Man Overboard wrote: At the very least, it would be insanely awesome if there was a single -album- that had the intention of fusing prog with rap...  full band, tons of ambition...  it could be amazing.  40 minutes of something that would surprise the hell out of everyone.

you'll have to work EXTREMELY hard to convince me!

I agree.  Hip-Hop is sorely misunderstood

Man Overboard, ever tried anything by a group called The Roots?  one of the few mainstream groups I listen to, they throw off a great jazzy/laid back vibe that is just great.  and it's all done with live instrumentation.

Deffintly!

You get a hot Prog band ( a real Drummer, a synth or two, a guitarist, and a big black bass player) to lay down a hiphop/ rap groove that has characteristic of Prog. ( intricate harmonies, time/key changes, instrumentals and solos) But all of it keeps the hip hop/rap feel and ideas. Plus all the lyrics are rapped. Rapping harmonies anyone?!

Actually when ever someone asks me to beat box, I always do it in 5/4. Most people don't even notice and they can rap just fine in it.

* buh bshh bshh bu duh!*

I don't think hip-hop is progressing the same way rock did, I don't expect to hear any 20 minute turntable solos anytime soon.

But the underground rap is very interesting. My favorite is Antipop Consortium.

I disagree with anyone who generalizes rap, just as anyone generalizes prog..doesn't make sense and usually means the person talking doesn't really have much knowledge about the genre they are dissing (hey, look, I used a rap term!).

Public Enemy, one of the best rap bands ever, had a ton of ingenuity and inventiveness, and of course, was probably one of the most socially aware and intelligent. De La Soul sampled everyone from Hall and Oates to the Turtles to Black Sabbath. It all depends on what they kids grew up listening to. De La Soul listened to a lot of mainstream rock growing up, so they sampled much of that. Michael Franti/Spearhead make songs that remind you of Prince, Sly Stone, and even Devo, because he listened and listens to a very wide variety of music. I have heard several of these artists mention prog bands in admiration.

Dunno if the two genres can mix, but anything is possible.

Nipsey88 wrote: gdub411 wrote: Actually it has been done. Burnt Noodle raps in one of their songs with very experimental music going on in the backround Hmm, have heard the name but have never heard their stuff. I certainly will check it out now.

I must warn you. It is mostly improvisational music that happened to be recorded by a few musicians who were "noodling" around...hence the name.

greenback wrote: Man Overboard wrote: At the very least, it would be insanely awesome if there was a single -album- that had the intention of fusing prog with rap...  full band, tons of ambition...  it could be amazing.  40 minutes of something that would surprise the hell out of everyone.   you'll have to work EXTREMELY hard to convince me!

Don't even try it with me, both genres are simply not compatible. Some rap (that I heven't heard yet) may be interesting, but no way I could ever believe in it.

Iván

Golden Spiral wrote:

some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here....

Why closed minded?

I judge Rap by the general rule, by the 100% of rap I listened, I know people always talk about some great obscure Rap bands, but nobody can create a sub-genre based in exceptions.

The  essense of Rap is to be a mainly vocal style, created to be repetitive and absolutely commercial.

There may be good rap? I don't know, not an expert but it's possible.

Can I consider both genres can blend? No, a rap band that assumes Prog structure would cease to be Rap, in Rap the virtuosism of the musicians is not important (again there may be exceptions) but in Progressive Rock it's esential.

I can listen and enjoy many genres of music but I don't find the need to try to mix water and oil when we know both have different densities (structure) and it's impossible. If you like Rap, OK, enjoy it, but don't try to convince people it can blend with Progressive Rock as a genre.

And much less call closed minded to the ones that have been fans of an almost underground and unpopular genre for decades, listening something as Prog Rock that 99% of the people hate and/or ignore is far from being close minded.

Iván

Imagine a hip-hop group that uses special instruments, experiments with electronics and effects (beyond the standard ones), uses different vocal techniques (i.e. improvisation and effects), makes long epic songs with plenty of inventive beats, rhythm changes and instrumental interludes.  It would still sound like hip hop (or trip-hop), but it would be like nothing that's ever been done.  it's possible..

Things are determined by their essense, if all about you're talking is added to Rap or Hip Hop then it would go against Rap or Hip Hop essence and would be something different.

If a modern Classical Composer starts playing with Gothic Classical instruments, Gothic tempo and Gothic structure he will cease to be modern, his music will be Classical Gothic done today but would never be considered Modern Classical.

Iván

No way,rap is for suckersI`m not really into categorising music,but if you mean rap like in talking lyrics and that other sh*t.No wayAnd by the way,before someone starts saying that i`m ignorant and so on.I really am not,its just that talking music is not something i see in the future for prog.

I've never met a rap band/artist I liked. But I'd like to.

The Roots, I've heard a little of their stuff, and it sounds pretty cool. I'd check them out, certainly.

I amend my previous statement: I do like some Outkast material, but I'd never call it "intelligent art music". I just wish rap could be a little more MUSICAL. As opposed to making "anthems" for teenagers who like to think they're sex gods? Wasn't rap originally supposed to be rebellious and innovative? Like punk, a little, it's now very crass and tame.

ivan_2068 wrote: Golden Spiral wrote: some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here....  Why closed minded? I judge Rap by the general rule, by the 100% of rap I listened, I know people always talk about some great obscure Rap bands, but nobody can create a sub-genre based in exceptions. The  essense of Rap is to be a mainly vocal style, created to be repetitive and absolutely commercial. There may be good rap? I don't know, not an expert but it's possible. Can I consider both genres can blend? No, a rap band that assumes Prog structure would cease to be Rap, in Rap the virtuosism of the musicians is not important (again there may be exceptions) but in Progressive Rock it's esential. I can listen and enjoy many genres of music but I don't find the need to try to mix water and oil when we know both have different densities (structure) and it's impossible. If you like Rap, OK, enjoy it, but don't try to convince people it can blend with Progressive Rock as a genre. And much less call closed minded to the ones that have been fans of an almost underground and unpopular genre for decades, listening something as Prog Rock that 99% of the people hate and/or ignore is far from being close minded. Iván

This is a completly ignorant statement. The essence of rap is actually the same as the essence of blues and gospel music. It comes straight form the heart. An expression of how the artist is feeling. very emotional. That is the essence of rap. Mainstream rap has taken that and made it crap. But to say the the purpose of rap is to be commercial is bullsh*t. This art was created in the days of HairMetal. I'm sure noone though of it as becoming mainstream music. It jsut happened like that

There is most defffinatly good rap somewhere out there.

Rap music can blend with any genre. If you take the same vocal and lyrical style and apply it to a prog band( but wiht a little more rap/hiphop groove in the drums and synth and bass). A prog band in its essence is experimental and innovative. A prog band can play rap beats that shift time signitures and key saignitures and goes into complicated passages but still resemble the music of rap and hip hop.

Then you say that we shouldnt mix oil and water. What the fuc k do you think Progressive rock is?! " lets take ideas form classical and fusion and put them into Rock and Roll" " Are you crazy?! that's like mixing oil and water! that will never work" BUT IT DOES!!! And it was that mix of oila dn water that brought to here to this site.

prog is about be openminded to everything! No matter how farfetched it seems, prog fans embrace it because thats what its all about. Trial and Error. We dont hang around formulas and sameness We innovate and complicate. we fuse and redirect. Its people like you that slow down the revoloution of music. We cannot be closed minded if we want to continue prog.

ivan_2068 wrote: Imagine a hip-hop group that uses special instruments, experiments with electronics and effects (beyond the standard ones), uses different vocal techniques (i.e. improvisation and effects), makes long epic songs with plenty of inventive beats, rhythm changes and instrumental interludes.  It would still sound like hip hop (or trip-hop), but it would be like nothing that's ever been done.  it's possible.. Things are determined by their essense, if all about you're talking is added to Rap or Hip Hop then it would go against Rap or Hip Hop essence and would be something different. If a modern Classical Composer starts playing with Gothic Classical instruments, Gothic tempo and Gothic structure he will cease to be modern, his music will be Classical Gothic done today but would never be considered Modern Classical. Iván

Oh come on!  What were talking about would be a moderne compser using a gothic structure to incorperate and and new flavour to his moderne ideas. and that would be considered Moderne Classical

Prsonaly, if there wa any such thing as a prog rap band, they would have to be very good instrumentaly and make full use of that. I cant stand rap for two reasons:

1. The mainstream stuff is the only stuff ive heard so its the only thing ive got to go on but it lacks any sort of skill in any department and i find it rather vulgar and crass.
2. I like listening to people sing that means stratching their vocals and using different notes for different lengths of time, rap in essance has nothing of the sort and so i can never truly like it because a rapers talants would always be second best to a singers.

If, however, any band wishes to go "prog rap" then good for them and i will give them a listen to find out what its like.

Well, it's time to answer some agressive comments:

Ty 1020 wrote:

And Ivan, what rap artists are you familar with? When you say that rap is fundamentally commercial, it leads me to believe that you've only heard the commercial rappers, none of whom I find to be representative of the genre as a whole. Underground rap isn't an exception at all, it represents the majority of music in the genre...

Read my whole post, I already said I listened rap in commercial radios, the same commercial radios in which I listened The Who, Yes, King Crimson and early Genesis (of course during the classic Rock hours) but I never heard a decent Rap song in any hour of the day.

But let me ask you a question. All the rap played in the radios is crap and represents at least 90% of the ghenre (if not more).

UNDRGROUND RAP? In your own words you're giving me the reason, undergrown means bellow the ground, hidden, almost not noticeable for most of the world, then by YOUR definition we're talking about an exception.

Ty 1020 wrote:

It's like me hearing We Can't Dance and Owner of a Lonely Heart on the radio and judging prog based on that kind of thing.

Owner of a Lonely Heart or We Can't dance are not progressive rock songs, so you can't judge Progressive Rock for something that it's not Progressive Rock!!!!

MC Hammer. Eminem, Vanilla Ice and all the crap played in the radios IS RAP, so I'm judging rap with  Rap examples. 

BePink theater wrote:

This is a completly ignorant statement. The essence of rap is actually the same as the essence of blues and gospel music. It comes straight form the heart.

In fiirst place, there are some rules of respect in the forums, if you read my posts I never called ignorant to any member talking in favor of Rap Prog or called their statements ignorant, so I ask the same treatment to myself, I believe I'm entitled to it because of my behaviour.

Then, again read my posts I'M TALKING ABOUT THE STRUCTURAL ESSENSE, I don't know if Rap comes from the heart or from the wallets of the artists, and to be honest I couldn't care less, all those words are cliché, the heart is only a bomb that pumps blood to the lungs, no sentiment or feeliing can come from there.

Music comes from the brain, Progressive Rock is an intelligent genre, because most musicians require a formal education, capacity, virtuosism, abbility to blend elements of different nature without sounding artificial, etc. Most Rap is not an intelligent genre, the vast musicians of this genre have no formation at al or maybe small, they don't try to blend elements or anything similar, their works don't improve, they just repeat a profitable formula, so I believe both genres are like water and oil.

Of course there's an emotional component, there's no Prog' without it, but Prog without feeling can exist, there ar a lot of very technicall but cold bands that sound well, but feeling alone is not enough for Progressive Rock, just check the background of most Prog musicians and he background of most rappers. 

May sound snobbish, but it's a fact. most soloist have classical or formal musical education, and each band has at least one of two members clasically trained.

MOST Rap is an easy way to earn millions for people that have a few or not any musical talent, most rappers are guys just speak fast with a repetitive rhythm and talk about the unfair system wearing a $ 10,000 gold chain on their necks.

BePink theater wrote:

Then you say that we shouldnt mix oil and water. What the fuc k do you think Progressive rock is?!

Classical Music, Rock, Jazz. Folk etc are genres based in melody, rhythm, structures and can blend perfectly, there are a lot of examples of Classical blending with Jazz, even berore Rock existed and Jazz is an ancester of Rock, so they can also blend perfectly.

MOST Rap is only the repetition ad nauseam of one single chord along 3 or 4 minutes so it has absolutely nothing in common with Rock, Classical or even Jazz.

BePink theater wrote:

Its people like you that slow down the revoloution of music. We cannot be closed minded if we want to continue prog.

You're wrong, the people that slow musical evolution are from the musical industry that spend millions (and earn more millions) on untalented Rappers. Hip Hoppers and Boys/Girls Band musicians, but refuse to take the risk to support talented musicians with a solid formation, and also those millions of musical listeners that don't care about the quality oif the musician but only about how well Eminem dress, how cute Britney is, how cool and accepted by society they feel when listening this pseudo music.

Be Pink Theater wrote:

Oh come on!  What were talking about would be a moderne compser using a gothic structure to incorperate and and new flavour to his moderne ideas. and that would be considered Moderne Classical

Again read my post, I'm talking about Gothic Classical musical structure, instruments, tempo, etc played by a musician born in the Modern era, not about a fusion of two eras, read before you answer.

Just as an example, Wagner was playing complex modern music in the beginnings of the Romantic era.

Despite he was a Romantic composer based on hisf birth certificate, his music is essentially modern and adventurous, who dared before to make a 16 hours work like The Ring of the Nibelungen?

Iván

Well rap is focusing more on rhytms and lyrics than on music...so no matter how it is presented it aint going to get good...

Sorry

 I’m 28 years old;

Old fashioned person ; prefer symphonic rock;

I do like some of the rap music like ‘vanilla ice’ – ice ice baby

Rap is different than prog

if you have interasting prog rap music ; please let me know

i'm open to idea

i know deltron 3030, and it is always the same pattern: they talk, talk, talk and talk!

deltron 3030: they have some original moments, but globally it is really bad and not listenable!

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/listenwatch/0,,1007705,00.html - http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/listenwatch/0,, 1007705,00.html

sage francis: definitely BAD rap!!

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,3144078,00.html - http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,314407 8,00.html

No, i'm with Ivan: rap & prog are incompatible!

This is anti-prog music!

However, Mc Solaar has better rap compositions, and it is among the best rap i have ever heard:

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,940166,00.html - http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,940166 ,00.html

unfortunately, i still find it too boring and insipid!

ivan wrote: Read my whole post, I already said I listened rap in commercial radios, the same commercial radios in which I listened The Who, Yes, King Crimson and early Genesis (of course during the classic Rock hours) but I never heard a decent Rap song in any hour of the day.

ivan wrote: UNDRGROUND RAP? In your own words you're giving me the reason, undergrown means bellow the ground, hidden, almost not noticeable for most of the world, then by YOUR definition we're talking about an exception.

Let's reverse your logic a bit. I have never heard any real prog on the radio in my entire life; the only music I've heard by prog bands is the 80's pop work of bands like Yes and Genesis, which I hated. Would it be fair for me to assume, then, that good prog doesn't exist? Of course not. If you showed me Close to the Edge and I loved it, would it make sense for me to dismiss it as an "exception" just because I hadn't heard any other good prog? No!  By taking the time to research the genre and trying out some of the good bands, I'd soon find that my opinion of it was terribly wrong. You'd have the same revelation with rap if you just took the time to be open-minded and actually look into it, which is something I'd highly suggest doing.

Ty1020 wrote:

I can understand why you might think that underground rap is the exception,

I didn't used the word underground, you chosed it to describe the "vast majority" of great Rap bands you say that exist.

Underground: 1 : beneath the surface of the earth
2 : in or into hiding or secret operation

So, must we believe there are hundreed of thousand great rap bands having secret operations beneath the surface, planning to invade the earth wit fantastic Rap?

Undeground is a word used to describe almost unknown and short number of elements, if you used that word, it's not my fault.

Ty1020 wrote:

Where on earth did you get that ridiculous statistic from? It's about as far from the truth as possible. The rap played on the radio represents a very small fraction of what the genre has to offer, and sounds radically different from the good stuff, which receives no radio play.

Where are this fabulous bands that get absolutely no airplay, even King Crimson or the most complex Progressive bands got airplay in their moment and still they have it.

List those inmense anumber of great Rap bands among the world because by a simple deduction:

1. The radios are flooded with rap, 
2.  You say that's only the tip of the iceberg,
3. Then we must accept Rap covers the worldn (and the underworld).

If great Rap is the bigest part of the genre, then mention at least 100 absolutely great Rap bands, even if you did so (what I doubt) it would be a minimal percentage of the rap bands.

By simple logic your deduction is absurd, maybe not 90%, maybe 99% or 80% of the Rap is crap but really nobody here has ever mentioned more than two or three suposedly great Rap musicians in comparison whith the thousand of bands that recieve their chance on radios.

Ty1020 wrote:

I have never heard any real prog on the radio in my entire life; the only music I've heard by prog bands is the 80's pop work of bands like Yes and Genesis

You said it, in that case you wouldn't have heard a single progressive rock song you only heard POP played by former Progressive Rock bands, so you would be unable to make an opinion about Progressive rock.

If a person have only heard MC Hammer or Eminem, that person has listened RAP, because want it or not, like or not, MC Hammer and Eminem always played rap (Well I heard Eminem is making Heavy Metal albums recently ).

So search for a better example.

Ty1020 wrote:

Would it be fair for me to assume, then, that good prog doesn't exist?

For the third time READ MY POSTS BEFORE YOU ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. I never said good Rap doesn't exist
2. I admit the posibility of good rap (even when I haven't heard it).
3. I said that I'm not an expert in rap.
4. I said and I stand on my point of view that there's no chance for Progressive Rap.

You're the one calling me ignorant, close minded and the public enemy of musical evolution.

So again use valid arguments and don't come to me with technicaities, because I'm a lawyer and for that reason I can smell a technicality before I see it.

Iván

Where are this fabulopus bands that get absolutely no airplay, even King Crimson or the most complex Progressive bands got airplay in their moment and still they got.

If great Rap is the bigest part of the genre, then mention at least 100 absolutely great Rap bands, even if you did so (what I doubt) it would be a minimal percentage of the rap bands. By simple logic your deduction is absurd, maybe not 90%, maybe 99% or 80% of the Rap is crap but really nobody here has ever mentioned more than two or three suposedly great Rap musicians in comparison whith the thousand of bands that recieve their chance on radios.

I think you've misunderstood me, also: I never said great rap was the biggest part of the genre. I simply meant that most rap artists are much more interesting than the ones you've heard and include better lyrics and lyricism, better instrumentation, etc.

There is no musical genre out there in which the majority of the artists are great, and to assume that there is would be absurd. The only exception to this rule I can think of is prog, because one of the conditions of the genre is that the music is interesting and/or complex. However, look at all the genres prog has been fused with in the past - rock, metal, jazz, avant-garde, and so on. In any of those genres, there are very few truly great bands, yet they've been successfully fused with prog, so I see no reason the same thing can't happen with rap. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that most rap is interesting and much better than the rap you're familiar with, which is true.

You said it, in that case yopu wouldn't have heard a single progressive rock song you only heard POP played by former Progressive Rock bands, so you would be unable to make an opinion about Progressive rock, If a person have only heard MC Hammer or Eminem, that person has listened RAP, because want it or not, like or not that music is rap. So search for a better example.

For the third time READ MY POSTS BEFOIRE YOIU ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!! I never said good Rap doesn't exist I admit the posibility of good rap (even when I haven't heard it). I said that I'm not an expert in rap. I said and I stand on my point of view that there's no chance for Progressive Rap. So again use valid arguments and don't come to me with technicaities, because I'm a lawyer and for that reason I can smell a technicality before I see it. BTW: Don't avoid parts of the posts and take words out of it's context, doesn't work.

Firstly, your assumptions are wrong so I'd like to appologize if I presented myself in such a way; I didn't mean to take anything out of context and I was in now way trying to twist your words. I suppose I just misunderstood you and didn't communicate my ideas as clearly as I would have liked to.

Anyways, looking at points 1 and 2, I'm glad you're aware that good rap is out there, but one thing I'd like to make clear is that it is not an exception in the genre at all. There are far more underground rap artists out there than there are mainstream ones; please just be aware of that.

As for point 3, that should be reason enough for you to not argue so strongly against it. You seem to really dislike the genre, and I don't blame you - if I'd only heard the terrible rap you have, I'd think the same thing. I did for years. However, once you really get into the genre, you'll find that rap can be a lot more interesting - both lyrically and musically - than you think. You may not like it, which is fine, but you'll at least see that it's not as simple or boring as you think.

Finally, would you please explain why you stand by that point of view? I know you've explained yourself numerous times, but your arguments have always been based on your lack of actual knowledge of the genre, so I'd like to hear why you think it's impossible without mentioning how bad the rap you've heard is. We all know it's bad, and we can all agree on that, but that fact is completely unrelated to the argument at hand.

As I said before: I don't understand why everone here is trying to pidgeon-hole rap and create artificial rules about what can and cannot be done within the genre. Progressive music is all about not following such rules; it's about thinking outside the box and trying new things. Why are so many of you acting as if that's impossible in this case? It doesn't make any sense to me.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/Ty1020/">

^Word of the day^

Ty 1020 wrote:

Like I said, I've never heard prog on the radio. Just because the radio played good music 30 years ago doesn't mean it still does; you have to realize that the mainstream media today is much different than it was in the 70's, and it's very rare to hear anything good or interesting on the radio

I know that, but just in this moment I'm listening Birds of Fire by Mahavishnu Orchestra in Stereo Lima 100, and never heard in any radio good rap.

Ty1020 wrote:

This is even more true with rap, a genre in which virtually none of the mainstream artists have any redeeming qualities. The majority of the rap community hates those "artists

Have you ever studied logics? Please read your arguments.  Rap community is the biggest in the world right know, if not N° 1 at least N°2, that's a fact.

You say most Rap community hates mainstream artists.

Then using simple logic most people in the world hate mainstrean Rap artists:

• Why in hell does Music Industry still release music that most of the world hates?
• How in hell is mainstream Rap music so massively bought if most Rap community hates them?
• Doesn't music industry wants to gain money?
• If you said yes, why do they insist in musicians most of the rap community hates (but buys massively.

Your argument has no logic support, and you're talking as a fan more than as a person who wants to reach some degree of truth. I'm a Progressive fan fopr 28 years, and I must accept Prog is unpopular and underground, but not just good Prog', bad Prog is also unpopular, but Rap is popular, the Rap community is big and buys mainstream..........PLEASE

There are far more underground rap artists out there than there are mainstream ones

Please again????????? Why in that case mainstream Rap sells milliopns of albums among a community that in it's mmajority hates it????????

Why are great Rap bands so underground that almost nobody has heard about them if they are so popular?

If good Rap band fans were more than mainstream Rap fans, Music Industry would inmediately stop wasting their money in crappy musicians, because they want to earn money  and they automatically support what is more popular.

But they still support he career of crappy musicians and are more wealthy everyday.

Again, please think before you write.

I'm glad you're aware that good rap is out there

Never said that either, I said I admit the posibility of good Rap as I admit the posibility of aliens living under the surface of Mars, professional wrestling is for real or that women burn in Salem were in fact witches

Finally, would you please explain why you stand by that point of view?

In what I heard and in simple logic.

The most popular music is supported by music industry, if good rap was more popular (or even existed) we would never hear again about Eminem, MC Hammer or Queen Latifa.

Iván

Ivan: Again, there's been a miscommunication on my part. When I referred to the "rap community," I meant people who actually listen to rap as music and appreciate it, not the people who listen to radio rap like 50 Cent just because it's popular. Those people aren't rap fans - they're popular music fans. If rap wasn't popular, most of them wouldn't listen to it, and therefore I do not include them as a part of the rap community.

I know what you're trying to say, but I was only trying to reach this point when you admit crappy Rap is more popular and for that reason is the vast majority of the genre.

The point is that you love to argue but you get trapped in your own web because you refuse to admit that the great majority of Rap is the one played in the radios and it's crap. Each day the music industry creates hundreed of 50 cent Rappers, terible hip hopper and disposable boys/girls bands, that's a fact, they have the money, they own the mind of most people so they are more, as simple as that.

IMO most of the music played in radios is crap, so I have to admit that most music is not remotely connected to Progressive Rock.

Yes it's possible there's some good Rap but as most good music is the great minority.

But still I don't see Progressive Rap as a  posibility.

Iván

I don't understand why everone here is trying to pidgeon-hole rap and create artificial rules about what can and cannot be done within the genre. Progressive music is all about not following such rules; it's about thinking outside the box and trying new things. Why are so many of you acting as if that's impossible in this case? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Ok. I'lll answer this:

1. Rules are not artificial, there's something called musical structure, Progressive ROCK bends this rules, makes them flexible, but we can't completely break the rules, Progressive Rock is mainly melody, influences, fusion of genres,  rhythm, structure and sometimes lyrics.
2. Progressive Rock is very flexible, but one of it's main characteristics is that it's a well structured genre, so the rules and musical canons are not artificial.
3. Rap doesn't give importance to melody, it's mainly a rhythm and vocals genre, so IMO is outside of the reach of Progressive Rock.

And don't start again with your majority of great rap bands please, because any person knows that isn't true.

Iván

I don't understand what you mean by that - it's not some random fact I'm trying to produce here, it's only natural that the majority of the bands in any given genre won't be popular.

Please don't come me with technicalities again, if we talk about any 4 kids wthat play on their garage, or wedding singers, of course there are more, but we are talking here about formal bands, don't try to escape to reality.

And for each good garage rapper you'll find 500 crappy ones trying to seek for the formula to make easy money.

Have you ever seen American Idol for God's sake, there are tousand of terrible amateurs singing crappy music, but they are so bad that seem like a joke.

I believe that it would be entirely possible to have more melody-focused rap with odd time signatures

Yes, and probably in 5'000,000 years pigs will fly outside a Pink Floyd concert, but in this utopic scenario It would stop being rap, read history of rap, read how it began with Jamaican born DJ Kool Herc (with no formal musical training or knowledge of structures) and how scratching was accidentally created by Grand Wizard Theodore, and you'll find that the essense of Rap is improvising with no care for melody or structure, rap is an artificial form of Jamaican Toasting, nothing else.

But you can call me when such a wonder is created.

Iván

con safo wrote: And the notion that there is more popular hip hop than underground is absolutely ludicrous, and honestly i can't understand how you're still argueing it after being proven so very wrong. And no i'm not talking about every kid out there trying to be 50 cent but actually legitimate recording artists.

Please, have you been following this thread? Do you know where it all started?

Ty1020 affirms that most rap underground bands are great and that only the radio stuff is crappy. I don't care how many unknown rap bands there are, but nobody will come here and say that all the rap bands we don't know are great and that radio crap doesn't represent the rap genre.

Rap is represented by every Rap band in radio as much as by any underground and secret wonder that maybe could exist.

So take your time before jumping into the ring.

Iván

Please ConSafo, you know all this artists represent the genre, all we hear in radio and TV is recognized as Rap,  maybe there's another version of rap only for experts but I haven't heard it. There's also good and terrible Prog, and all represent the genre.

If you are fan of a genre, you must accept there are good and bad things on it, and sadly all the rap muusic availlable for the normal person is crap.

How easy would it be to say Ok man Trilogy is Prog but Love Beach is not, for God's sake, both are Prog, one iss good and the other one sucks, that's all.

Iván

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Sometihng that has been said a few times since my last post is that Rap music is mainly about the Lyrics, andr Rythm. it is also less intelligent and does not have musical virtuosity.

I think these people are missing the point. What we mean is taking the ideals and styles of Prog and Rap and combining them

In a nutshell:

Music with a solid rythmic based feel, that is progressivly changing in style and time meter

Intelligent heartfelt lyrics that are rapped in a raping style

long solo passages and intricate viruostic playing with the groove and feel of hip hop

I might be missing some points, but give me a brake its pretty late...

Man Overboard wrote: I'm listening to the new Sage Francis...  it's -so- -close-...  tons of creative musical elements, lots of time changes, insanely intelligent lyrics...  if we could just take that -next- -step-... ...I despise mainstream rap, but there's underground stuff that's seriously great.  If we could combine it with prog, I'd embrace it.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion here as to why, I would like to say that I actually agree with what MO says here; it's really the next inevitable evolution of prog. I mean, if it's the credo of this website to embrace all forms of progressive rock, then whatever latest form it's currently in will (and probably already has begun to) begin to work in clever, edgy, provacative hip hop styles. It's really not that radical a concept.

I mean, on the next Porcupine Tree CD, if Steve Wilson begins some sort of trippy rap over a weird Floydian soundscape, I bet it's going to sound cool...

Ty1020 wrote: Lateralus_66 wrote: Is it possible to mix pop and progressive? NO - Then what do you call Asia, Styx, Supertramp, and so on? Asia, Supertramp and Styx are not a mixture of Prog and Pop (Well I don't believe Supertramp is Prog except for a couple of somngs), Asia and Styx played in the borderline that divides mainstream from Progressive Rock but never mixed POP and Prog elements they simply did some Prog songs and others Not Prog, probably closer to mainstream, but not necesarilly POP. Is it possible to mix same rap beat and sophisticated time signatures? NO - Why not? A rap song in 7/8 or 5/4 would not only be entirely possible, but would also probably be rather interesting to listen to. I'm sure it's already been done numerous times. Would be possible,  would probabbly be interesting, I'm sure it's been done, blah blah blah, all posibilities and not demonstrated facts, not a very strong argument Does it have RAP “talented musicians who work with virtuosity”? NO - There are plenty of rap groups who are made up of talented musicians. The Roots, anybody? Again plenty, but who?  I admit there's a chance, but still haven't been introduced to any of this strange phenomenums of nature. Another post based on a very limited knowledge of the genre. Next, please. Until now I believed you were only a rap fan with good intentions but now you graduated as a complete pedant, Limited knowledge??? Who you believe you are? The owner of the musical Holy Grial??? Next please??? What have you proved, ask all the members of this or any Prgressive Rock forum if they believe in the psossibility of Progressive Rap the percentage will amaze you, in other forums people won't be as polite as here. You keep talking about great Rap bands, but who, where and when? If you ask here for great Prog Bands, probably most members will give you at least 100 names. If you ask here for great Classic Rock bands, people will be able to give you at least 100 names Maybe a less number but still valuable Folk, Jazz, Fusion etc. But you keep talking about secret and mysterious great Rap bands that only experts in the genre know. I'm starting to believe there's a secret conspiracy to keep great rap only for secret society. Moreover, you just tried to compare rap with progressive rock. Obviously the two are not immediately compatible; rock is rock and rap is rap. We were talking about the possibility of progressive rap, not progressive rock-rap or anything like that. Well, call us when this is real, we're talking about reality not about utopic dreams, and by my part, I believe this is enough, I'm tired of talking about a genre that TODAY has no relation with Progressive Rock, and I hope will never have.

Iván

EDIT:

progressive rap, not progressive rock-rap or anything like that.

I didn't noticed this gem, for your information, this is a forum dedicated to PROGRESSIVE ROCK as a genre, Progressive is an adjective you can add to any band that you believe has gone beyond common mainstream.

If you're not talking about PROGRESSIVE ROCK GENRE, there is another reason to forget this thread, we're talking two different languages.

Con Safo wrote:

just to name a few. ivan, at first i respected your right to disagree on this situation, but your last post has severely changed my mind, as its one of the most ignorant things i've read in this thread so far. I'm no hip hop expert nor do i claim to be, but i could direct you towards some REAL hip hop experts and you can try your hand at them.

I congratulate you for knowing the name of 17 bands:

1. I only heard comments about Sage Francis and aren't very good,
2. The Beastie Boys sound like crap to me (just being plain honest), BTW what in hell are they Rappers, Punks or self proclaimed Rock stars?
3. I also had a chance to listen Inmortal Technique (revolutionary Vol. 1) because I was doing a research (only for curiosity) about bands influenced or related with  this Peruvian rapper and Chuck D influence, and it's only cheap political Propaganda  with no musical value IMO.

With this small knowkledge of great Rap bands, my opinion hasn't changed at all.

I won't have a chance to talk with Hip Hop experts about their genre (and honestly wouldn't care less)  as they won't last one minute talking about Progressive Rock with me, but I haven't claimed being an expert as Ty1020.

So again, you're only giving your opinion at least I heard two of the mentioned bands and still I keep the same opinion.

Just to end, i never called anybody ignorant or diminished his opinions, something you and Ty have done repeteadly, so your last statement describes yourselves, I can't continue answering posts of people that replies with agressive comments, and If I was agressive with ty is because his pompous comments to lateralus post.

Iván

Rap sucks and that's all there is to it.  Rap cannot progress because rapping is talking in rhythm, what would you do to revolutionize it, rhythm-talk faster?  I think Busta Rhymes did that and it ended up sucking even worse.  I've heard underground hip-hop such as Zion-I and other stuff but it's basically the same thing, just with more musical and complex backgrounds which are mainly SAMPLED.  One of the main attributes that defines rap is the ability to dance, move, or bob your head up and down repeatedly to the 4/4 rhythm, it's all about feeling the groove and I'm sorry but it's simply impossible to do with any other time signature.  Another reason that progressive-rap is impossible is that there is simply no audience for it.  There is simply no demand for progressive-rap music because people who listen to rap don't care about music, they just care about the words, concepts, or feelings of being 'hard' or 'cool' when listening to it.  It's basically just to make little suburban white kids feel like they're more bad-ass.  Plus most rap listeners, and I say most, going back to the limited audience argument, are incapable of demanding a new or boundary-breaking form of music because most of them have a limited amount of brain cells and are incapable of envisioning anything other than the status quo, i.e. the next 50-cent song that talks about new hoes, new models of cars with a new 5 second beat to repeat itself 500 times!  I guarantee if progressive rap came out, rap fans everywhere would proclaim its "wackness" and would not be interested in it because it hasn't passed the PEER Review test of at least a million Americans, which if it did, they would certainly think it was cool, because rap fans are TREND FOLLOWERS.  It would simply be too hard for these trend followers to switch gears and start a new trend.  Not many are adventurous enough on their own to go off the beaten path and start listening to something else.  Keep in mind these are the same people who watch MTV and see the new "sick" rapper and just have to have the album.    

You guys asked if it was possible and I gave a pretty coherent argument as to why it isn't.  Asking if progressive-rap is possible is almost like asking if progressive country or progressive boy-bands are possible.  Sure it's probably possible if someone was to REALLY try at it, but would me or anyone else want to listen to it, NO.       

new here.

has anyone heard of gruvis malt? it's not really progressive rock.. more of jazz/funk with some rap parts.  their music sounds fresh, with a few odd time signatures, interesting chords.  i'm saying that good progressive rock with rap elements may be possible, but to make a purely rap/hip-hop group progressive would be another thing.

OKAY, all of you, I think i have something interesting here!

not that i want to promote and worship rap, FAR FROM THAT, i just want to tell you that i've made a research about more "elaborated-sophisticated" rap, and i think i found what some people here try to explain us: rap tracks that borrow some very light rock structures, not prog, but more structured and significant, with more elaborated and melodic keyboards. i don't want to name it prog rap, far from that, but i want to show you that there are better rap artists than others, and the better ones are not really known by the mainstream. the name of the artist is UNDERGROUND COMMITTEE, and i have below all the clips of the album tracks. here are my comments according to what i listened: Ivan et al ,just listen to this:

http://www.music.com/release/the_prophecy/4/ - http://www.music.com/release/the_prophecy/4/

track 1 sounds a bit like suzanne ciani's electronic new age!! admit it is surprisingly good for a rap artist!!

track 2 has nothing to do with rap: it is a pure neo prog-like intro!

the keyboards on track 4 sound slightly proggish, but it is too repetitive to be completely prog!

on track 5, despite the presence of a good organ sound, the keyboards patterns are too repetitive to be prog.

the keyboards on track 6 are close to the possible arrangement of a cheap neo prog track, but , again, it is too repetitive to be called prog rap.

track 7 probably has the most progressive keyboards arrangements, but the voices kill everything that could be interesting.

track 8 has a good combination of organ and percussive synthesizers, but they are too repetitive to be called pro rap.

track 10 is too lazy, nunchalent and slow, so that it dangerously approaches the mainstream style.

just focus on the vocals on track 12: notice that they are impressively fully synchronized and interlocking, evoking a bit some good Zappa's vocals performance of the 80's. however, the music, despite not disgraceful, is amazingly empty....

To conclude, this is the best rap i have listened so far, still absolutely not progressive at all; when comes time to rate this record, 2 stars is the best i can give, because i prefer patrick moraz's timecode, which is at 2,5 stars!