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Topic ClosedComplex time signatures?
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Poll Question: Are we impressed?
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4 [5.71%]
16 [22.86%]
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RoyalJelly View Drop Down
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Points: 582 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 12:44
     Complex time signatures are a normal aspect of musical
language since at least Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring" (1912).
That they would come into jazz and rock was only a matter of
time. It's normal for any musical genre to seek new ways of
expanding its boundaries, but when it become a cliché, or is
only complexity for its own sake (let's face it, there's a lot in
prog) trying to impress, then better revert to 4/4 or a waltz.
Important is that the musician has something to say, and the
listener has a discerning taste.
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 12:47

Originally posted by Duncan Duncan wrote:

Lovely little poll here. For your next one, how about "what's the point in using counterpoint? It's not even hard to play!"

You can't divorce mechanical aspects of music from the music itself and then evaluate them. Prog might use complex time signatures, but they're only one of many deviations from generic norms. Are you going to denounce moog solos on the grounds that any halfwit can play them, and might just do so indulgently?

Oh, and if you really find playing three-part polyrhythms as lemon-squeazy as 4/4, gosh. Hats off to you, sir.

If i were doing that i would be an idiot, but i'm not.

I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by Trotsky Trotsky wrote:

Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

Originally posted by Trotsky Trotsky wrote:

Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together

I must say I once wrote a largely instrumental piece multi-time signature piece so difficult for the band to play that the lyrics were written in recognition of the chaos of the piece! ... we only got it right 1/3 of the time despite playing it on and off for 4 years!

Music that uses time signatures in a way that is too outrageous never sounds good. It is therefore unimpressive. Music is only impressive if it is good.

Now i'm into chaotic music, but music that is too OTT just gives me a head ache. And i wouldn't even describe 'musique concrete' as being OTT.

The chaos of the piece that you wrote (not to mention your inability to get it right more than a third of the time) must indicate to you how pointless it is to make over-complex music just for the sake of it. Complex musical techniques should be employed to enhance the music, not to make it unlistenable & unplayable, just for the sake of complexity.

There's a fine line between music & noise. When a band crosses that line, i think it is time for them to give up. Before they enter the realms of ultra-pretentiousness.

Besides, i've always believed that music isn't about showing off, to me it's about sharing.

Oh please ... actually it had very little to with showing off and much to do with challenging ourselves as musicians ... not that we didn't show off elsewhere! ... this started off as an interesting, somewhat angular riff and I wrote three different sections for it, initially thinking that they were all in the same time, and it was easy enough for me by myself ... plus as a keyboardist I happened to write it in a guitar/bass unfriendly key ... and for once we didn't adjust ... it was more a fun piece than anything else ... with an improvised solo for yours truly ...  and we never once played it for a show ...

All that does is prove my point, the fact that the piece of music was a disaster is down to the silly use of time signatures & other fool hardy methods.

Well done for not performing it live!! Alot of bands would have attempted it, & they are exactly the sort of pretentious bands that get so much stick around here.



Edited by Ipacial Section
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Points: 295 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 13:11
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

Well, why didn't you say so.



Edited by Catholic Flame
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Points: 257 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 14:50

I congratulate the author for placing a good theme to discuss about. More like this would make of the poll site a much more  interesting and entertaining place.

 About the time signatures, ...Well. As you well said, playing either is basically the same. However, I find the use of different time signatures very interesting. As in "cirkus" (Lizard) by King Crimson. The song is not particularily "nice" or enjoyable on the first 100 listens. But the way the instruments are mixed is so interesting and creative that you don´t care if this could be an otherwise, ugly song. And that´s because of the different  time signatures the instruments are playing. 

 Another good poll would be: To you, which is the most important factor in music?

                                              A) Creativity

                                              B) Diversity

                                              C) Complexity

                                              D) Style

                                              E) Originality

                                              F) Concept

                                              G) Other, mention it.

   I would have done it but I still have to define "Creativity", because originality and diversity could be considered part of it....

 

 

 
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 15:30
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

My (varied) musical experience has tought me that even amateur musicians don't have to stretch themselves to much in order to compose, arrange & perform music in complex time signatures: 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, etc....


So what is all the fuss about them? Time signatures are meaningless!! Some music in 9/8 is easy to play & at the same time some music in 4/4 is almost impossible to play.


And don't talk to me about shifting from 3/8 to 7/4 half way though a bar, or having a 4/4 guitar line playing against a 5/8 rhythm, with an 11/4 piano in the background!! Cause it's all lemon squeazy to me!!



I don't know about you, but I don't listen to music to be impressed . There is more scope to make music in strange time signatures, because there are more of them. If a song feels right in 11/8, then fine. If it sounds forced... well that's fine too, but not quite so fine
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 15:32
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

Originally posted by Duncan Duncan wrote:

Lovely little poll here. For your next one, how about "what's the point in using counterpoint? It's not even hard to play!"You can't divorce mechanical aspects of music from the music itself and <SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">then</SPAN> evaluate them. Prog might use complex time signatures, but they're only one of many deviations from generic norms. Are you going to denounce moog solos on the grounds that any halfwit can play them, and might just do so indulgently?Oh, and if you really find playing three-part polyrhythms as lemon-squeazy as 4/4, gosh. Hats off to you, sir.


If i were doing that i would be an idiot, but i'm not.


I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.


In technical metal, the essence of the style is playing in complex time signatures (and fast, of course). It doesn't impress me, but I just like that sound, and since it's brought about by strange time signatures, in that situation I like strange time signatures
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 15:38

Ipacial Section wrote:

Quote I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

I don't believe people worships bands for complex time signatures, I'm not sure most people here and in any Prog site can make specific distinctinons between time signatures (I played drums for years and studied classical Piano and yet I have some problems recognizing some timmings).

You're making what in Philosophy is called Reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd: Reaching a consequence starting with an absurd or simplistic argument), in other words you say:

  1. People here worship Prog
  2. Prog has sometimes complex time signatures

And you reach the consequence that people here worship complex time signatures = ABSURD

You can't judge love for Prog  only for one atribute, complex timming is important even not essential, but if you add complex timmings to virtuosism, you got something more and if you add drastic changes, intelligent lyrics, great melodies, perfect band work, artistic vocation,  classical/Jazz/Folk influences, and 100% more things, you may get Prog.

So this is a wrong conclusion because itstarts with an absurd premise.

Iván

 
            
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Points: 3254 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 15:42
Try out the mars volta which has songs in 29/16
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:07
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Ipacial Section wrote:

Quote I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

I don't believe people worships bands for complex time signatures, I'm not sure most people here and in any Prog site can make specific distinctinons between time signatures (I played drums for years and studied classical Piano and yet I have some problems recognizing some timmings).

You're making what in Philosophy is called Reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd: Reaching a consequence starting with an absurd or simplistic argument), in other words you say:

  1. People here worship Prog
  2. Prog has sometimes complex time signatures

And you reach the consequence that people here worship complex time signatures = ABSURD

You can't judge love for Prog  only for one atribute, complex timming is important even not essential, but if you add complex timmings to virtuosism, you got something more and if you add drastic changes, intelligent lyrics, great melodies, perfect band work, artistic vocation,  classical/Jazz/Folk influences, and 100% more things, you may get Prog.

So this is a wrong conclusion because itstarts with an absurd premise.

Iván

LOL

I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words.

I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum.

Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

LOL

I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words.

I don't try to look clever, I'm clever.....and modest

I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum.

LOL, youre making my point, people love Prog because of all it's caracteristics, not only because it's timming.

Jazz and Metal have very odd time signatures and neither all Prog or Jazz is Prog, you don't see many people who worships plain metal or plain Jazz.

Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something.

I always tell disagree with people's opinions, and sometimes I'm wrong and I have no problem with that.

People here worship Prog', complex timmings is one of the reasons why people love and worship Prog', but not the main, as simple as that. Please check all the What's Progressive threads and your doubts will be answered.

Iván



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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:25
Music would be extremely boring if all of it was in 4/4 - in fact most "pop" music is, and therefore is.

I like a good mix of different time sigs - it spices up the music. It's interesting when you start dividing the beats into different groups, like starting of with 16, then unexpectedly dropping one to make 15, then apply the coup de grace - the music suddenly switches to 5/16 as you just shift the emphasis. That's the kind of trick I like - let's see Mariah Carey do THAT!
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Points: 13 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:33
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

My (varied) musical experience has tought me that even amateur musicians don't have to stretch themselves to much in order to compose, arrange & perform music in complex time signatures: 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, etc....


So what is all the fuss about them? Time signatures are meaningless!! Some music in 9/8 is easy to play & at the same time some music in 4/4 is almost impossible to play.


And don't talk to me about shifting from 3/8 to 7/4 half way though a bar, or having a 4/4 guitar line playing against a 5/8 rhythm, with an 11/4 piano in the background!! Cause it's all lemon squeazy to me!!



I totally agree with this, except when the whole band is playing in different key signatures (as in the mnddle part of Starless, I believe), or when a single instrument is playing in polyrytmics, for example Bill Bruford's drumming, or some songs from Mclaughlin in which he plays the low notes in a certain time signatures and the melodie in another one.

(I'm not sure if I used the correct terms, because I got musically trained in spanish and terms are not alike)
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:49
Want some weird time sigs? Have a listen to this piece of mine. It's not prog, it's a MIDI piano & percussion piece, but it's got more time signatures than Dr. Who's autograph book!

http://www.herring.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/music/fearlessperc.m id


... And there's more where that came from...
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:57
How did that space character sneak in?

try again...

http://www.herring.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/music/fearlessperc.m id
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Damn - it did it again! the last part should be .mid, why is it adding a space?

What the hell, figure it out yourselves!
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Points: 166183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 17:09

I like strange, unoften used, bizarre time sigs. Does it increase the quality of the music? Probably not, but i still like them.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 20:25
Whatever. It's much more fun to play an instrument in a different time signature than to listen to a song in a different time signature. It's just that 4/4 is SO common, a good musician and songwriter may (perhaps even should) get tired of writing and playing in 4/4 all the time, and chooses to spice thing up a bit. Not to make a song better necessarily, but to make it a bit more challenging and interesting.
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 22:40
Originally posted by Trotsky Trotsky wrote:

Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together




ha hahah  love it, like when Gentle Giant does that with the two vocal lines  in Cogs in Cogs.
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Points: 1485 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 23:05
Hey, to the maker of this thread...

"I'm not impressed"? Who cares if your impressed. Certain people like
time signature changes. I like them. Why play in 4/4? Who made 4/4
standard? I like different songs that are played in alternate meters
because I like hearing songs and melodies that aren't the standard
signature. I also find it interesting to hear how certain bands incorporate
different time signatures (sometimes as in Genesis' case, it works
brilliantly, and in others, it sounds like a counting parade.) Time
signatures are not put in prog to impress (in most cases.) It is a part of
prog music being a complex and very skillful genre. I always talk with my
theory teacher about this topic, what would happen if the standard timing
was 6/6 or 7/7 and 4/7 or 4/6 was the "odd" tempo. Would 6/8 or 7/8
than sound like the standard? Would the standard radio song be in 7/8?
It's hard to say. 4/4 has been imprinted in our minds and that's what
makes it standard. Just like the Ionian mode (major scale, do re mi fa so
la ti do)

Listen to the classical composers. Let me guess, your not impressed?
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