My (varied) musical experience has tought me that even amateur musicians don't have to stretch themselves to much in order to compose, arrange & perform music in complex time signatures: 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, etc....

So what is all the fuss about them? Time signatures are meaningless!! Some music in 9/8 is easy to play & at the same time some music in 4/4 is almost impossible to play.

And don't talk to me about shifting from 3/8 to 7/4 half way though a bar, or having a 4/4 guitar line playing against a 5/8 rhythm, with an 11/4 piano in the background!! Cause it's all lemon squeazy to me!!

chopper wrote: Sometimes you're not particularly aware that a song is not in a standard 4/4 time sig. Sometimes it can be tricky. It may be easy peasy to you, but try drumming along with Genesis' "Apocalypse in 9/8" without counting - not so easy.

*Still not impressed*

krusty wrote: Indifferent. I think there's a lot more to a piece of music than whether it's 3/4, 4/4, 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, etc... If fact it's time sig should be one of the the last thing's to consider when listening to a piece. By that I mean fairly transparent.

That comment is typical of someone who 'listens' to music. And for what it is, it is fine.

But i'm talking from the point of view of a music composer & performer. In which case the time signature is a very improtant thing to consider.

chopper wrote: but try drumming along with Genesis' "Apocalypse in 9/8" without counting - not so easy.

I can do that!

It is the ideas expressed in the song that makes it excellent, not the time signature it is in.

Floyd made brilliant tracks in 4/4 and Genesis's Turn It Off Again is in 13/8 and awful.

Not impressed solely by the complex rythmic patterns

Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together

I must say I once wrote a largely instrumental piece multi-time signature piece so difficult for the band to play that the lyrics were written in recognition of the chaos of the piece! ... we only got it right 1/3 of the time despite playing it on and off for 4 years!

Trotsky wrote: Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together I must say I once wrote a largely instrumental piece multi-time signature piece so difficult for the band to play that the lyrics were written in recognition of the chaos of the piece! ... we only got it right 1/3 of the time despite playing it on and off for 4 years!

Music that uses time signatures in a way that is too outrageous never sounds good. It is therefore unimpressive. Music is only impressive if it is good.

Now i'm into chaotic music, but music that is too OTT just gives me a head ache. And i wouldn't even describe 'musique concrete' as being OTT.

The chaos of the piece that you wrote (not to mention your inability to get it right more than a third of the time) must indicate to you how pointless it is to make over-complex music just for the sake of it. Complex musical techniques should be employed to enhance the music, not to make it unlistenable & unplayable, just for the sake of complexity.

There's a fine line between music & noise. When a band crosses that line, i think it is time for them to give up. Before they enter the realms of ultra-pretentiousness.

Besides, i've always believed that music isn't about showing off, to me it's about sharing.

  The beatles used to play in 4/4 and they´re my favourite band ever, but i think that sometimes prog bands have to brake the line, everybody can play in 4/4, and sometimes its good to hear the drums in 9/8 or 13/8 followed by the guitar in 5/8  or stuff like that

I belive that time signitures are a pretty good metaphor for the spirit of prog. Now one would like to belive that artist write in odd time signitures not to be writing in  weird meters, but because that is the feel they want or that is how a melodic line they hear fits. One would hope to belive that this is true; that it is a thoughtful decision as opposed to just doing it to be different. Obviously there are artists that dont think like this, and really do it just to be doing it. This is more prominant with younger musicians and amateurs. A great example is DT's When Dream and Day Unite. In this debut album, a lot of it seems forced . But in their later albums, the time signitures seem more natrual and apropriat.

Now my point is this: The use of odd meters and odd meter changes allows freedom. If an artist is hearng the begining of the line in 5/4 but the end of it in9/8, then he can do that. It is this type of freedom that is the spirit of progressive rock. Prog bands hear their music out of a verse/chorus/verse form. so they dont use that form, they do what they hear. If they hear a 5 minute instrmental section, they do it.

Prog is about total freedom for the artist to do what he feels is rockin \m/

As long as they are used to embellish a piece of rock m,usic, and not purely to demonstrate how 'clever' the band is...

The best prog bands use them to add drama  - or whatever mood they seek to achieve - Yes, Genesis and the like are masters at this, as were VDGG..

Improvising would be more difficult in unusual time signatures. If you had practiced your licks in different keys (church modes?) then had to use different time sig. it would add another thick layer of complexity. Probably why most Rock and Jazz is done in 4/4.

But if you want to hear different time signatures done well invest in Dave Brubeck's Time Out. This is a Jazz swing group from the late 50's. Each song is a different time signature and they can swing in any of them.

Ipacial Section wrote: *Still not impressed*

What ever.

Ipacial Section wrote: Trotsky wrote: Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together I must say I once wrote a largely instrumental piece multi-time signature piece so difficult for the band to play that the lyrics were written in recognition of the chaos of the piece! ... we only got it right 1/3 of the time despite playing it on and off for 4 years! Music that uses time signatures in a way that is too outrageous never sounds good. It is therefore unimpressive. Music is only impressive if it is good. Now i'm into chaotic music, but music that is too OTT just gives me a head ache. And i wouldn't even describe 'musique concrete' as being OTT. The chaos of the piece that you wrote (not to mention your inability to get it right more than a third of the time) must indicate to you how pointless it is to make over-complex music just for the sake of it. Complex musical techniques should be employed to enhance the music, not to make it unlistenable & unplayable, just for the sake of complexity. There's a fine line between music & noise. When a band crosses that line, i think it is time for them to give up. Before they enter the realms of ultra-pretentiousness. Besides, i've always believed that music isn't about showing off, to me it's about sharing.

Oh please ... actually it had very little to with showing off and much to do with challenging ourselves as musicians ... not that we didn't show off elsewhere! ... this started off as an interesting, somewhat angular riff and I wrote three different sections for it, initially thinking that they were all in the same time, and it was easy enough for me by myself ... plus as a keyboardist I happened to write it in a guitar/bass unfriendly key ... and for once we didn't adjust ... it was more a fun piece than anything else ... with an improvised solo for yours truly ...  and we never once played it for a show ...

BTW, the last time you tried to share ... did the person reject you with a "still not impressed"

Duncan wrote: Lovely little poll here. For your next one, how about "what's the point in using counterpoint? It's not even hard to play!" You can't divorce mechanical aspects of music from the music itself and then evaluate them. Prog might use complex time signatures, but they're only one of many deviations from generic norms. Are you going to denounce moog solos on the grounds that any halfwit can play them, and might just do so indulgently? Oh, and if you really find playing three-part polyrhythms as lemon-squeazy as 4/4, gosh. Hats off to you, sir.

If i were doing that i would be an idiot, but i'm not.

I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

Trotsky wrote: Ipacial Section wrote: Trotsky wrote: Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together I must say I once wrote a largely instrumental piece multi-time signature piece so difficult for the band to play that the lyrics were written in recognition of the chaos of the piece! ... we only got it right 1/3 of the time despite playing it on and off for 4 years! Music that uses time signatures in a way that is too outrageous never sounds good. It is therefore unimpressive. Music is only impressive if it is good. Now i'm into chaotic music, but music that is too OTT just gives me a head ache. And i wouldn't even describe 'musique concrete' as being OTT. The chaos of the piece that you wrote (not to mention your inability to get it right more than a third of the time) must indicate to you how pointless it is to make over-complex music just for the sake of it. Complex musical techniques should be employed to enhance the music, not to make it unlistenable & unplayable, just for the sake of complexity. There's a fine line between music & noise. When a band crosses that line, i think it is time for them to give up. Before they enter the realms of ultra-pretentiousness. Besides, i've always believed that music isn't about showing off, to me it's about sharing. Oh please ... actually it had very little to with showing off and much to do with challenging ourselves as musicians ... not that we didn't show off elsewhere! ... this started off as an interesting, somewhat angular riff and I wrote three different sections for it, initially thinking that they were all in the same time, and it was easy enough for me by myself ... plus as a keyboardist I happened to write it in a guitar/bass unfriendly key ... and for once we didn't adjust ... it was more a fun piece than anything else ... with an improvised solo for yours truly ...  and we never once played it for a show ...

All that does is prove my point, the fact that the piece of music was a disaster is down to the silly use of time signatures & other fool hardy methods.

Well done for not performing it live!! Alot of bands would have attempted it, & they are exactly the sort of pretentious bands that get so much stick around here.

Ipacial Section wrote: I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

Well, why didn't you say so.

I congratulate the author for placing a good theme to discuss about. More like this would make of the poll site a much more  interesting and entertaining place.

 About the time signatures, ...Well. As you well said, playing either is basically the same. However, I find the use of different time signatures very interesting. As in "cirkus" (Lizard) by King Crimson. The song is not particularily "nice" or enjoyable on the first 100 listens. But the way the instruments are mixed is so interesting and creative that you don´t care if this could be an otherwise, ugly song. And that´s because of the different  time signatures the instruments are playing. 

 Another good poll would be: To you, which is the most important factor in music?

                                              A) Creativity

                                              B) Diversity

                                              C) Complexity

                                              D) Style

                                              E) Originality

                                              F) Concept

                                              G) Other, mention it.

   I would have done it but I still have to define "Creativity", because originality and diversity could be considered part of it....

Ipacial Section wrote:

I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

I don't believe people worships bands for complex time signatures, I'm not sure most people here and in any Prog site can make specific distinctinons between time signatures (I played drums for years and studied classical Piano and yet I have some problems recognizing some timmings).

You're making what in Philosophy is called Reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd: Reaching a consequence starting with an absurd or simplistic argument), in other words you say:

1. People here worship Prog
2. Prog has sometimes complex time signatures

And you reach the consequence that people here worship complex time signatures = ABSURD

You can't judge love for Prog  only for one atribute, complex timming is important even not essential, but if you add complex timmings to virtuosism, you got something more and if you add drastic changes, intelligent lyrics, great melodies, perfect band work, artistic vocation,  classical/Jazz/Folk influences, and 100% more things, you may get Prog.

So this is a wrong conclusion because itstarts with an absurd premise.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Ipacial Section wrote: I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum. I don't believe people worships bands for complex time signatures, I'm not sure most people here and in any Prog site can make specific distinctinons between time signatures (I played drums for years and studied classical Piano and yet I have some problems recognizing some timmings). You're making what in Philosophy is called Reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd: Reaching a consequence starting with an absurd or simplistic argument), in other words you say: People here worship Prog Prog has sometimes complex time signatures And you reach the consequence that people here worship complex time signatures = ABSURD You can't judge love for Prog  only for one atribute, complex timming is important even not essential, but if you add complex timmings to virtuosism, you got something more and if you add drastic changes, intelligent lyrics, great melodies, perfect band work, artistic vocation,  classical/Jazz/Folk influences, and 100% more things, you may get Prog. So this is a wrong conclusion because itstarts with an absurd premise. Iván

LOL

I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words.

I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum.

Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something.

Ipacial Section wrote: LOL I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words. I don't try to look clever, I'm clever.....and modest I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum. LOL, youre making my point, people love Prog because of all it's caracteristics, not only because it's timming. Jazz and Metal have very odd time signatures and neither all Prog or Jazz is Prog, you don't see many people who worships plain metal or plain Jazz. Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something. I always tell disagree with people's opinions, and sometimes I'm wrong and I have no problem with that. People here worship Prog', complex timmings is one of the reasons why people love and worship Prog', but not the main, as simple as that. Please check all the What's Progressive threads and your doubts will be answered.

Iván

I like strange, unoften used, bizarre time sigs. Does it increase the quality of the music? Probably not, but i still like them.

Ipacial Section wrote: *Still not impressed*

My lips are sealed....

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures. That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.

^ I take it you mean TMV.

IMO they are overdoing it a little ... 29/16, what's next? 53/32, 93/64 or 211/128?

427/256 perhaps

In the end, it just gets pointless. Cheap tricks to make music sound more complicated are one thing. But when music really does start to get over-complex, it becomes a matter of showing off rather than trying to make good music.

The music gets so over-complicated that it's no longer enjoyable. It's just a mess.

Every song has a natural time, length and key. To just play "Math Rock" or odd bar measures for the sake of it is just like playing a certain chord because the fingering is awkward.

Some songs to check out for perfect use of odd meters. (When I say "Odd", I mean anything other than 4/4 or 3/4)

"Seven Days" - Sting

"Mission Impossible" - Theme Tune

"Golden Brown" - The Stranglers

"Sky Blue" - Peter Gabriel

"My Wave" - Soundgarden

Even "Thriteen" By Frank Zappa has a natural pulse.

Its music not maths.

Im personally indifferent on the subject I enjoy to hear complex time signitures but sometimes its refeshing to hear something in bog-standard 4/4 time.

I play guitar and am in a prog rock band myself but when im just playing stuff for fun sometimes the stuff with a tricky time signiture can be easier to play than something in 4/4 time but this can also be the reverse. My band we dont go out of the way to use complex time signitures if we feel the song would sound better we put it in if not we will use 4/4 but then there is that part of your brain which is alittle mad and enjoys playing in a complex signiture. lol 

Autechre use complex time signatures aswell. They arn't Prog though. So no-one here will know them. They make glitch music, & some it sounds as though there is no time signature. Yet, unlike alot of Prog bands that use these methods, it actually works.

Check out their new album Untilted (2005)

You are just one of the many people in this thread who has missed the point. But thanks for joining in the discussion anyway. Just remember to read what i write properly next time.

I shall now quote myself....

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures. That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.

Sorry, let me finish the sentence: You are one of the few people who like them for that reason. Because there are only a few people that actually like them, full stop.

Totally indifferent - it doesn't impress me one iota.

It depends on the piece of music - if the piece demands it, then sig. away.

I've written pieces that would be impossible to squeeze into either a common or even a single time signature, because the music simply didn't flow that way.

And since I studied Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring", the word "complex" when applied to time signatures has become meaningless. That piece is the great-grand daddy of all complex time signatures and signature changes.