Black Metal
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Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18307
Printed Date: March 02 2025 at 09:13
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Topic: Black Metal
Posted By: Equimanthorn
Subject: Black Metal
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 03:37
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I make black metal, and i would like to hear what people think about this
subject. What countries do you think best produced this music. France, Norway, Sweden,Germany, Poland, U.S, Ect... Different styles you particularly like... Best bands..... Proggers, Compare Robert Wyatts Rock Rottom and other obscure european prog to modern day American Black Metal such as Xathstur or Leviathian and you may be suprised at the length of these guys influences. I find a lot more in Death and Black metal that tickles the same funny bone from all this 70's prog, but still cant stand the DT or any other "prog Metal". |
Replies:
Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 05:30
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Good for you.
------------- My solo music: http://www.myspace.com/anthropiate - ANTHROPIATE |
Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 05:57
| I listened a bit to black metal when I was younger, but to be brutally honest, I find it incredibly pathetic in every way these days. I consider it music for immature people really, no matter how snobby that sounds. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 06:10
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Exactly the same for me. When I was in my teens I listened to a bit of Venom, but even then it was only really for comedy value. I dont really understand what grown men get out of playing/listening to that music. It's just plain silly. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
erlenst wrote:Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 06:37
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I used to be heavily into BM of all shapes and sizes, from Darkthrone to Cradle Of Filth, but I hardly listen to it anymore, I guess I just got tired of its atmosphere. I sometimes come back to Satyricon's "Rebel Extravaganza", Mayhem's "A Grand Declaration of War" and Immortal's "At the Heart of Winter", but I don't really know whether they can still be classified as black metal. I'm vaguely aware there's a black metal reneissance going on nowadays, and the USA is a part of it, but it's on the periphery of my interests. I heard the names Xathstur and Leviathan but haven't heard their music. The only newer bands I've checked out lately were Krieg and Averse Sefira, but I liked neither. I do mean to give Primordial and Negura Bunget (spelling?) a try, however. As for the prog influences... well, I guess there must be some in ABSU, but I haven't really heard their music, I only know Proscriptor is a big 70s' prog fan. Hell, maybe I do need to listen to some ABSU, then. Also maybe it's just me, but there is or was a 70s hard-rock vibe to Gorgoroth. I generally like death metal much more and I'm really getting into doom metal, especially of the ultra slow and grinding variety (like Burning Witch, for example). I also love prog metal, DT and the whole cheesy, feelgood lot included Anyway, don't let the 'slow' (being VERY diplomatic here) start to your thread bring you down, there's some black metal fans here, like Logos, for example, you'll just have to wait for them to show up. ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
. Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 06:46
I like to listen to it once in a while ... but I have no real connection to this style. I DO like the more experimental forms of Black Metal - like Ulver, Unexpect, Vintersorg. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 06:51
Completely forgot about those - haven't heard Ulver yet, but Arcturus' "La Masquerade Infernale" is very, very cool, and that seems to be just the tip of the iceberg. ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 07:32
I third the emotion! ------------- 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 08:27
^ Yeah, I dont think I meant that to sound quite so condescending..  ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 09:08
I prefer men doing that than our officers playing war games (I know them from my 3 year military service and 10 years of reserve service) and our heads of governments playing "rational and serious" diplomats and leaders. Anyway amogst all the music I hear and love (and there is much I listen to), there is also black metal. I don't give a f**k about their pose and clothes, but I love the sound of this music and the vocals too. I love harsh growls and shrieks and also tender soft voices much like my music. Not my prefered style of music, definitely, but one that I love listening to. That been said, what is this thread about anyway? ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 10:13
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I'm not that big a fan of Dark/Black/Death metal, its all just a bit too extreem for me. BTW avestin, where is the Nrutral Zone ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 10:25
Where I wish I would be right now...So far away, but still very vivid in my mind... ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: ulver982
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 10:57
You should really give Negura Bunget (sp?) Yeah, I forgot how to spell it. Anywho..I've got one of their albums, and it's actually really good stuff. I consider it fairly complex compared to a lot of bm bands out there..and long songs too..9+ minutes. I pretty much like black metal from Europe...the very few US black metal bands I've heard sucked. For instance, Night Conquers Day ------------- Improvement makes straight roads, but the crooked roads without improvement, are roads of genius. Silence is the music of the future. |
It's kind of funny how they praise Opeth in their booklet, but when you listen to the music......heh. I still listen to black metal on occasion. I'm sometimes up for some Abigor or Burzum. I'll always have a love for black metal..for me, it paved the way to prog.Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:16
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Easily the best genre of music for me. I love music to have atmosphere and the like, and well the atmosphere alot of Prog. bands create sound fake, forced, or just don't do anything for me. Thinking that black metal is for immature people is one of the stupidest things I have heard. Some Black metal musicians can play and write better music than alot of Prog. Musicians, and I can tell you this, if you have not followed Ihsahn's career outside of Emperor, you will never believe me. You have to listen to bands like Sigh, Diabolical Masquerade, Solefald, Transcending Bizarre, Ulver, etc. before you can judge black metal, as "silly and immature." In regards to there being no good USBM, there is a hell of alot of it. Xasthur, Leviathan, Judas Iscariot, and Grand Belial's Key for example, are amazing bands. I think that black metal takes alot more skill and talent to make the music sound good, and I don't mean Darkthrone good I mean Ulver, early Arcturus, In The Woods..., Empyrium, Dies Irae, etc, than it does for any other style of music. I do not mean this in terms of general instrumental skill, because alot of the bands are really simple, but I mean in the actual composing and writing of the music. You can easily get some guy who can play pretty well on the guitar, some half-bit keyboardist and a bland drummer, and then you can write music with time signature changes and hah. You have a Prog. band. To make a good BM band it takes alot more. It takes marriage to the soul of the music. ------------- 
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Posted By: gimsom
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:24
Same here thou I never listened it. Few times when I was forced. Agreed totally. |
Posted By: gimsom
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:26
... And I think youre nuts or joking (don't reply I'am not going to even look at this thread anymore, it doesn't deserve it. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:40
Well, good. You noob with a God-complex. You have obviously not listened to any Black metal. -------------
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Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:52
yep ------------- |
Posted By: zaxx
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 16:57
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I sometimes listen to black metal too - usual stuff like Cradle Of Filth, Dimmu Borgir and such. The only problem I find with usual black metal bands is the poor quality of the vocals. That's why my favorite black metal band will always remain King Diamond. ------------- Destiny... Infinity... Eternity... |
Posted By: Pseud0
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:04
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ulver and arcturus just arn't black metal, sorry bands like dummy burger make horrible music emperor, bathory, immortal, darkthrone, and burzum have made some excellent music however also, early enslaved (who are now an absolutely fantastic genesis influenced experimental band) ------------- 
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:20
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You have obviously never heard Ulver's early material, nor Arcturus's. They were black metal. Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth are not black metal, and nor are King Diamond. DB, well they used to be anyways, but are now Gothic metal. Cradle of Filth are Gothic metal, always have been, always will be. King Diamond is Traditional Metal (aka Heavy metal) All good bands you mentioned. -------------
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Posted By: Pseud0
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:28
lol of course ive heard ulver's early material their only real black metal album is nattens madrigal in my opinion. they did have some black metal influences on the first two albums (bergtatt especially), but they were generally their own thing the whole time. arcturus arn't black metal, not even on Aspera hiems symphonia its not important anyway... good music is good bad music isn't  -------------
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Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:38
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Black metal is just an excuse to deferinciate themselves from other
genres of metal, theres no significant change between deathmetal or
dark/black/hairy metal. I used to listen to 'melodic' deathmetal such
as inflames and children of bodem when i was younger but atleast they
had some uplifting riff work. Ive heard afew leviathian songs, they can
get pretty techinal but its so bloody depressing. This pointless explosion of genres make me nauseated. |
Posted By: nowax
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:39
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I have unfortunetly listened to this music. I have stopped for "psychological" reasons, because I became crazy. (wake up on the groud a night in my bedroom, screaming like in a horror film, because I thought a corpse, lenghtended by my side, was taking one of my arms).  Imagine a world, where every one is listening to BM style : not happy thing ! So I do not listen anymore to this type of music, because it is a choice of life : no hate.  |
Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:43
Agreed! - its all hate hate hate. |
Posted By: Pseud0
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:43
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^ are you dumb
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:51
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Aspera hiems symphonia is actually Melodic Black metal, keyboards don't make the album non-Black metal =) Ulver's Bergtatt and nattens madrigal are the only black metal albums (mind you they have folk influences), their second, album is pure folk. Anyways, as for those two morons, it wasn't Black metal that f**ked you up, it was your dumbass. Black metal is easily differentiated from Death metal, and while I would like to provide examples, you wouldn't listen to them Also, not all BM is hate based, and even if it is, you have to be a f**king pussy to be affected by it. ANyways, to prove my point here are some lyrics from the band: Solefald.
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Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:55
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Your right I wouldnt listen to it, I've heard enough of it to state my
opinion, and yeah im a pussy because i don't like it - maybey BM made
you this irrational. :) |
Posted By: erlenst
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 17:58
Well, tell me what bands are black metal then... Is (early) Satyricon, Darkthrone, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, Carpathian Forest, Mayhem, Dark Funeral, Dødheimsgaard, etc etc... not black metal ? OF COURSE they are, and those bands are some of the most pathetic I can imagine. For God's sake, look at them. I don't care how talented musicians they might be. On some level, they are extremely immature. http://ruthlessreviews.com/top10/10blackmetal2.html (Mature, intellectual musicians for sure!) Ulver isn't black metal at all. However, they were on their first albums, and those were ridiculous. |
Posted By: nowax
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:04
Same thing for me. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:10
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Satyricon,
Darkthrone, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, Carpathian Forest, Mayhem,
Dark Funeral, Dødheimsgaard Yes, all of those bands have been, or were at one point in time. The fact that they have different ideals from you does not make them mature, they stand up for what they believe in and do it wether or not it gives them sh*t from people who don't like their way of thinking. Their strong and firm convictions to their unpopular beliefs makes them indeed very mature. I also, do not really see what is so "immature" about Emperor. You obviously have never divuleged into the BM underground, where you have many bands, like the ones I mentioned that write very philosophical lyrics and the like. It isn't all "gay for Satan" stuff. I was not calling anyone a pussy for not liking metal, I said that you have to be a pussy, to be AFFECTED by the music, that or a f**king overly obcessed Christian. Their first and third albums were black metal, and how they are "rediculous" is beyond me. They are two of the most atmospheric and beautiful albums you will ever hear. -------------
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Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:18
So now your stereotyping christians? ANYONE can listen to any type of music. When you said i'd have to be a pussy to be affected by this type of music you are basically calling me a pussy for not liking it - because thats all i mentioned in my post. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:20
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I wasn't even refering to you man. I was refering to nowax. I was not stereotyping Christians, I said the overly obcessed ones. Anyways, I am free to stereotype all I please. -------------
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Posted By: Prog_Bassist
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:20
hahaha. I have to agree with you. I like some types of metal with screaming and such, i don't listen to it much though... Meshuggah and Opeth are good examples of Progressive Death Metal. However, I don't think it defines whether someone is a female genetalia because they don't like "Black Metal" or any of these similar genres. I have to say I think people that think other people are "pussies" because they don't listen to a certain type of music are just plain stupid. I'd rather be called a pussy then to pretend I liked somethign that I didn't. ------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhuxaD8NzaY |
Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:26
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So you don't care if you look like a jackass lol? |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:30
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Isn't it ironic that this thread is more psychadelic than any early Pink Floyd or Hawkwind thread? ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:36
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I had not called him a pussy because he didn't like the music, I fully respect peoples right to dislike the music. I was calling nowax that because he said the music did all that kind of sh*t to him. "Meshuggah and Opeth are good examples of Progressive Death Metal" No they are not. Opeth are Prog. metal with Harsh vocals. The harsh vocals do not make the band death metal. They lack the genre-defining riffs. Meshuggah, on the other hand, are not DM either, and are rather hard to describe, but they lack the genre-definding riffs, and can I guess be called "post-thrash." -------------
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Posted By: Construkction
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:51
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Meshuggah are easy to describe, they are progressive metal with "harsh" vocals as you put it. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:55
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I guess so, in a sense. Though, they differ alot from most Prog. Metal bands. It is really the only way to classify them under a real genre.
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 18:58
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 19:12
Yes? I judge people, alot. So what is it to you? -------------
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Posted By: FishyMonkey
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 19:25
Ok, I'll agree with you on your black metal case, which I'll go into later. But Opeth is most definitely progressive DEATH metal. I'd believe you if you said CoB are power metal with harsh black-ish vocals, cause their music has nothing in common with black metal and everything with power metal. But Opeth...they may not have have the crushingly fast riffs of Nile, or the brutal well-formed riffs of Behemoth, or the Stockholm-style Bloodbath riffs, but their riffs are heavy. You'd be joking yourself to call the Master's Apprentice riff not death metal, and there are others that are just as heavy. I don't know where you cross the line at death metal -- I'm pretty strict myself, I don't think Arsis is death metal. But to say the heavy parts of Opeth's music isn't death metal seems off. So some more explanation there would appreciated. Anyway, some of you need to get off your ****ing high horse and stop being so pretentious about other genres of music you've never listened to. Or maybe you've heard them a couple times, but never really invested any time in trying to understand the music. I for one don't like most early 1st wave black metal, but the third wave and some 2nd wave stuff is excellent and most of it is quite progressive. There's a reason prog fans are thought of as pretentious, and it's opinions like the ones I've seen in this thread that are the reason. It seems like most of you are openminded enough to accept 70s prog rock, and then anything past that sucks becuase you, the wonderful music lover, have found the pinnacle of music. Open your eyes a bit, and you'd find there's a lot to be liked about albums like Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk, or At The Heart of Winter. Sure, 30 year old men getting on stage corpsepainted up and screeching their balls off may be stupid upon viewing it, but they are artists nonetheless and take their music seriously. So please, calling black metal immature is pretty immature in and of itself, as well as closeminded. By the way:
Yes...there is a significant difference, and if you can't see the difference it's your own damn fault. Millions of metal fans see the clear difference and you not seeing it is only further proof you haven't listened to much of it. And Children of Bodom != melodeath. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/FishyMonkey/?chartstyle=artists"> 
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Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 19:34
its nothing to me.. it just tell something about your personality... really its nothing to me... -------------
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 19:53
Well, please good sir. What does it tell you about my personality? That I am a prejudiced asshole? Yeah, you don't need to tell me that. -------------
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Posted By: Pseud0
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 21:44
thanks for the much needed lesson   -------------
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 21:54
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This is what I think when I hear the term "black metal".
Or Just really bad, sh*tty music with even worse image. |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 21:59
nicely put King ------------- |
Posted By: Pseud0
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 22:02
you like dream theater, ice age, pain of salvation, the flower kings... 'nuff said -------------
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Posted By: ulver982
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 22:13
 Crushed Aria...I agree with you totally!! ------------- Improvement makes straight roads, but the crooked roads without improvement, are roads of genius. Silence is the music of the future. |
Posted By: Toob-Wurm
Date Posted: February 01 2006 at 23:18
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Hey, Pain Of Salvation isn't bad... Dream Theater on the other hand... ----------------------------------------------------------- If any of you had the slightest bit of maturity, you wouldn't be arguing like baby siblings. To say that Black Metal is immature, and then get in a pissy argument about it is pure hypocrisy. When the people who like Black Metal respond to the people that say it's immature, is also immature. Conclusion: You're all a bunch of whiners - Get over it! Some of you like Black Metal, some of you dont! End of discussion. ------------- 
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 06:45
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Black Metal along with grindcore is the worst kind of music ever created id take britney spears anyday! And certainly any good prog band will ALWAYS be more complex and intelligent than any Black metal band. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: JayDee
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 08:20
And youre proud to be like that??? Thats... oh never mind... I may have judged other people unjustly..im not all good.. but to be proud of the wrong things ive done...???? oh no... thats plain hardheadedness... very immature... thats what im thinking... thats what youre posts are telling me... -------------
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 10:08
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This thread is just f**king stupid. Grow up.
Someone mentioned Grand Belial's Key tho. What a brilliant band.
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 10:51
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It's hard to top black metal outfits, but Gentle Giant did not do a bad job trying: http://images.google.pl/images?hl=pl&lr=&q=+site:homepages.ihug.co.nz+Gentle+Giant - http://images.google.pl/images?hl=pl&lr=&q=+site:hom epages.ihug.co.nz+Gentle+Giant
------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 11:06
Certainly the outfits of many bands in the 70's and 80's aint exactly...umm...what you would like to wear in the streets but in addition to looking silly the black metalers that really belivie in satan and stuff and claims to be devil worshippers and stuff is just a bit childish in my opinion  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 11:20
Are you trying to be funny, provocative or are you just plain stupid? |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 11:25
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Oh please i am norwegian and i have seen tons of interviews with those norwegian black metal bands....great interview with that vocalist in Venom... Interviewer:"What inspires you to make music?" he sits silent for a while and then replies with a dark voice: SATAN!!! and thats pretty much how he replied to every question asked ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 11:39
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Those who do sure are childish. Don't listen to their music, then. And don't listen to Charlie Parker, Syd Barrett and Led Zep, either. ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 11:49
I wont ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 15:45
You realize that Venom, are not even Black metal, and that they do everything as a joke? Plenty of the BM bands do believe in Satan, and as to how that is childish, I will never know. I can say the same about Christians. Believing in a God that is a pure contradiction of itself, is quite childish and ignorant. Why is beliving in Satan so childish? It boggles the mind. And just so you don't question me on this, no, I do not believe in Satan. I also do not belive in the Christian god. As far as religion is concerned I have not found my "spiritual" home per say. Anyways, I am not really surprised about the dislike for BM here, this is Prog. community, and in all reality the only reason I am here is because I like The Flower Kings and Pain of Salvation. About the comment about Prog. Bands ALWAYS being more complex than BM bands, hah. Idiotic thought that is. If you were to listen to Diabolical Masquerade - Death's Design, you would realize that it is one of the most complex albums ever. BUt anyways, people here have their biased opinions, so I guess it won't help to try and teach you. -------------
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 17:15
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Black metal has no soul and it's one of the worst musical genres ever, good only to satisfy teenagers' taste for blood and ultra violence. All black metal bands sound alike, the vocals are disgusting and I can't stand the machine-gun like beating of the drummer. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: FishyMonkey
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 17:30
ALRIGHT! Some people in here were somewhat reasonable but that just takes the cake for absolute stupidest comment of the month!
Listen to Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk, then The Sham Mirrors, then At The Heart of Winter, then Death's Design, and YOU tell me if black metal is a worthless genre. If you haven't heard any, which you obviously haven't, don't talk about it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/FishyMonkey/?chartstyle=artists">
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:06
Death's Design is enough to show someone that it isn't worthless, hell any Diabolical Masquerade is enough. -------------
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:06
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So lately this topic has been posted in only by those with an absurd outsiders view of black metal ("it's all the same and terrible"), those with an absurd insiders view of black metal ("it's the best music ever") and the odd voice of reason from Logos, Manunkind, ulverwithsomenumbersontheend and Mike... apologies to those others in the thread who have freely admitted they know next to nothing about black metal, and as such haven't claimed to judge it on its own terms!
Black metal has more "soul" than prog? Is that soul as played by James Brown? Or is that an entirely useless term meaning "I like it"? Every prog record more intelligent and complex than every black metal record? Plenty of black metal musicians have had deep and intellectual themes and philosophies behind their albums; plenty of prog groups have had none. Again, plenty of prog groups have made a career out of rather simple albums (I'd point to a large portion of neo prog here) and plenty of black metal groups have made off the wall records in terms of complexity (I don't claim they're up there with any first tier '70s bands, but at the same time I'm not denying that there might be some. For example, I haven't listened to Diabolical Masquerade's Death's Design album). Again of course, complexity is barely something that can be measured like for like, although if we use an alternate meaning of the word "like" it might fit rather better... You're all lovely people really 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:10
| PS I'd like to point out that, despite having no love for "normal" (and especially "raw") black metal whatsoever, all of FishyMonkey's recommendations that I've listened to really are fantastic albums... |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:25
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I used "soul" in the meaning that it takes the dedication of the "heart" of the musicians to make it even worth listening to. Bands like Marduk are sh*tty, because they make simplistic speed based BM and just do their best to abuse the typical BM image. No heart at all. Bands like Diabolical Masquerade, you can tell put their entire heart into the music to make it as good as possible, and do not bend to the typical ideals of BM. I do enjoy all kinds of BM, but I guess I am with you on that I prefer the more cleaner production bands who make good use of keyboards. DM is the perfect band for that. -------------
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:29
| Dedication though... that's something that can be (should be!) applied to any music that's for listening to. It just becomes harder to see in music one doesn't like. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:30
I know Diabolical Masquerade and what i've heard from them didn't sound like black metal, rather like death metal (their first album...) but no one will make me like black metal. In fact, even when I used to listen to extreme metal, from thrash to death metal, black metal has never been my cup of tea. Maybe there are black metal bands that tend to break the limits of the BM genre (like the last Diabolical masquerade, which I didn't listen to) but my speech was oriented towards stricto sensu BM bands, which really lack originality. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:31
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Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I am really open-minded, musically, I will listen to most everything aside from noise music, Hip-pop, and R&B, and it isn't hard to see dedication in the music to me I suppose. I guess I just expect everyone to have the same "standards" as I do. -------------
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:33
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Ok so... on the topic of black metal bands who went on to do other things, what does anyone think to the last couple of In the Woods... records?
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:37
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In The Woods... Amazing band. Omnio is one of the best albums ever released. Empyrium, another BM gone non-BM band. They, before splitting, made some of the most amazing acoustic folk. -------------
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:39
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The only Empyrium album I have is the last one, although I've heard smatterings of the older stuff which I think I prefer. Weiland is good, but it seems a little... unfinished, somehow. I can't put my finger on why, but it certainly doesn't spoil it for me
edit: listening to "Lover's Grief" now (I wonder how this will help with my analysis of Beethoven's piano music )
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Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 18:42
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At Night The Wood Grouse Plays, is alot better than Weiland IMO.
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Posted By: ulver982
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 19:33
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In The Woods... I love it all. I agree Omnio is the best. How about Windir? ------------- Improvement makes straight roads, but the crooked roads without improvement, are roads of genius. Silence is the music of the future. |
Posted By: FishyMonkey
Date Posted: February 02 2006 at 22:20
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Windir I've only heard Arntor. Fun stuff, but nothing that stuck with me. Ulver, though, is sweet stuff. I like Bergtatt and whatnot, but their modern stuff is pretty cool too. And Garm's voice never gets old.
Empyrium was a one hit wonder for me. I heard a couple songs off Sogns from Misty Mountains and Fields or whatever the name is (too lazy to look it up), and I thought it was really beautiful. Then...I never listened to it again! Strange, I agree. lucas, if you were speaking of traditional raw and 1st wave black metal...Darkthrone and whatnot, I'd tend to agree with some of your post that I bashed. I won't say it has no merits, because obviously people htink it does, but it's not my cup of tea. Raw and minimal beauty my ass. One riff for five minutes is not a good song. I'm not overly experienced in Burzum ad Darkthrone and the like, but from what I've heard, I don't want to become experienced. I've never heard any In The Woods...what do they sound like? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/FishyMonkey/?chartstyle=artists">
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Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 03:23
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Black metal can NEVER be more complex than prog because PROG mixes alot of different genres like Jazz,Classical,Metal,Folk,Soul,Funk and so on and Black Metal is just narrowed down to being black metal as soon as you start to include other genres than black metal into the music it is not longer black metal. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 06:27
I guess Emperor and Taake aren't black metal because they have symphonic (and I think the odd bit of death metal from time to time) influences then? Satyricon, early Ulver and Bethzaida because of folk roots? ...And Oceans because of electro and industrial sections? Peccatum because of influences from noise? |
Posted By: Lindsay Lohan
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 06:40
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Well certainly Crushed Aria does not think that forexample Satyricon is black metal since he is seems to be very strick about what is black metal and what is not. Besides not any black metal band can be purely black metal and draw inspirations from a variaty of genres. You can only have straight black metal bands that sometimes go in a different direction. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Fjuffe/?chartstyle=sideRed - [IMG - http://imagegen.last.fm/sideRed/recenttracks/Fjuffe.gif - |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 08:05
sure?
And that means that any band that isn't pure black metal isn't black metal at all, does it? One might as well say that prog isn't rock music, because it has other elements in it. As prog (and not exclusively prog, of course) rock bands utilise other styles, so too is there a proportion of black metal groups who do. The only difference is that so far as I know there's no distinct name for them. |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 09:08
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A dialogue between two users of a black metal forum: User 1: Dude, you gotta check out Gheeririsapjsvnoqu218otth, talk about grim, evil, tr00 black metal! User 2: No way, they suck, man, they're a bunch of Christians, and Horton the Elephant are infinitely more grim, evil and tr00 anyway. User 1: Horton the Elephant blow, they use, like, keyboards n' stuff, they're ubergay. User 2: You're ubergay! User 1: And you suck! User 2: Horton the Elephant > your mother!!!! User 1: Gheeririsapjsvnoqu218otth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Horton the Elephant!!! User 2: Noisn't! Noisn't! User 1: It is too! User 2: Christian! User 1: Poser! ...
A dialogue between two users of a prog forum: User 1: Dude, you gotta check out Damnable Dwarf, they were the first to merge rock with wet towels, they're sooooo prog! User 2: No way, they suck, man, they're not prog at all, Horton the Elephant merged rock with wet towels already back in the 70s, and they did that a zillion times better, Damnable Dwarf stole this idea from them! User 1: What are you talking about man, Horton the Elephant are prog related, proto prog at best, they didn't merge rock with wet towels organically like, it's either rock or wet towels with them! User 2: You're talking out of your ass, dude, show me at least one spot on any of their albums where you can tell rock from wet towels, it's impossible I tell you! User 1: You don't know prog! User 2: I do too! User 1: You don't! User 2: I do! User 1: Idiot! User 2: Moron! ...
The blade of satire spares the innocent, of course ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: Shark Sandwich
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 09:46
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@ Manunkind
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 09:55
Wtf? Venom invented the musical style known as Black Metal. If modern BM is different, that doesn't make Venom any less Black Metal. There are different "waves" in Black metal, Venom belongs to the 1st wave, the Norwegian early-to-mid-90's scene is second wave and Bm today is third wave. Musically all these 'waves' have huge differences. |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 10:07
About the Satan thing... Most black metal bands have strong ideological principles, usually based on anti-christianity and quite often satanism. Lindsay, do you know what satanism is? I hope you realize that most people in the black metal scene know that Satan doesn't exist. That's just religious nonsense, as people have to find someone to blame for their own mistakes, too afraid to take responsibility. Yes, the clothing is often ridiculous, as well as the facepainting. However, many bands have very intelligent and thought-provoking lyrics. Some don't. It's the same as in any type of music, also prog music. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 14:57
They coined the term "black metal" but were never black metal themselves. The thing is, their music was undeniably thrash metal. They were called black metal because of their lyrics, and a genre based on lyrics isn't a genre at all. Typically, there has to be a general sound for bands to be part of the same genre, and how the hell Venom can be called BM while Mercyful Fate can as well, just boggles the mind. The true inventor of Black metal, is Bathory. I do understand, and acknowledge Venom as being VERY influential to BM, but I just can't consider them BM, as they were considered that from a lyrical basis, as were MF and a few other bands of the era, like Sodom. -------------
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Posted By: sbrushfan
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 15:32
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I was waiting for the Bathory reference. I think they were the true innovators of black metal. Venom, to me, was thrash, and Mercyful Fate (with Sherman and Denner) were power metal to me, much in the line of Iron Maiden (though MANY steps heavier). You had it all with Bathory: The satanic influences, the necro production values, etc. Even now, many death metal bands still point to Quorthon as a huge influence. The lyrical matter in black and death metal is, IMO, about freethinking. Even at its' most pointed, Glen Benton's (Deicide) lyrics talk about freewill...you have the choice to think for yourself. BTW... ------------- Some world views are spacious, and some are merely spaced... |
Posted By: SetAbominae
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 16:22
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Bathory started out as black metal but were definitely viking metal by the time Blood Fire Death came out. Iron Maiden is considered NWOBHM. As far as black metal goes... I like the post-black movement a lot more - especially Borknagar. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 03 2006 at 17:07
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Bathory was definatly not Viking Metal until Hammerheart. Viking metal is a music style, not a lyrical one.
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Posted By: spo1977
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 16:53
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Black Metal started out as being more based on subject matter than a musical style. Venom and Mercyful Fate were kicking around at the same time. Mercyful Fate would no longer be associated with Black Metal today, even though.... Todays Black Metal seems based on Bathory and since then has evolved. I consider the term Black Metal to apply to anti-Christian bands and yet many Black Metal bands do not seem anti-Christian to me. Is In the Woods really Black Metal or anti-Christian? Currently I think the term Black Metal applies more to a style but before it was more about lyrical content. |
Posted By: spo1977
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 16:55
So is Viking Metal stuff that sounds like Manowar or stuff that sounds like Enslaved or is it subject matter? |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 17:02
This is extremely funny; if any atmosphere sounds fake and forced, it is definitely the atmosphere of black metal. Nothing sounds more put-on than this "look what heavy and bad guys we are" attitude in that kind of music. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 18:22
Viking metal is based around the sound of bands like Einherjer, Hammerheart-Era Bathory, Ensiferum, and the like. It is not lyrically based, and is very much so based around the sound.
... you obviously have never listened to much real black metal.
Black metal is sound based, not lyric based. In The Woods...'s first album was BM but after that not really. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 18:26
You are wrong there, I have, and I had precisely these feelings. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 18:32
Ahh, well please, do tell me which bands you have heard? Seeing as black metal is hardly heavy. -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: February 04 2006 at 18:36
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I don't remember which artists I listened to; I disliked the whole genré. It doesn't give me anything. Just not my kind of music.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: spo1977
Date Posted: February 05 2006 at 21:36
| Did In the Woods use black metal style vocals on Omnio or Heart of Ages. I just heard the live version of the song Heart of ages and the vocals are all normal? |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: February 05 2006 at 21:58
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It definitely isn't heavy, but its far more "unlistenable" for people like me that wish to hear some "melody". |
Posted By: Crushed Aria
Date Posted: February 06 2006 at 15:57
There is melody in all music. Though, I feel you would enjoy the band, Diabolical Masquerade. -------------
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Posted By: IcedSabbath
Date Posted: February 06 2006 at 20:01
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A couple of comments after reading through this thread... Concerning good/bad BM: Conerning the origins of BM: Concerning USBM: |
Posted By: Zarquino
Date Posted: February 07 2006 at 10:50
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Well, I got sick reading this, too sick. If you don't like black metal let's not talk about it, end of discussion. Don't say it's the worst or is the best, it is stupid. Any genre can be the best for anyone. I don't really know what to say... I like black metal. Varg Vikernes screams for me in 'Lost Wisdom' of Burzum, the 'Mother North' riff from the Satyricon band, makes me some emotion that no much more music made me. And if you can't understand just leave it. I don't find immature to try to show the ignorance and the hate. I don't like the satanism, nor the christianity, I hate any religion. I listen to metal and don't believe in any pagan god or satan or anything. Black metal has that atmosphere. When you hear 'black metal' you think in a man with corpse paint across a wood with an ax in a hand and a fire in the other. You think about a irrational man that hates mankind. Many black metal musicians are just sick, but they make great music. I just don't understand some things you say. If you can't undertand don't talk. I think progressive rock is GREAT, I like a lot when the instrments seem to get irrational and start to throw away notes, I love it. And I love it when it makes me FEEL. The most important in music are FEELINGS, and if you dont feel leave... It doesnt matter if is rush, yes, behemoth, dream theater, iron maiden, arcturus, mayhem, coldplay, keane, king crimson or genesis. The most important is to feel. Bye Guys ------------- There's nothing left to loose |
Posted By: Zarquino
Date Posted: February 07 2006 at 10:52
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Ahm, now that I remember. SOme forms of sathanism are nearly 'carpe
diem'. To believe in oneself and live your live. Not all satanics think
bad and believe in thathorny man... ------------- There's nothing left to loose |