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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Real 5 star albums
    Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:28

Behold the definitions of the stars rating system.

Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music (100%)
Excellent addition to any prog music collection (0%)
Good, but non-essential (0%)
Collectors/fans only (0%)
Poor. Only for completionists (0%)

A 5 star rating is an essential album. It is my feeling all reviewers think that evert progressive album should be at least 4 stars and a 2 star album is a very bad poppish album. This way of rating doesn't match with the definitions above and makes the whole rating and reviewing system of lower quality.

Judging the definitions above, described to rate progressive albums, what would be the real 5 stars albums, in other words the albums which are essential to your progerssive music collection?
Please name no more then 5 albums.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:36
close to the edge
selling england by the pound
brain salad surgery

the only essential albums
Good Morning Carpark Fans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:43
hmm, I must say I have a problem with that definition. surely the number of stars should stand for "quality" of an album. but that has nothing whatever to do with "essentiality" of an album. two totally different concepts. an album may be very excellent, perhaps even the very best album of all prog, but it may at the same time be so obscure it can hardly be called "essential" for any prog collection. and my personal opinion is the star rating is about "quality" of an album and not "essentiality". if it gets down to "essentiality" then the usual suspects have been named already; they are those albums listed at the top of the database. but this is not what I rate in an album. perhaps there should be two different ratings in the system: one for essentiality, the other for quality


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:45

Yes, it is difficult to come up with 5 albums that are essential.

I agree on Close to the Edge of Yes.

I have some doubts if Selling England by the Pound is an essential masterpiece. It could well be transferred for Foxtrot in my opinion, which is also great and perhaps since it contains the 20 + minutes song Supper's Ready more essential.

Personally I think the album SFAM from Dream Theater is essential, being a masterpiece in the prog metall. Bythe way the only Dream Theater album which I would find essential. The latest Octavarium would be good, but no essential = 3 stars.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:50
hmm...

Genesis - SEBTP
Genesis - Seconds Out
Amon Düül II - Wolf City

These are essential in my collection, but essential for everyone is IMO; CTTE and The Lamb.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:51

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

hmm, I must say I have a problem with that definition. surely the number of stars should stand for "quality" of an album. but that has nothing whatever to do with "essentiality" of an album. two totally different concepts. an album may be very excellent, perhaps even the very best album of all prog, but it may at the same time be so obscure it can hardly be called "essential" for any prog collection. and my personal opinion is the star rating is about "quality" of an album and not "essentiality". if it gets down to "essentiality" then the usual suspects have been named already; they are those albums listed at the top of the database. but this is not what I rate in an album. perhaps there should be two different ratings in the system: one for essentiality, the other for quality

True what you are saying.

The definitions of essentiality could well be compared to having the latest dictionary. It is essential, but to say you really like buying it.
Or having a book like Catcher in the Rye in your closet. You may have never read it, but it is considered to be an essential masterpiece in English Literature.

To state that the first 5 of the top 100 would be the essential masterpieces would mean two albums of Genesis. Nothing of Prog metall or neo prog and nothing later than the early 70's.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:54
Its a good point that "essential" does not necessarily equate with overall quality. If you were to list "essential" albums then there might be some that are flawed; vice-versa, some albums that you feel are top-notch musically are not "essential" . For instance I'm a huge fan of Bruford's "Feels Good To Me", I think musically its worth 5 stars,  but I wouldn't claim its an essential prog album. Whereas I would say "Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" was essential as prog because of the impact it had, it was so ambitious, Gabriel's last album.... yet it is (IMHO) flawed. There are a few albums that meet both criteria and at risk of starting up Genesis /Yes divisions again I would say CTTE is one of them...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:58

you can hardly cover all styles of prog with five albums only, so if you choose the top essential five some genrés will always stay outside. also you will find some genrés aremoreliked than the others; probably most proggers love the symphonic genré; for RIO or Canterbury or prog-metal you will probably find less fans. you could of course list the top five for each category



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:03

Have a look atthe subgenre lists:

  • Art Rock
  • Canterbury Scene
  • Experimental/Post-Rock
  • Indo-Prog Rock
  • Italian Symphonic Prog
  • Jazz Rock/Fusion
  • Kraut Rock
  • Neo Progressive
  • Prog Folk
  • Progressive Electronic
  • Progressive Metal
  • Psychedelic/Space Rock
  • RIO/Avant-Prog
  • Symphonic Prog
  • Zeuhl
  • Most of the essential albums SHOULD be listed there. If they're not, it's up to you experts out there to review those gems of prog rock ...

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:07

    I would personally only give 5 stars to a very selective number of albums. Among these would be the usual suspects (CTTE, SEBTP etc) and probably to those which are recognised classics but not my favourites (DSOTM, Tubular Bells, ITCOTKC). This would be to recognise the importance in the history of prog.

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:15
    I myself don't care about historic importance. if it came down to that, "Psychedelic Underground" by the German Amon Düül (who are not even in the archives, by the way; a real oversight) would deserve five stars, since it is the very first krautrock album ever and started the genré. but given the quality of the music it is maximum a two

    Edited by BaldJean


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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:20

    The problem is that most people use 5 stars far more often than they should. This problem cannot be undone, so it's best to adapt and also use 5 star ratings more often. I'm not saying that 50% of your albums should be rated 5 stars - but definitely not just 5 albums. If you adhere to the letters of the descriptions of the ratings too closely, you are effectively punishing many albums that you rate 4 stars.

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:21
    Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

    I myself don't care about historic importance. if it came down to that, "Psychedelic Underground" by the German Amon Düül (who are not even in the archives, by the way; a real oversight) would deserve five stars, since it is the very first krautrock album ever and started the genré. but given the quality of the music it is maximum a two


    I'm not big into them myself, but I am amazed to hear that Amon Duul are not listed...
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:23

    well, there are three bands named Amon Düül: Amon Düül (German), Amon Düül (British) and Amon Düül 2 (German). of them only Amon Düül 2 are in the archives



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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:24
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Have a look atthe subgenre lists:

  • Art Rock
  • Canterbury Scene
  • Experimental/Post-Rock
  • Indo-Prog Rock
  • Italian Symphonic Prog
  • Jazz Rock/Fusion
  • Kraut Rock
  • Neo Progressive
  • Prog Folk
  • Progressive Electronic
  • Progressive Metal
  • Psychedelic/Space Rock
  • RIO/Avant-Prog
  • Symphonic Prog
  • Zeuhl

    Most of the essential albums SHOULD be listed there. If they're not, it's up to you experts out there to review those gems of prog rock ...

  • Hmmm, I never noticed these lists. Thanks. Apparently progarchives.com has still some secrets for me.

    But there are a lot of albums listed, so I cannot go with you that all of these should be considered essential.

    Would't you agree that even your reviews are to hight considering the definitions and are mostly 4 tot 5 stars if you consider them a progworthy album? How would you overrate your reviews if you would stay to the definitions?

    Since there are a lot of Dream Theaters fans on this forum, I'll take them as an example: An album like Train of Thought is a collector's item/ for fan's only = 2 stars. (sorry folks)

     

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:34

    since I don't understand the ratings to be a contest of "bring albums I rate to the very top" I will give them exactly the ratings I think they deserve. I prefer to rate and review albums though that are little known and deserve some attention; I don't see the point in the 218456th review of "Close to the Edge". so the albums I review will usually get four or five stars; but this is not because I tend to rate albums too highly, it is because I make a preselection which album to review. why should I go and bring attention to a rare album that is not worth listening to?



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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:40
    Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

    since I don't understand the ratings to be a contest of "bring albums I rate to the very top" I will give them exactly the ratings I think they deserve. I prefer to rate and review albums though that are little known and deserve some attention; I don't see the point in the 218456th review of "Close to the Edge". so the albums I review will usually get four or five stars; but this is not because I tend to rate albums too highly, it is because I make a preselection which album to review. why should I go and bring attention to a rare album that is not worth listening to?

    When you browse the Krautrock top 100 list, you'll notice that there are many albums with one or two 5 star ratings. It might be useful to write a few negative reviews for albums which you think are overrated. CAN - Landed for example is rated 4 stars (average), but from what I heard, I would only rate it 2 to 3 stars.

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:46

    Close to the Edge

    Thick as A Brick

    Images and Words

    BE

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 10:59
    Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

    Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

    since I don't understand the ratings to be a contest of "bring albums I rate to the very top" I will give them exactly the ratings I think they deserve. I prefer to rate and review albums though that are little known and deserve some attention; I don't see the point in the 218456th review of "Close to the Edge". so the albums I review will usually get four or five stars; but this is not because I tend to rate albums too highly, it is because I make a preselection which album to review. why should I go and bring attention to a rare album that is not worth listening to?

    When you browse the Krautrock top 100 list, you'll notice that there are many albums with one or two 5 star ratings. It might be useful to write a few negative reviews for albums which you think are overrated. CAN - Landed for example is rated 4 stars (average), but from what I heard, I would only rate it 2 to 3 stars.

    compared to the other albums of Can "Landed" is a 3 only; I agree



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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2005 at 11:13
    Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

    well, there are three bands named Amon Düül: Amon Düül (German), Amon Düül (British) and Amon Düül 2 (German). of them only Amon Düül 2 are in the archives



    Phew! That would explain it!
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