why modern prog doesn`t suck

prog o matic wrote: Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.    I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.   But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!   Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.   But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.   When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.   Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.   Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.   The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,   Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.    Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate  !   I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.

EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.

USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.

Iván

I knew you wouldn't apologize, because you believe you're the center of the world, and again I live from making investigations and using deduction to solve judicial cases, your phrases clearly show you live in USA, you're a Christian (Probably reborn) and the only things that affect you are those that happen in your lawn.

All people are equal in my Book no counrty is more important to the next ,

Are you sure?

Prog o matic wrote:

These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population

So...your own words prove that according to you, "little places" i was taking about don't matter for the big population:

1. Almost 2'000,000 humans killed in Cambodia with plastic bags in the head to save bullets.
2. 30'000 humble peasents killed in Perú by Shinning Path, who started their offensive in the late 70's.
3. Bolivia changing Governments even three times in a month with victims in each case.
4. Not precised thousand of persons killed in Chile by Pinochet's Government
5. I can't remember how many dissapeared citizens in Argentina by the Military Government
6. People from Ireland and England killing themselves every day during the 70's
7. People from Israel being attacked by terrorists daily or kidnapped and taken to Entebe where Idi Amin helped the terrorists.
8. A whole Olympic team massacred in Germany by Black September while the world kept playing, the world didn't even had the decency to close the olympic games.
9. American and VC soldiers and civilians killed each day in war that didn't ended.
10. Italian civilians and even Aldo Moro killed by explosions created by the Red Brigades or kidnapped and killed.
11. Baader Meinhoff, one of the most bloody terrorist movements kept Germany in terror.
12. Millions of citizens in Romania, Hungary, Poland and behind the iron curtain living without freedom.
13. Millions of Jewish and disidents sent to the gulags and Siberia only for having disagreements with the Politboureau
14. Millions killed by Idi Amin Dada who according to some people practiced canibalism (Not proved though)
15. The whole world threatened by a nuclear holocaust because of the cold war.
16. Afghanistan invaded by the Soviet Union (But in those days USA supported Afghanistan).
17. Thousand of cubans escaping from death in rafts to Miami.
18. Dictators as Stroesnner and Somoza still in the Government of their countries, being the alternative communist revolutions supoported by Cuba and USSR (In other words they had to jump from a boilling pot of water to hot pan full of oil).
19. Millions of black South Africans were treated worst than animals in their country by a small minority during the criminal Apartheid.
20. And many more that the rest of the members mentioned.

All this means nothing to the world according to you, because "These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population".

And who is the "great population" that ignores what happens in the world? Probably a bunch of rednecks who give a bad name to USA decent citizens.

But you could send your kids alone to school, the Ten Commandments ruled and we had great Prog, so it was the paradise. 

 If I was you I would properly read the whole post to properly put this thing into context,  just to exercise some fairness into things   Besides Ivan said some really stupid things

Which are the stupid things I said?

Every fact I mentioned is historic, it happened, I don't close my eyes, I worry about what happens ariound the world, maybe I'm stupid because I believe in justice for all mankind and that a human life in USA, China, Spain or Argentina is worth the same.

Was I the one who said that the world was a paradise in the 70's, that people on little countries don't count?

I never took things out of the context, I quoted fully your posts, word by word and aberration by aberration.

 so focus on your collaborater or rather question his motive  

My motive is to ask respect for lives in any part of the world, not only in big or little countries.

If you read my pervious discussions of Politics with intelligent guys like Trotsky you'll see that my political position is closer to USA than to any other country, I have been accused of facist, pro USA, etc, because I criticize what happens in any part of the world, I believe that freedom and democracy in USA is the best thing that could ever happened.

I'm pleased that the State Imperialism of USSR fall as a sand castle, I believe in freedom of all countries to choose their way of live, which was impossible in the 70's with a wall dividing Europe, so I don't have any hidden agenda.

While you were sending your kids to school alone and liing according to the Ten Commandments (For, you and tour closest relatives of course) I studied in a University dominated by radical Communists for 25 years, I was member of a group that brought democracy back to the students in a country where this was dangerous.

After we gained control there was never another strike (Before us, 50% of the years were lost in student strikes) so don't tell me I have hidden motives.

This forum  is full of USA citizens and most of them have shown a great sensibility for what happens around the world, some even care for the rights of the animals, but you say that what happens in little places doesn't matter and are only isolated cases.

Your sectarism is so great that you say:  "Once God meant the ten commandments"

Maybe for you (as a Christian) me as a Catholic and the Jewish community, but not for Hinduists who live in small countries as India with 700'000,000 believers or Moslems all around the world (There are decent ones who don't believe in violence) or the Budhists, Shintoists, etc.

It's obvious that you believe the world rotates around you, your community, your religion and your country, what happens in the "Little places" has no importance 

 (for the record the world econemy is based around how well America is doing )

I believe that Japan dominates the World economy (The most powerful banks are from Japan) and the Euro is stronger than the Dollar, so don't be so confident

War is about dollars , America has the wealth and is the only remaining Super Power, so Face reality (no I am not American) 

Maybe you're not USA native citizen  (But I believe you are, because only a USA resident calls him American when America means more than just USA), but you live in the small comfort of your "Christian" community (Real Christians care for the rest of the world as Jesus Christ taught us) and the rest of little places can go to hell.

 but any fool knows that compared to America we are all little countries (just a figure of speech) please  wake up !   

Don't change your words, that's not what you meant, your words are quoted and your despective comments talk for you:

The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan !

Only a redneck would speak words like this ones.

prog o matic wrote: Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same.  Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews,  Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens who lived in a bubble of false seccurity, they felt untocheable because since Pearl Harbor they were never attacked  in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same. Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972. 13 November 1972 in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed , he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad. The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's. The problems between England and the IRA or Spain and the ETA already existed in the 70's.  or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre !  The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong. 27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose. The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same ! The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment. I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on !  its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time.  The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that !  Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East, Cambodia (AKA The Democratic Kampuchea, where 50% of the citizens were killed with plastic bagas to save bullets) if it was a fantasy era. The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's. Iván "there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ? Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.

BTW: There was great Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.

Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was.  The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population, Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate  !

 My Mum said that the 70's were bleak times. (in the UK)

 In the early 70's for a while, the power was cut out every night at ten! due to a long strike. Thats hardly a happy country.

prog o matic wrote: I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will)  though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !

In first place I did no research, because the difference between you and me is that I care for the history of the world, not only for what happens in my backyard. I was a teenager in the 70's but still I had interest for what happened around the world, even when there was no CNN.

Probably rednecks as you don't know what happens outside your county and don't even care about it, but some people is different, there's something called newspapers that we read every morning and we are able to remember this things, but you probably buy them to read the comic strips and the sports.

And in second place, this last post completes your picture, your low self estime makes you think in terms of impressing the rest of the world, I don't need that, I know who I am, people  knows me here and knows what i'm talking about, and if they don't get it, well, it's their problem.

But I'm 100% sure that most progheads have enough sensibility to care for what happens in the world, even in those little places that you probably never heard about.

Iván