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Swedish progg vs. progressive rock

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Topic: Swedish progg vs. progressive rock

Posted By: Heraclea
Subject: Swedish progg vs. progressive rock
Date Posted: November 30 2005 at 13:00

Since this seemed the right place to post...

In the end of the 60s a musical and political movement a bit similar to the hippie-movement in the US started in Sweden, called "progg-rörelsen" (The progg-movement). I taught equality, fraternity, solidarity (the usual socialistic agenda, from die-hard communists and anarchists to more moderate ones) and, above all, that everyone could play music. The progg-movement was very innovative and influential, and its legacy can still be seen in Swedish culture, among Swedish youngsters, in Swedish music etc. There are few persons in Sweden who can't sing along in at least one progg song, and some of the old proggers are still touring and recording new albums.

Now, what the heck does this have to do with progressive rock, other than the obvious relation in names?

Well, to me, the two kinds of music has always been somewhat interconnected, on the same spectra of music, so to say, namely the non-commercial, progressive part. As evidence, I can point out that some bands, like Änglagård, Träd, Gräs och Stenar, Trettioåriga Kriget and Kebnekajse are both considered progg bands and progressive rock bands by their different listeners. So, in what ways are progg and progressive rock related, and in what ways are they not? And, where does the line go between progg bands that can be considered progressive rock and progg bands that can't? I'm a fan of progg, but due to being born too late and not having that much money to move around with (studying pays no good), it's hard for me to get ahold of progg music , and I'm sure there are much more experienced progg listeners here that can help and elaborate this discussion further, but I'll at least make a try, and I'll make that try with help of the "A definition of Progressive Rock" that can be find here at progarchives.

Progressive rock ("prog") is an ambitious, eclectic, and often grandiose style of rock music which arose in the late 1960s principally in England, reaching the peak of its popularity in the early 1970s, but continuing as a musical form to this day. Progressive rock was largely a European movement, and drew most of its influences from classical music and jazz fusion, in contrast to American rock, which was influenced by rhythm & blues and country, although there are notable exceptions in the New World such as Kansas and Rush — considered by many to be the finest examples of the form. Over the years various sub-genres of progressive rock have emerged, such as symphonic rock, art rock and progressive metal.

Well, both genres were created at the same time, in the same era and did have somewhat similar intentions. But whereas progressive music was a genre, though hard to define, progg was more of a cultural movement than just a musical movement/genre. And whereas some bands were very ambitious with their music (Trettioåriga Kriget, Hoola Bandoola Band) others weren't (Philemon Arthur & The Dung, Gudibrallan), others relied more on the texts (Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget) and yet more would change and get more ambitious in the end (Nationalteatern) They both took their musical influences from mostly the same place: rock, classic and jazz. The part of sub-genres is interesting. Could one consider progg to be a sub-genre, and to what extent?

Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop, and "progress" rock to the point that it could achieve the sophistication of jazz or classical music. It is admired by its fans for its complexity, requiring a high level of musical virtuosity to perform. Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way. Outspoken King Crimson leader Robert Fripp has voiced his disdain for the term. The major acts that defined the genre in the 1970s (Yes, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Rush and King Crimson) do not sound alike. There is also debate on whether bands such as The Beatles, Phish, and Radiohead belong to the genre.

Progg was a movement that was partly very political, and above all it was a movement of the people. Everyone should be included and none excluded (except for the occassional capitalist and fascist). It wanted to be an alternative to commercial music, and many bands that are now famous started with much will and little talent (Nationalteatern being the prime example: a theatre group who learnt to play the bass on their way to the studio when they were to record their first album), but there were progg bands who resented the great amount of untalented people who were allowed to create "music" as well. Just as with progressive rock, it's very hard to define as a genre, and some even go so far as to say that it includes all swedish music from a certain time period (about 1967-1982) that wasn't commercial. (partly taken from www.progg.se)

Some common, though not universal, elements of progressive rock include:

Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings.
Long compositions are quite unusual amongst most progg bands (with an exception of those that are already known as progressive rock bands) but there are exceptions, such as Gunder Hägg's "Kalla Kriget" and Nationalteatern's "Rövarkungens Ö".

Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues.
Here, the two movements coincide almost completely. Nationalteatern released albums in form of fairy-tale plays, almost all bands were political in some way, all (as far as I know) left-wing and social issues were the dominating topic of songs and albums.
Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".
Concept albums weren't as usual, but one can mention a lot of Nationalteatern's works, for example "Kåldolmar och Kalsipper" and the fantastic Tältprojektet, which wasn't only an album but an entire show about the history of the working class.
Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.
Unusual vocal styles were something that was kind of hard to avoid for the progg bands. Since everyone could play, that meant that everyone could sing as well. Philemon Arthur & The Dung immediately sweeps through my mind, but also Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget and Träd, Gräs och Stenar.
Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums.
Whereas many bands didn't have any electric instruments, they were still used by many bands.
Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart.
This is (as far as I know) quite rare among progg bands. The bands were often composed of people who, while being able to handle their instruments, were no shining stars, and had no intentions to be. Solos can be heard in many songs, of course, but they are seldom very complex, and neither is the overall structure of most music. For most bands, it was the lyrics that was important.
Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra (The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart.
Actually, I have no idea. It would surprise me if it hadn't been done, and I'm sure I've heard examples of it, but I can't recall anyone right now. I'm sure other Swedes can help me out on this one.
An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced.
Art was an important part for some bands, but never held a large importance for the music itself, in my opinion. Instead, art was another part of the whole progg-movement, mostly independent of the music.

So, as we can see, they have quite a lot in common, but still, when you listen to a progg song and then a progressive rock song, you can hear a clear difference. But on the other hand, you can hear a distinct difference between bands such as Pink Floyd and Ixthuluh as well, and they are both considered to be progressive rock. Many important elements are shared between the two genres, but the big difference for most bands lies in the simplicity of the progg music vs. the complexity of progressive rock. But this isn't true for all bands, on neither side, and as I've said, some bands are considered both progg and progressive rock.

So, where to draw the line? Could Hoola Bandoola Band be considered progressive rock? Nationalteatern? Tältprojektet? Nynningen? Isn't Philemon Arthur & The Dung really a brilliant example of avant-prog?

Opinions, please!

Replies:

Posted By: Mnemosyne
Date Posted: December 01 2005 at 11:08

actually i think the "Progg" movement of sweden is more related to the Krautrock movement in Germany (which is a prog sub-genre), than to Progressive Rock as a whole...

-------------
I'm a Man-Owl-Fish.
Creator-Observer-Muse.

Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: December 01 2005 at 11:30

i'll read this tonight and react ti it tomorrow . sounds interesting

-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Posted By: Heraclea
Date Posted: December 14 2005 at 03:27

Originally posted by Mnemos<span style=font-family: times new roman,times,serif;>yne

Mnemosyne wrote:

actually i think the "Progg" movement of sweden is more related to the Krautrock movement in Germany (which is a prog sub-genre), than to Progressive Rock as a whole...

You might have a point there. I've listened a bit more to Krautrock since posting this, and there sure are some common elements, but at the same time, I can hear a lot of common elements with progg when I listen to Caravan as well. But an interesting question that can be asked out from your reasoning is: "Should progg be another sub-genre, then?" Considering the diversity of genres and bands already included here at ProgArchives, and the strong connections between progg and other progressive music (and with several progg bands being prog bands as well) Id' like to put myself carefully positive on that one.

Posted By: echoe
Date Posted: December 14 2005 at 14:04

there are some really good sweden pr.og bands in nowdays...like MAMMAS HAVRE...

Posted By: Heraclea
Date Posted: January 03 2006 at 12:11

Sean Trane wrote:

i'll read this tonight and react ti it tomorrow . sounds interesting

I'm still waiting for this reaction. Has it been forgotten of? And having listened to more progg and prog of different kinds, I've become more and more convinced of including progg as a sub-genre here. But what does everyone else say?

Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: January 06 2006 at 19:06

Heraclea wrote:

Since this seemed the right place to post...

So, where to draw the line? Could Hoola Bandoola Band be considered progressive rock? No, but I like "Cheops Pyramid". Nationalteatern? No, the only proggy song with them that I can think of is "Barn av vår tid". Tältprojektet?No, but they were way more ambitious than any of the 70s dinosaurs. Nynningen?No, but the idea of making rock out of Majakovskijs poems. Isn't Philemon Arthur & The Dung really a brilliant example of avant-prog? Hehe, yep!

Opinions, please!

Progg should not be added as a sub-genre to Prog IMHO but there are a more progg-bands that could be added in PA in other sub-genres. For example: Fläsket Brinner.

Posted By: Heraclea
Date Posted: January 07 2006 at 02:46

When it comes to Nationalteatern, what about "Rövarkungens Ö"? That certainly sounds proggy in my opinion. Then we have the consideration of their children stories, like "Kåldolmar & Kalsipper". Sure, it has a quite silly theme (but then, there are prog songs by very famous bands with sillier themes and lyrics), but it is, in a way, a concept album, and it includes many other prog elements.

When it comes to Hoola Bandoola Band, what in their sound make them less prog than Trettioåriga Kriget, really? Sure, Trettioåriga Kriget has some long, "pure" prog compositions, but most of what I've heard (all studio albums except one, I think) doesn't sound very much different than Hoola Bandoola or Nationalteatern to me, even though the political message isn't as obvious.

And you state yourself reasons for inclusion/prog elements, even though you don't agree with me. Why I personally am in favour of making progg a sub-genre is mostly because even though you can, in some ways, fit in bands like Philemon Arthur & The Dung, Arbete & Fritid etc. into the existing sub-genres, it goes, in some ways, against the intentions of the music and the musicians themselves.

Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: January 07 2006 at 15:33

Heraclea wrote:

When it comes to Hoola Bandoola Band, what in their sound make them less prog than Trettioåriga Kriget, really? Sure, Trettioåriga Kriget has some long, "pure" prog compositions, but most of what I've heard (all studio albums except one, I think) doesn't sound very much different than Hoola Bandoola or Nationalteatern to me, even though the political message isn't as obvious.

I haven't heard Trettioåriga kriget but I've heard Hoola Bandoola Band and in my ears they are just Rock.

Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 05:09

I saw Träd Gräs och Stenar (means Trees, Grass and Stones, great name!) last night. They played in my old Art Shcool Academy's Bar (Spasibar in Oslo). They were great! Most of their songs run over ten minutes, building up slowly. All the performances were suprisingly tight and well played. (Except a cover of 'Quinn the Eskimo', that was totally out of place.) Pshychedelic an spacey.

Their website http://www.tgs.nu - www.tgs.nu is ok, but you won't find any soundsamples. They have also gone under the names Pärson Sound, International Harvester and Harvester. The one song I've heard ('Sanningens Silverflod',) from a Swedish Progg collection, what my friends tell me, and the concert, makes me think thes should be in the archives.

Probably some Swedes on this site knows more about them than I do?

-------------
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me

Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 06:46

Once I got a promo from the duo Hansson & Karlsson, splendid Hammond driven jazzy progressive rock. They joined the bill with Zappa and Jimi Hendrix in Sweden! I hardly read anything about them. What's your opinion, Heraclea, are they progressive rock and deserve a place on Prog Archives?

By the way, my favorite Swedish bands are Landberk (awesome Mellotron on Lonely land), Anekdoten (from a KC clone turned into a band with a very distinctive progrock sound) and Simon Says (very alternating and dynamic progrock).

Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 06:57

This thread has sufficient references to prog for me to place it in the Prog Music lounge.

It's interesting too!

Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 12:32

Mnemosyne wrote:
actually i think the "Progg" movement of sweden is
more related to the Krautrock movement in Germany
(which is a prog sub-genre), than to Progressive
Rock as a whole...

guess what Swedish prog, French prog, Italian prog,
German prog are all just as much PROGRESSIVE
ROCK as English prog. Just different cultures, styles
and influences.

Now Prog Metal and Neo Prog may be something
else, maybe REGRESSIVE PROG!

Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 14:29

DallasBryan wrote:

.....
guess what Swedish prog, French prog, Italian prog,
German prog are all just as much PROGRESSIVE
ROCK as English prog. Just different cultures, styles
and influences.

Now Prog Metal and Neo Prog may be something
else, maybe REGRESSIVE PROG!

???

That's exactly what I think!

-------------
carefulwiththataxe

Posted By: nobody
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 18:38

The Parson Sound, International Harvester, Harvester and Trad, Gras och Stenar albums are absolutely essential, no prog collection can even hope to be complete without a few of them, especially these 2 masterpieces:

Great, great thread!

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"Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom I will provide!"

Posted By: Harkmark
Date Posted: March 05 2006 at 19:09

Check out http://www.silence.se. Albums by Älgarnas Trädgård, Bo Hansson, Kebnekaise, Samma/Zamla, Ragnarök, Träd, Gräs och Stenar, (International) Harvester etc. all streamed. And don't forget to listen to "Dagarnas skum" by Ragnarök. A truly beautiful song.

Posted By: S Lang
Date Posted: March 06 2006 at 14:03

In my youth (in the 70's) I had a sizeable record collection that included dozens of Scandinavian artists. Most of those would easily qualify for Prog, while some of them represented Jazzier elements. Scandinavian music has it's own, unmistakeable flavour - like Krautrock does - and I'd be very pleased to see more exposure of bands, releases.

Posted By: Heraclea
Date Posted: March 15 2006 at 11:48

Woah. 'Twas a while since I last checked in here. Nice to see that the thread is still alive and well. I have, though, thought a bit more over the progg vs. prog question (mainly by listening to music from both genres) and partly changed my stance on this. I'm still in favour of a "progg" sub-genre, but I don't think all the progg bands should be included, since there are some clear examples of "definately not progressive rock" like Knutna Nävar. Why am then still in favour of a "progg"-sub genre? Because I still think that many of the progg bands meet the criterias for being included here, but never saw themselves as anything but progg bands. Nationalteatern and Hoola Bandoola Band may not fit into progressive rock entirely musically, but they sure do lyrically, and also regarding their intentions with the music, which was truly progressive. I would not like to call this kind of progg bands for just "rock", since they aren't just "rock" but have clear progressive elements in their music, even though it might be of another sort than bands like Yes, Kansas, Amon Düül II, Caravan etc. Some bands are already included, and yet more should definately be included in either those respective sub-genres already existing, or into a new "progressive progg" sub-genre, which at least I am in favour of (prog-progg... what a name...).

I think DallasBryan's statement of "different cultures, just as progressive" is a quite fitting one. Anyone else who has opinions?

Posted By: BookAboutSalad
Date Posted: April 10 2006 at 19:17

Very interesting thread I've been thinking quite much about this.

And there are actually some progg-related bands on prog-archives, Samla Mammas Manna for example, are kind of progg in my view.

And I still can't wait until the day I can find Philemon Arthur on Rio-Avant and why not Mora Träsk?

Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 05:58

Well I've been re-listening to Kebnekaise recently and I had discovered Algarnas Tradgard last year! Both excellent bands well worth their inclusion in Folk Prog

Are there anymore such groups around?

Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 07:41

Hi,

the confusion between Swedish progg and progressive rock has a simple explanation. Progressive rock is called in sweden Symphonic rock. Progg on the contrary in Sweden is POLITICAL underground songs. Nothing to do with progressive rock what so ever. If some of these political bands did music that might sound like prog that is a coincidance. Usually Swedish progg is socialist or some other way socially critical songs that sound a bit raw and has some folk leanings.

Pirkka from Finland, who has a lot of swedish friends.

Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 07:45

This is extremely complicated...
An example of a swedish progg-band is Blå tåget ("the blue train"), a political band that was very left wing and had absolutely NOTHING to do with "our" prog, but somehow people here in sweden just love to mix the two genres up and iäve even heard people refer to Änglagård as "progg", putting them in the same pot as Blå Tåget and Nationalteatern, which is just... wrong. Therefore, swedish prog IS the same as italian, spanish, british, etc.. but swedish PROGG is a completely different thing. This might only be relevant to swedes, as others haven't heard of "proGG" and... i envy them. :)
Or i could be completely wrong, but in that case anyone is more than welcome to correct me.

Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 07:53

Well, you're not friends with ME, after you STOLE my post! :)

Posted By: pirkka
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 09:06

Evans wrote:

Well, you're not friends with ME, after you STOLE my post! :)

Hope I simplyfied things a little

Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 09:56

I'm just envious because you explained it a lot better than me. :)

Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: August 04 2006 at 12:17

There's a difference:

Prog:

Samla Mammas Manna

Kebnekaise

Progg:

Kebnekaise (On Their First Album, "Resa Mot Okänt Mål")

Blå Tåget

Hoola Bandoola Band

Grus i Dojjan

And i really think that Progg should be a subgenre on PA!