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Dick Heath 
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12813
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 Posted: December 07 2005 at 07:28 |
 con safo wrote:
WHY.............WWWWHYYYYYY
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Is this spot the song competition? Then I would say Tom Jones' Delilah!
To answer the question: because it is F***ing progressive music, and music that doesn't progress, e.g. by avoiding change and not hybriding with ANY other form music, is RETRO, and I don't want to spend all my music listening time living the past, I'm greedy for the next great innovation and tired of regurgitations/increasingly poor imitations of the old.
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WhiskeyVegeance
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 06 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 16
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Posted: December 06 2005 at 23:40 |
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I can't believe that nobody's mentioned Anticon in any of these 11 pages... It's a hip hop crew known for rapping in uneven meter and artistic lyrics. Buck 65, one of the dudes from Anticon, came out with an album called "Square" in '03 that consisted of four 14 minute plus songs. He even samples Atomic Rooster on "Square One"!
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Gaspy Conana
Forum Newbie
Joined: October 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 35
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Posted: December 06 2005 at 00:42 |
con safo wrote:
WHY.............WWWWHYYYYYY
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...can we never be sure till we die?
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i no wuts proggeir and u dont so their
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pols
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: December 06 2005 at 00:23 |
con safo wrote:
did you not read the first 10 pages of this....
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heh sorry, i read it for a bit before getting annoyed by the mixture of
ignorance, closed-mindedness and occasional racist remark...
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Olympus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 545
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Posted: December 06 2005 at 00:11 |
Progressive rap, hmm its a bit strange and I don't see how it could work without incorporating bad, bad work which don't belong in the prog world. 
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"Let's get the hell away from this Eerie-ass piece of work so we can get on with the rest of our eerie-ass day"
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con safo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1230
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 23:40 |
pols wrote:
speaking of which, why? is also great progressive hip-hop
bottom line, if you believe that hip-hop is never going to progress
past its current incarnation, then you have a seriously limited
conception of what the future holds. and by the future, i'm thinking
even five, ten years from now. hip-hop is a baby, musically speaking,
compared to rock, which has been cultivated and evolving for many
decades. and the floodgates are starting to crack open for true
innovation, mark my words. for yet more examples, look to the "grime"
scene in the UK for some really forward-looking rap.
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did you not read the first 10 pages of this....
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pols
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 23:36 |
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speaking of which, why? is also great progressive hip-hop
bottom line, if you believe that hip-hop is never going to progress
past its current incarnation, then you have a seriously limited
conception of what the future holds. and by the future, i'm thinking
even five, ten years from now. hip-hop is a baby, musically speaking,
compared to rock, which has been cultivated and evolving for many
decades. and the floodgates are starting to crack open for true
innovation, mark my words. for yet more examples, look to the "grime"
scene in the UK for some really forward-looking rap.
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con safo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1230
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 23:20 |
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WHY.............WWWWHYYYYYY
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captainbeyond
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 23:20 |
Another point that has been suggested earlier but I think should be reiterated is that "progress" could come from the rap side OR it could come from the prog side. Prog itself might want to embrace certain elements of hip hop in order to keep its own spirit progressing. Perhaps it will be prog bands--perhaps those even on the fringes of prog--who will bring the "prog" to hip hop or rap. Artist/musician/producers such as Bill Laswell have been trying this for a little while now. His band Praxis has gone through several mutations that have truly combined metal, funk, prog structures and virtuousity and, yes, even rap--often at the same time. Whether that makes it "prog-rap" or not, I don't know. But it points to how the evolution could develop.
Someone else also pointed to Mr. Bungle and Primus. Especially considering the latter, I don't think anyone can question the virtuosity and prog cerdentials of Primus. And because of Les Claypool's limited vocal skills, he sings in not quite a rap style (more of a carnival barker style), but again points in a direction that prog rap could take. It may or may not be there just yet, but it certainly seems that there are ways it could travel and that the whole endeavor is neither impossible nor necessarily aesthetically abhorent....
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captainbeyond
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 23:07 |
IVAN,
I was relistening to DJ Shadow's "Endtroducing" earlier this evening. No, it is not "prog rock" in the sense of Yes or early Genesis. But in terms of being evocative, it is not far from Floyd's "Dark Side" (which is a spectacular album without being complex or virtuosic). Your requirement of virtuosity might not be met in the fingers-on-a-fretboard-or-keyboard sense but it is certainly there in terms of cutting and splicing of various musical pieces in inventive, imaginitive and MUSICAL ways. The album is not necessarily "rap," per se, but it is certainly of the "hip hop" world. Also, you may be interested in some drum 'n bass. Again, not "rap" but still informed by hip hop. Artists such as Squarepusher and Photek often deal in very tricky rhythms.
Just for kicks....
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pols
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 22:36 |
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oh yeah, and the musician/rapper k-os has an insanely complex, catchy
15-minute hip-hop song, i would check that out too: it's called
"papercutz"
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pols
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: December 05 2005 at 21:36 |
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I can't believe no one's said it yet (although I barely skimmed the posts, in honesty).
The group cLOUDDEAD can probably be called progressive hip-hop, or "prog-hop" or whatever you want to call it.
Actually, they're so far advanced musically that I feel they transcend
any definition of what "prog" or "hip-hop" is entirely. I highly
recommend their album "Ten".
Download the songs "Dead Dogs Two", "Physics of a Unicycle", "The Teen Keen Skip" and try to tell me your mind is not blown...
Edited by pols
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con safo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1230
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Posted: November 18 2005 at 17:10 |
What were you thinking MO  You've created a monster! 
Edited by con safo
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: November 18 2005 at 15:27 |
Flip_Stone wrote:
Rap and prog. are at opposite ends of the musical spectrum. Prog. is, well, progressive and expansive. Rap is regressive and minimalistic. Prog. is about creativity and musical exploration, with focus on instrumentation. Rap is about expressing a view, and the instrumentation is of little importance. The words and the beat are the focus, and the musical background only serves as the device to serve the message.
They simply don't mix. It's foolishness to try to combine the two.
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I don't understand why you think that makes it hard to mix. Rap focusses on the beat, and the music is of relatively little importance, which is exactly why, if more proggy music were added, it wouldn't detract from the "rapness" of the record at all, because to rap music the music isn't what's particularly relevant at the minute. Of course that's a generalisation.
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mortem
Forum Groupie
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 55
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 23:21 |
Flip_Stone wrote:
Rap and prog. are at opposite ends of the
musical spectrum. Prog. is, well, progressive and
expansive. Rap is regressive and minimalistic. Prog. is
about creativity and musical exploration, with focus on
instrumentation. Rap is about expressing a view, and the
instrumentation is of little importance. The words and the
beat are the focus, and the musical background only serves as the
device to serve the message.
They simply don't mix. It's foolishness to try to combine the two.
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100% agreed! 
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 23:15 |
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The Streets aren't your typical rap-based band..., not that I like The
Streets mind, but have a listen to them, you might be surprised.
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Flip_Stone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 388
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 18:33 |
Rap and prog. are at opposite ends of the musical spectrum. Prog. is, well, progressive and expansive. Rap is regressive and minimalistic. Prog. is about creativity and musical exploration, with focus on instrumentation. Rap is about expressing a view, and the instrumentation is of little importance. The words and the beat are the focus, and the musical background only serves as the device to serve the message.
They simply don't mix. It's foolishness to try to combine the two.
Edited by Flip_Stone
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 17:59 |
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Rap ain't prog....get a life.
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Badabec
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 14 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1313
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Posted: November 16 2005 at 16:07 |
magog wrote:
ivan_2068 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Because each
time has its music, and prog, -like it or not, for hundreds of reasons-
has some precise characters which has gone with seventies...I have
nothing against original opinions like yours, and this lounge raised a
great interest (9 pages till now, congratulations) but sometimes I have
the impression that limits of this wonderful music we all love are too
enlarged
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I get your point about Prog' being too wide today,
but I believe that's not the point, there are IMO some things that only
happen in this forum, many people who became Prog' fans after listening
other genres want to see their favorite band or style included as Prog,
almost as believing if being Progressive was the greatest achievement.
This started with Prog Metal, I of course agree that there are
definetely some bands that blended both influences and it works, but is
very common to see people that want to add a plain, doom, death metal
band in the Archives just because they had keyboards, despite the fact
they have no relation with Progressive Rock as a genre..
It's great that people like Bryan and Mike have enough knowledge to
include only what should be included. I disagree with them sometimes of
course (I disagree even with people who like classic Prog in some
things, we're intelligent beings and should not always agree, this
forum or anyone would be useless and change into fan clubs).
But this doesn't end here, some want to include their favorite band
of the youth (Journey, Toto, Boston, Nazareth, etc) as Prog', some
younger progheads love alternative Rock and try to include their
favorite Indie band.
If you read all the Progressive respected sites (which are few)
you'll see most of them agree in lets say 90% alll this sites have a
10% (Not exact average for those statistics experts) of bands that no
other sites share and send them into Art Rock, Prog Related or any
other wide box for not described bands, but I believe Prog Archives is
going too far.
Lately and especially here in Prog Archives, you can find people
that grew with Rap, Hip Hop or even Boys/Girls bands, and find some
merit in them, that I don't deny (even when strongly disagree), so
they want to find a way to mix both even (when IMO this is impossible
without both genres loosing their main characteristics) don't be
surprised that if some boy band stars singing things like Lucky Man,
Your Own Special Way or Owner of a Lonely Heart there will appear some
people who say they are prog' and the next step in the evolution, soon
will shout to the four winds that we are close minded because we
don't want to accept them.
The purists as me (Not asahamed of this, on the contrary very proud), who grew in the 70's (or early 80's as in my case), believe Prog' has survived ONLY because the genre has always tried to keep a safe distance from mainstream.
I honestly believe that more mixtures (some unnatural like Rap or
Hip Hop) will make Progressive Rock to loose identity and become a
hybrid that will soon be absorbed by stronger and much more
popular genres.
Iván
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Thank you very much, Ivan, for your long, clear and arguments rich
answer. I'm completely agree with you, expecially when you say not to
turn a forum into a fan-club: that means to find space for everybody
expression: always -I hope- under capable collaborators superview like
yours.
magog
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I agree in most points with you guys. You shouldn't mention bands like
radiohead, nightwish or faith no more in one breath with progressive
rock. I can't find anything progressive in their songs.
But even I don't like hip hop (believe me I love the classic prog-stuff like
Gentle Giant or Yes) I think it would be kind of interesting to listen
to rap in 11/8 or 19/16 or something like that.
Edited by Badabec
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magog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 06 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 218
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Posted: November 16 2005 at 06:59 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Magog wrote:
Because each
time has its music, and prog, -like it or not, for hundreds of reasons-
has some precise characters which has gone with seventies...I have
nothing against original opinions like yours, and this lounge raised a
great interest (9 pages till now, congratulations) but sometimes I have
the impression that limits of this wonderful music we all love are too
enlarged
|
I get your point about Prog' being too wide today,
but I believe that's not the point, there are IMO some things that only
happen in this forum, many people who became Prog' fans after listening
other genres want to see their favorite band or style included as Prog,
almost as believing if being Progressive was the greatest achievement.
This started with Prog Metal, I of course agree that there are
definetely some bands that blended both influences and it works, but is
very common to see people that want to add a plain, doom, death metal
band in the Archives just because they had keyboards, despite the fact
they have no relation with Progressive Rock as a genre..
It's great that people like Bryan and Mike have enough knowledge to
include only what should be included. I disagree with them sometimes of
course (I disagree even with people who like classic Prog in some
things, we're intelligent beings and should not always agree, this
forum or anyone would be useless and change into fan clubs).
But this doesn't end here, some want to include their favorite band
of the youth (Journey, Toto, Boston, Nazareth, etc) as Prog', some
younger progheads love alternative Rock and try to include their
favorite Indie band.
If you read all the Progressive respected sites (which are few)
you'll see most of them agree in lets say 90% alll this sites have a
10% (Not exact average for those statistics experts) of bands that no
other sites share and send them into Art Rock, Prog Related or any
other wide box for not described bands, but I believe Prog Archives is
going too far.
Lately and especially here in Prog Archives, you can find people
that grew with Rap, Hip Hop or even Boys/Girls bands, and find some
merit in them, that I don't deny (even when strongly disagree), so
they want to find a way to mix both even (when IMO this is impossible
without both genres loosing their main characteristics) don't be
surprised that if some boy band stars singing things like Lucky Man,
Your Own Special Way or Owner of a Lonely Heart there will appear some
people who say they are prog' and the next step in the evolution, soon
will shout to the four winds that we are close minded because we
don't want to accept them.
The purists as me (Not asahamed of this, on the contrary very proud), who grew in the 70's (or early 80's as in my case), believe Prog' has survived ONLY because the genre has always tried to keep a safe distance from mainstream.
I honestly believe that more mixtures (some unnatural like Rap or
Hip Hop) will make Progressive Rock to loose identity and become a
hybrid that will soon be absorbed by stronger and much more
popular genres.
Iván
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Thank you very much, Ivan, for your long, clear and arguments rich
answer. I'm completely agree with you, expecially when you say not to
turn a forum into a fan-club: that means to find space for everybody
expression: always -I hope- under capable collaborators superview like
yours.
magog
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We -need- progressive rap.
