metal at the same time so I am real big on both.

helofloki wrote: Baldjean, it's obvious you've got a skewed view of "brutal" music. I don't really know if you really care how authentic it is, but I'm gonna try and express it anyway. First of all, Grindcore is basically the ultimately intense manifestation of the punk mentality and is coming from the punk tradition. In this way it is very political and anti-establishment. So if you look strictly at say Brutal Truth's lyrics you find anti-establishment lyrics about things that they were really into at the time and still are even after the band has broken up. As well they took their music very seriously (which isn't necessarily a punk tradition thing I know) but I really want you to understand that these guys are not "pretenders" they're the real deal. And if you think that Brutal Music isn't tongue and cheek you've never heard of Anal c**t. And finally, I could try all day and give you all sorts of examples why some (of course not all) brutal music has a truly authentic and honest flavor to it. But if you are going to refuse their honesty and authenticity no matter what, let me know I'm wasting my time arguing with you. But seriously you should understand that "brutal" is not really simply something that you can class all this different stuff in. It's a really extensive idea encompassing both honest and somewhat contrived artists. If you don't want to put in the effort to really understand the underpinnings of these styles, I'm totally cool with that. But at the same time that leaves your judgments on the subject fairly worthless.

the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

BaldJean wrote: the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

Alright well, I'll admit often bands that are "brutal" all the time often don't have a lot of dynamic changes. I would still argue that the music can be very interesting, but as you said earlier, this is most likely a matter of subjective taste.

BaldJean wrote: the problem I have with "brutal" is quite a different one. either a band is really brutal all the time, then I find that monotonous and uninteresting and simply boring. or they are not brutal all the time; in that case I would not use the adjective "brutal" in the first place. simple as that

It's odd ... for most progressive styles it doesn't seem to be a problem that they're really "gentle" all the time. I agree that to some extent interesting music is always full of contrast, but IMO the mood of the music doesn't have to change all the time.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition.

What do you mean exactly by "brutal" if not heavy, loud, noisy?

bluetailfly wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Now you're generalizing ... "brutal" doesn't imply "heavy", "loud" or "noisy". And as I said above, most brutal progressive music varies many aspects of their music. Most of the music is not 100% brutal all the time ... and even in brutal passages there is much variation in style, volume (dynamics) and composition. What do you mean exactly by "brutal" if not heavy, loud, noisy?

aggressive and violent. My english may not be good enough though ...

I know that this thread is more about the Metalcore/Grindcore/Hatecore/etc., but in the context of prog there are many subtle ways to make music brutal ... dark, menacing, etc.

BaldJean wrote: a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore

granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level.

BaldJean wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldJean wrote: a simple single dissonant and distorted chord thrown into a melodic and harmonious phrase can be a lot more brutal than any grindcore granted. But what I read between your lines is that most grindcore is not truly brutal, but some kind of phony or pretentious brutality by imature, "angsty" teenagers. That is not true ... there are some good grindcore bands. Although I would agree that many of them are bland and emphasize the brutality so much that all contrast or reference is lost. But it has to be decided on the band or album level. it is indeed the impression I get from that kind of music, Mike. even if it is meant honest, the question is: does it appear honest to the listener? to me it doesn't. less is more sometimes; this "overkill" seems to be unnecessary to me from an artistic point of view

That is your prerogative ... and as I said, I feel the same way about some Grindcore bands. But I also feel that for example Kaipa, a soft and gentle retro symphonic prog rock band, are pretentious.  Kind of like the other extreme ... always friendly, soft and kind.

BTW: Try out Ephel Duath (in particular: their album Painter's Palette) for an excellent example of a progressive Grindcore band. Well, they're post grindcore really ... but in the vocal their origin still shows quite dominantly. In their case I think that it really works.

You don't have the album? Well, create an account with http://www.emusic.com - www.emusic.com , install their Download Manager ... and download their album for free as part of the free trial! I created my account a few days ago and I love their selection of music, especially the really weird albums and the tons of live shows.

BaldJean wrote: I wouldn't call Peter Brötzmann "brutal"

Brutal, aggressive, violent, abrasive, harsh - all these adjectives describe Peter Brotzmann's music pretty well, IMO. 'Emotional' would also be a good word, but it's hardly at odds with the others... 

BaldJean wrote: I don't know Kaipa. but what you describe is exactly what I feel about Camel, for example

Kaipa are much worse than Camel IMO ... at least their recent albums. I haven't heard those from the 70s, so I can't say anything about them.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, BaldJean. You say that not being honest is bad, and being honest is even worse. At the same time you admit to Gong's being tongue-in-cheek (therefore dishonest) and think Magma's apparent belief in Kobaia positive (when it seems that this belief hasn't done any good to Christian Vander's personality - maybe Kobaia is a sad and barren place after all? Please correct me if I'm wrong about Christian Vander's alleged unfriendliness and other negative traits.)

Not to forget that good acting is a form of art and an honest headbutt is a broken nose. At the end of a G. G. Allin concert you'd have to scrub all the honesty off yourself with a hard sponge. Honesty doesn't have to be positive and, as such, it is a risky way to measure the quality of an aesthetic work.

BaldJean wrote: Manunkind wrote: You seem to be contradicting yourself, BaldJean. You say that not being honest is bad, and being honest is even worse. At the same time you admit to Gong's being tongue-in-cheek (therefore dishonest) and think Magma's apparent belief in Kobaia positive (when it seems that this belief hasn't done any good to Christian Vander's personality - maybe Kobaia is a sad and barren place after all? Please correct me if I'm wrong about Christian Vander's alleged unfriendliness and other negative traits.) Not to forget that good acting is a form of art and an honest headbutt is a broken nose. At the end of a G. G. Allin concert you'd have to scrub all the honesty off yourself with a hard sponge. Honesty doesn't have to be positive and, as such, it is a risky way to measure the quality of an aesthetic work. if a band sings about how they would like to mutilate, kill and eat people, it would certainly be worse if they meant it, don't you agree? and maybe I am just a softie, but if it is meant humorous, it doesn't appeal to my kind of humor

Where did I say or imply that I would want those bands to be honest about killing etc.? Actually I think I made my stance about the value of honesty clear with the headbutt and the G. G. Allin reference.

And I'm not forcing you to like it, dislike them all you want, I'm just trying to say that your not linking them because they're 'dishonest' is dodgy, not least because it you love Gong despite their dishonesty.

BaldJean wrote: if a band sings about how they would like to mutilate, kill and eat people, it would certainly be worse if they meant it, don't you agree? and maybe I am just a softie, but if it is meant humorous, it doesn't appeal to my kind of humor

Only a very small percentage of all brutal metal/hardcore bands are actually promoting aggression and violence in their lyrics - rather the reverse. And I think that virtually no *progressive* brutal metal/hardcore band promotes violence. Of course you have to analyze the lyrics as carefully as you would normal prog lyrics ...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldJean wrote: if a band sings about how they would like to mutilate, kill and eat people, it would certainly be worse if they meant it, don't you agree? and maybe I am just a softie, but if it is meant humorous, it doesn't appeal to my kind of humor Only a very small percentage of all brutal metal/hardcore bands are actually promoting aggression and violence in their lyrics - rather the reverse. And I think that virtually no *progressive* brutal metal/hardcore band promotes violence. Of course you have to analyze the lyrics as carefully as you would normal prog lyrics ...

Whether the majority passively promotes aggression or not is open to debate - let's put it this way, rather: whenever I pass someone in an extreme metal t-shirt, the thought of being robbed or assaulted by that person never crosses my mind. And just as with any other genre, the characters of extreme metal musicians vary - from madmen like Euronymous (R. I. P.) to open, friendly and good-natured people like the musicians of Cannibal Corpse, Krisiun, extreme metal drummers like Derek Roddy, Tony Laureano and Flo Mounier or the late Dimebag Darrell (R. I. P.) of Pantera and Damageplan fame. 

When I see all these bands with symbols of inverted crosses on their albums it does become a bit disturbing. The one member of the band Deicide even has an upside down cross carved on his forehead. I´m not even a Christian and I still find it disturbing. Another bizarre thing is that they only seem to attack Christianity but don´t seem to have the balls to attack other religions like Islam probably because of fear of what will happen to them.

Imagine a Prog band with a vocalist with a carved Inverted Cross on his forehead 

Dr Know wrote: When I see all these bands with symbols of inverted crosses on their albums it does become a bit disturbing. The one member of the band Deicide even has an upside down cross carved on his forehead. I´m not even a Christian and I still find it disturbing. Another bizarre thing is that they only seem to attack Christianity but don´t seem to have the balls to attack other religions like Islam probably because of fear of what will happen to them. Imagine a Prog band with a vocalist with a carved Inverted Cross on his forehead

Mmmmm, that would be Jon Anderson    

Dr Know wrote: When I see all these bands with symbols of inverted crosses on their albums it does become a bit disturbing. The one member of the band Deicide even has an upside down cross carved on his forehead. I´m not even a Christian and I still find it disturbing. Another bizarre thing is that they only seem to attack Christianity but don´t seem to have the balls to attack other religions like Islam probably because of fear of what will happen to them. Imagine a Prog band with a vocalist with a carved Inverted Cross on his forehead

Glen Benton's inverted cross is not disturbing, it's just stupid. And it's still nothing compared to what Iggy Pop used to do on stage, for example.

Manunkind wrote: John Coltrane's "Ascension"... what's so 'ascension-like' about a bunch of guys basically spitting their lungs through their horns and trumpets and the piano/bass/drums section whacking the hell out of their instruments... even if it is supremely logical from the structural point of view. In the top ten of the most aggressive albums ever, and yet it's called "Ascension". And it's hardly the only spiritually-inclined aggressive album. I love that album, BTW, it's as brutal as a lick from one of those million-kilometer flames pouring out of the sun and intensely spiritual as well.

"Ascension" does not necessarily mean "Ascension to Heaven"; Coltrane may just as well describe the toil and labor of ascending a very steep mountain

BaldJean wrote: Manunkind wrote: John Coltrane's "Ascension"... what's so 'ascension-like' about a bunch of guys basically spitting their lungs through their horns and trumpets and the piano/bass/drums section whacking the hell out of their instruments... even if it is supremely logical from the structural point of view. In the top ten of the most aggressive albums ever, and yet it's called "Ascension". And it's hardly the only spiritually-inclined aggressive album. I love that album, BTW, it's as brutal as a lick from one of those million-kilometer flames pouring out of the sun and intensely spiritual as well. "Ascension" does not necessarily mean "Ascension to Heaven"; Coltrane may just as well describe the toil and labor of ascending a very steep mountain

... at the top of which there is release - not that the release was significantly different from the ascension itself. 

Manunkind wrote: BaldJean wrote: Manunkind wrote: John Coltrane's "Ascension"... what's so 'ascension-like' about a bunch of guys basically spitting their lungs through their horns and trumpets and the piano/bass/drums section whacking the hell out of their instruments... even if it is supremely logical from the structural point of view. In the top ten of the most aggressive albums ever, and yet it's called "Ascension". And it's hardly the only spiritually-inclined aggressive album. I love that album, BTW, it's as brutal as a lick from one of those million-kilometer flames pouring out of the sun and intensely spiritual as well. "Ascension" does not necessarily mean "Ascension to Heaven"; Coltrane may just as well describe the toil and labor of ascending a very steep mountain ... at the top of which there is release - not that the release was significantly different from the ascension itself.

And the choice of the title can't have been coincidental - sure, 'ascension' could also mean 'climb' here, but whereas 'ascension' has religious connotations, 'climb' doesn't. Christ's ascension was a moment of wonder, clarity and serenity, not toil. I think Coltrane's wasn't really different.

Oh, and BTW, you do like to play "Diablo", don't you?

^ I play Counter-Strike: Source and I guess that it could be seen as a way to project my real life aggression towards harmless "targets" ... but I never project real life persons onto the nameless opponents that I fight in that game. If I do then it must be on a subconscious level ...

arnold stirrup wrote: Does Sonic Youth count?

I guess they're kind of noisy. so sure why not.