Swedish progg vs. progressive rock

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   Since this seemed the right place to post...

In the end of the 60s a musical and political movement a bit similar to
the hippie-movement in the US started in Sweden, called
"progg-rörelsen" (The progg-movement). I taught equality, fraternity,
solidarity (the usual socialistic agenda, from die-hard communists and
anarchists to more moderate ones) and, above all, that everyone
could play music. The progg-movement was very innovative and
influential, and its legacy can still be seen in Swedish culture, among
Swedish youngsters, in Swedish music etc.  There are few persons
in Sweden who can't sing along in at least one progg song, and some of
the old proggers are still touring and recording new albums. 

Now, what the heck does this have to do with progressive rock, other than the obvious relation in names?

Well, to me, the two kinds of music has always been somewhat
interconnected, on the same spectra of music, so to say, namely the
non-commercial, progressive part. As evidence, I can point out that
some bands, like Änglagård, Träd, Gräs och Stenar, Trettioåriga
Kriget  and Kebnekajse are both considered progg bands and
progressive rock bands by their different listeners. So, in what ways
are progg and progressive rock related, and in what ways are they not?
And, where does the line go between progg bands that can be considered
progressive rock and progg bands that can't? I'm a fan of progg, but
due to being born too late and not having that much money to move
around with (studying pays no good), it's hard for me to get ahold of
progg music , and I'm sure there are much more experienced progg
listeners here that can help and elaborate this discussion further,
but  I'll at least make a try, and I'll make that try with help of
the "A definition of Progressive Rock" that can be find here at
progarchives.

Progressive rock ("prog")
is an ambitious, eclectic, and often grandiose style of rock music
which arose in the late 1960s principally in England, reaching the peak
of its popularity in the early 1970s, but continuing as a musical form
to this day. Progressive rock was largely a European movement, and drew
most of its influences from classical music and jazz fusion, in
contrast to American rock, which was influenced by rhythm & blues
and country, although there are notable exceptions in the New World
such as Kansas and Rush — considered by many to be the finest examples
of the form. Over the years various sub-genres of progressive rock have
emerged, such as symphonic rock, art rock and progressive metal.

Well, both
genres were created at the same time, in the same era and did have
somewhat similar intentions. But whereas progressive music was a genre,
though hard to define, progg was more of a cultural movement than just
a musical movement/genre. And whereas some bands were very ambitious
with their music (Trettioåriga Kriget, Hoola Bandoola Band) others
weren't (Philemon Arthur & The Dung, Gudibrallan), others relied
more on the texts (Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget) and yet more would change and
get more ambitious in the end (Nationalteatern) They both took their
musical influences from mostly the same place: rock, classic and jazz.
The part of sub-genres is interesting. Could one consider progg to be a
sub-genre, and to what extent?

Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the
limitations of radio formatted rock and pop, and "progress" rock to the
point that it could achieve the sophistication of jazz or classical
music. It is admired by its fans for its complexity, requiring a high
level of musical virtuosity to perform. Critics have often derided the
genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such
stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock
is difficult to define in a single conclusive way. Outspoken King
Crimson leader Robert Fripp has voiced his disdain for the term. The
major acts that defined the genre in the 1970s (Yes, Genesis, Emerson
Lake and Palmer, Rush and King Crimson) do not sound alike. There is
also debate on whether bands such as The Beatles, Phish, and Radiohead
belong to the genre.

Progg was a
movement that was partly very political, and above all it was a
movement of the people. Everyone should be included and none excluded
(except for the occassional capitalist and fascist). It wanted to be an
alternative to commercial music, and many bands that are now famous
started with much will and little talent (Nationalteatern being the
prime example: a theatre group who learnt to play the bass on their way
to the studio when they were to record their first album), but there
were progg bands who resented the great amount of untalented people who
were allowed to create "music" as well. Just as with progressive rock,
it's very hard to define as a genre, and some even go so far as to say
that it includes all swedish music from a certain time period (about
1967-1982) that wasn't commercial. (partly taken from www.progg.se)

Some common, though not universal, elements of progressive rock include:
Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with
intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to
grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest
nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by
Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a
Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis'
"Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the
60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and
"Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings.                                                                                                     

  Long
compositions are quite unusual amongst most progg bands (with an
exception of those that are already known as progressive rock bands)
but there are exceptions, such as Gunder Hägg's "Kalla Kriget" and
Nationalteatern's "Rövarkungens Ö".

Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives,
covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion,
war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands
(especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing
politics and social issues.
Here,
the two movements coincide almost completely. Nationalteatern released
albums in form of fairy-tale plays, almost all bands were political in
some way, all (as far as I know) left-wing and social  issues were
the dominating topic of songs and albums.

Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an
entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of
vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed
gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by
Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more
recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and
Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by
Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring
themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album
is just "a bunch of songs".
  Concept
albums weren't as usual, but one can mention a lot of Nationalteatern's
works, for example "Kåldolmar och Kalsipper" and the fantastic
Tältprojektet, which wasn't only an album but an entire show about the
history of the working class.

Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.
Unusual
vocal styles were something that was kind of hard to avoid for the
progg bands. Since everyone could play, that meant that everyone could
sing as well. Philemon Arthur & The Dung immediately sweeps through
my mind, but also Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget and Träd, Gräs och Stenar.

Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard
instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer,
in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and
drums.
Whereas many bands didn't have any electric instruments, they were still used by many bands.

Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use
multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo
passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the
virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to
the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer
Neil Peart.
This
is (as far as I know) quite rare among progg bands. The bands were
often composed of people who, while being able to handle their
instruments, were no shining stars, and had no intentions to be. Solos
can be heard in many songs, of course, but they are seldom very
complex, and neither is the overall structure of most music. For most
bands, it was the lyrics that was important.

Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their
concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and
Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by
Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera,
and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull
recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned
the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to
Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra
(The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired
by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart.
Actually,
I have no idea. It would surprise me if it hadn't been done, and I'm
sure I've heard examples of it, but I can't recall anyone right now.
I'm sure other Swedes can help me out on this one.

An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by
The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the
prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of
their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the
band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular
artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings
and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they
could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding.
Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink
Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for
the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover
of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and
Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves
ever produced.
Art
was an important part for some bands, but never held a large importance
for the music itself, in my opinion. Instead, art was another part of
the whole progg-movement, mostly independent of the music.

So, as we can
see, they have quite a lot in common, but still, when you listen to a
progg song and then a progressive rock song, you can hear a clear
difference. But on the other hand, you can hear a distinct difference
between bands such as Pink Floyd and Ixthuluh as well, and they are
both considered to be progressive rock. Many important elements are
shared between the two genres, but the big difference for most bands
lies in the simplicity of the progg music vs. the complexity of
progressive rock. But this isn't true for all bands, on neither side,
and as I've said, some bands are considered both progg and progressive
rock. 

So, where to draw the line? Could Hoola Bandoola Band be considered
progressive rock? Nationalteatern? Tältprojektet? Nynningen? 
Isn't  Philemon Arthur & The Dung really a brilliant example
of avant-prog? 

Opinions, please!

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