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lucas 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
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Points: 8138
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 Posted: February 02 2006 at 17:15 |
 Crushed Aria wrote:
To make a good BM band [...] It takes marriage to the soul of the music.
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Black metal has no soul and it's one of the worst musical genres ever, good only to satisfy teenagers' taste for blood and ultra violence. All black metal bands sound alike, the vocals are disgusting and I can't stand the machine-gun like beating of the drummer.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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FishyMonkey
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 127
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 17:30 |
lucas wrote:
Crushed Aria wrote:
To make a good BM band [...] It takes marriage to the soul of the music. |
Black metal has no soul and it's one of the worst musical genres ever, good only to satisfy teenagers' taste for blood and ultra violence. All black metal bands sound alike, the vocals are disgusting and I can't stand the machine-gun like beating of the drummer. |
ALRIGHT! Some people in here were somewhat reasonable but that just takes the cake for absolute stupidest comment of the month! 
Listen to Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk, then The Sham Mirrors, then At The Heart of Winter, then Death's Design, and YOU tell me if black metal is a worthless genre. If you haven't heard any, which you obviously haven't, don't talk about it.
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:06 |
Death's Design is enough to show someone that it isn't worthless, hell any Diabolical Masquerade is enough.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:06 |
So lately this topic has been posted in only by those with an absurd outsiders view of black metal ("it's all the same and terrible"), those with an absurd insiders view of black metal ("it's the best music ever") and the odd voice of reason from Logos, Manunkind, ulverwithsomenumbersontheend and Mike... apologies to those others in the thread who have freely admitted they know next to nothing about black metal, and as such haven't claimed to judge it on its own terms!
Black metal has more "soul" than prog? Is that soul as played by James Brown? Or is that an entirely useless term meaning "I like it"?
Every prog record more intelligent and complex than every black metal record? Plenty of black metal musicians have had deep and intellectual themes and philosophies behind their albums; plenty of prog groups have had none.
Again, plenty of prog groups have made a career out of rather simple albums (I'd point to a large portion of neo prog here) and plenty of black metal groups have made off the wall records in terms of complexity (I don't claim they're up there with any first tier '70s bands, but at the same time I'm not denying that there might be some. For example, I haven't listened to Diabolical Masquerade's Death's Design album). Again of course, complexity is barely something that can be measured like for like, although if we use an alternate meaning of the word "like" it might fit rather better...
You're all lovely people really  
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 4097
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:10 |
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PS I'd like to point out that, despite having no love for "normal" (and especially "raw") black metal whatsoever, all of FishyMonkey's recommendations that I've listened to really are fantastic albums...
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:25 |
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I used "soul" in the meaning that it takes the dedication of the "heart" of the musicians to make it even worth listening to. Bands like Marduk are sh*tty, because they make simplistic speed based BM and just do their best to abuse the typical BM image. No heart at all.
Bands like Diabolical Masquerade, you can tell put their entire heart into the music to make it as good as possible, and do not bend to the typical ideals of BM.
I do enjoy all kinds of BM, but I guess I am with you on that I prefer the more cleaner production bands who make good use of keyboards.
DM is the perfect band for that.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:29 |
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Dedication though... that's something that can be (should be!) applied to any music that's for listening to. It just becomes harder to see in music one doesn't like.
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:30 |
FishyMonkey wrote:
lucas wrote:
Crushed Aria wrote:
To make a good BM band [...] It takes marriage to the soul of the music. |
Black metal has no soul and it's one of the worst musical genres ever, good only to satisfy teenagers' taste for blood and ultra violence. All black metal bands sound alike, the vocals are disgusting and I can't stand the machine-gun like beating of the drummer.
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ALRIGHT! Some people in here were somewhat reasonable but that just takes the cake for absolute stupidest comment of the month!
Listen to Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk, then The Sham Mirrors, then At The Heart of Winter, then Death's Design, and YOU tell me if black metal is a worthless genre. If you haven't heard any, which you obviously haven't, don't talk about it. |
I know Diabolical Masquerade and what i've heard from them didn't sound like black metal, rather like death metal (their first album...) but no one will make me like black metal. In fact, even when I used to listen to extreme metal, from thrash to death metal, black metal has never been my cup of tea. Maybe there are black metal bands that tend to break the limits of the BM genre (like the last Diabolical masquerade, which I didn't listen to) but my speech was oriented towards stricto sensu BM bands, which really lack originality.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:31 |
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Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I am really open-minded, musically, I will listen to most everything aside from noise music, Hip-pop, and R&B, and it isn't hard to see dedication in the music to me I suppose.
I guess I just expect everyone to have the same "standards" as I do.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:33 |
Ok so... on the topic of black metal bands who went on to do other things, what does anyone think to the last couple of In the Woods... records? 
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:37 |
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In The Woods... Amazing band. Omnio is one of the best albums ever released.
Empyrium, another BM gone non-BM band. They, before splitting, made some of the most amazing acoustic folk.
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:39 |
The only Empyrium album I have is the last one, although I've heard smatterings of the older stuff which I think I prefer. Weiland is good, but it seems a little... unfinished, somehow. I can't put my finger on why, but it certainly doesn't spoil it for me 
edit: listening to "Lover's Grief" now (I wonder how this will help with my analysis of Beethoven's piano music  )
Edited by goose
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Crushed Aria
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Points: 184
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:42 |
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At Night The Wood Grouse Plays, is alot better than Weiland IMO.
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ulver982
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Joined: June 07 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 266
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 19:33 |
In The Woods... I love it all. I agree Omnio is the best.
How about Windir?
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Improvement makes straight roads, but the crooked roads without improvement, are roads of genius.
Silence is the music of the future.
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FishyMonkey
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 127
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Posted: February 02 2006 at 22:20 |
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Windir I've only heard Arntor. Fun stuff, but nothing that stuck with me. Ulver, though, is sweet stuff. I like Bergtatt and whatnot, but their modern stuff is pretty cool too. And Garm's voice never gets old.
Empyrium was a one hit wonder for me. I heard a couple songs off Sogns from Misty Mountains and Fields or whatever the name is (too lazy to look it up), and I thought it was really beautiful. Then...I never listened to it again! Strange, I agree.
lucas, if you were speaking of traditional raw and 1st wave black metal...Darkthrone and whatnot, I'd tend to agree with some of your post that I bashed. I won't say it has no merits, because obviously people htink it does, but it's not my cup of tea. Raw and minimal beauty my ass. One riff for five minutes is not a good song. I'm not overly experienced in Burzum ad Darkthrone and the like, but from what I've heard, I don't want to become experienced.
I've never heard any In The Woods...what do they sound like?
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Lindsay Lohan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 03 2006 at 03:23 |
Black metal can NEVER be more complex than prog because PROG mixes alot of different genres like Jazz,Classical,Metal,Folk,Soul,Funk and so on and Black Metal is just narrowed down to being black metal as soon as you start to include other genres than black metal into the music it is not longer black metal.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 03 2006 at 06:27 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
Black metal can NEVER be more complex than prog because PROG mixes alot of different genres like Jazz,Classical,Metal,Folk,Soul,Funk and so on and Black Metal is just narrowed down to being black metal as soon as you start to include other genres than black metal into the music it is not longer black metal. |
I guess Emperor and Taake aren't black metal because they have symphonic (and I think the odd bit of death metal from time to time) influences then? Satyricon, early Ulver and Bethzaida because of folk roots? ...And Oceans because of electro and industrial sections? Peccatum because of influences from noise?
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Lindsay Lohan
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Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
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Posted: February 03 2006 at 06:40 |
Well certainly Crushed Aria does not think that forexample Satyricon is black metal since he is seems to be very strick about what is black metal and what is not.
Besides not any black metal band can be purely black metal and draw inspirations from a variaty of genres. You can only have straight black metal bands that sometimes go in a different direction.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: February 03 2006 at 08:05 |
Lindsay Lohan wrote:
Well certainly Crushed Aria does not think that forexample Satyricon is black metal |
sure?
Crushed Aria wrote:
Satyricon,Darkthrone, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, Carpathian Forest, Mayhem,
Dark Funeral, Dødheimsgaard. Yes, all of those bands have been, or were at one point in time [black metal].
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Lindsay Lohan wrote:
Besides not any black metal band can be purely black metal and draw inspirations from a variaty of genres. You can only have straight black metal bands that sometimes go in a different direction.
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And that means that any band that isn't pure black metal isn't black metal at all, does it? One might as well say that prog isn't rock music, because it has other elements in it.
As prog (and not exclusively prog, of course) rock bands utilise other styles, so too is there a proportion of black metal groups who do. The only difference is that so far as I know there's no distinct name for them.
Edited by goose
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: February 03 2006 at 09:08 |
A dialogue between two users of a black metal forum:
User 1: Dude, you gotta check out Gheeririsapjsvnoqu218otth, talk about grim, evil, tr00 black metal!
User 2: No way, they suck, man, they're a bunch of Christians, and Horton the Elephant are infinitely more grim, evil and tr00 anyway.
User 1: Horton the Elephant blow, they use, like, keyboards n' stuff, they're ubergay.
User 2: You're ubergay!
User 1: And you suck!
User 2: Horton the Elephant > your mother!!!!
User 1: Gheeririsapjsvnoqu218otth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Horton the Elephant!!!
User 2: Noisn't! Noisn't!
User 1: It is too!
User 2: Christian!
User 1: Poser!
...
A dialogue between two users of a prog forum:
User 1: Dude, you gotta check out Damnable Dwarf, they were the first to merge rock with wet towels, they're sooooo prog!
User 2: No way, they suck, man, they're not prog at all, Horton the Elephant merged rock with wet towels already back in the 70s, and they did that a zillion times better, Damnable Dwarf stole this idea from them!
User 1: What are you talking about man, Horton the Elephant are prog related, proto prog at best, they didn't merge rock with wet towels organically like, it's either rock or wet towels with them!
User 2: You're talking out of your ass, dude, show me at least one spot on any of their albums where you can tell rock from wet towels, it's impossible I tell you!
User 1: You don't know prog!
User 2: I do too!
User 1: You don't!
User 2: I do!
User 1: Idiot!
User 2: Moron!
...
The blade of satire spares the innocent, of course.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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