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Posted: April 25 2005 at 13:53

james : i beleive yu do make compellign points and i thought i had addressed some of them ....however......one:if all life on this planet as it is one day started being born gay, life would cease to exist...you cannot argue that...it is a FACT
two:many cases have been shown of a homosexual admitting it was not genetic, but environmental
three: because it is POSSIBLE for it to be environmental(whether possibel genetic or not) the possibility exists that these people can weild an influence over my child (and in my experience they make it a sport to do so)
four: if you and your spouse died in a plane crash ...would yu feel comfortable knowing your children were to be raised by a homosexual?(im assuming yu have a wife and child, sry if yu dont , or if you are gay)

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:01

hopelevre wrote:

two:many cases have been shown of a homosexual admitting it was not genetic, but environmental

What! So because he's gay he's automatically an expert on his genetics? I'm straight, but I have no idea why, it's just the way I am. I couldn't choose to be gay, and if I were gay I'm pretty sure I couldn't choose to be straight either. I doubt it'll ever be proven entirely genetic or entirely environmental, since I believe (as with almost everything else) it's a mixture of the two. And if it isn't so what? The world would be a happier place if people accepted all kinds of love instead of considering it some kind of (in)curable disease!

Edited by goose

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:04

goose- how about a young boy who was sexually molested by a catholic priest and is now a homosexual? there are many instances of this...you are saying all these boys were going to be gay anywway? that is ludicrous

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:07

No, otherwise I'd have said it was purely genetic.

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:11

hopelevre wrote:

goose- how about a young boy who was sexually molested by a catholic priest and is now a homosexual? there are many instances of this...you are saying all these boys were going to be gay anywway? that is ludicrous

Well, I think those boys seduced the priests, and where gay before that. It's common knowledge those gay-boys shake their butt quite seductively to every man.

I feel pity for those innocent priests that where so obviously framed by the devil.

I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:12

did you not notice that i chose to say it was POSSIBLE to be environmental and i even left it open that it could be POSSIBLY genetic as well..... whats your problem ...jsut need someone to attack for an arbitrary reason? i mean i beieve it is probably some of both too just like the alcoholism, here's the thing : just because you are more vulnerable to have something happen doesnt mean it is going to happen....you still have decisions to make in your life...many predetermined alcoholics knew it and chose to not pick up the bottle

Edited by hopelevre

Metropolis View Drop Down

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:13

James Lee wrote:

(and who formulate various 'scientific' claims to back up their predjudice).

Scientific claims do not back up prejudice, and in fact the studies that have shown there to be something of a genetic component (I am not for a minute suggesting that this is the only, or even the major component, environment and upbringing have an extremely important and complex part to play) should in fact remove prejudice as it shows that being prejudiced against gays is no different to being prejudiced against blacks and that homophobes should be held in the same esteem as racists.

Also why does everyone think that when someone suggests that a gene has a part to play in something that that someone is instantly dismissing all environmental factors, they are not, and all geneticists understand the imprtance environment has to play.

We Lost the Skyline............

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:19

again this is the thing you all are missing: just because an alcoholic has the gene doesnt make him an alcoholic, in the same way, jsut because a gene exixts that may be found more in homos than straits doesnt mean that without having the experiences they had as a human being they still would have been gay....and the whole studies show thing is irrelevant because as is very obvious their is no conclusive nature to any of these studies, not to mention the whole "if its genetic how the hell are gays able to proliferate it so quickly"
issue

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:28

I completely agree with you on the issue of experiences shaping people, as I was very sure to point out I am not saying that it is completely genetic, but when they do a large study and find that 75% of one group carry one version of a gene and 75% of another carry another version of a gene, that is statistically significant.

On the subject of how the gene survived, I explained that in a previous post. The gene as well as inferring a predisposition to homosexuality to male offspring may have also inferred some form of protecion to the mother, and therefore the gene survived despite the fact that male offspring would not have children of their own because female offspring would be more likely to survive to child-bearing age.

We Lost the Skyline............

James Lee

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:45

Metropolis wrote:

James Lee wrote:

(and who formulate various 'scientific' claims to back up their predjudice).

That's why I put '"scientific' in quotes- there's a vast difference between fact and interpretation. It seem to me that unfortunately people usually have an opinion first and then try to fit the available scientific knowledge to support that opinion (even some real scientists, who should know better). The genetic debate about homosexuality has that same shady undertone that characterizes the science behind the idea that black people are genetically better at sports.

hopelevre: do you believe that homosexuality is so compelling that the entire human race will eventually choose it over procreation?

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 14:59

Whilst whether someone is gay or straight is a non-issue to me.
I either like them or I dont.
However,the way I see it is this:buggery would never be seen as acceptable sexual practice by me.If there were two holes up there,one for evacuating waste and another for pleasure,so be it.But there aint.Of course,I know that heterosexual couples also practise it,but that doesnt make it any less perverted.

Believe me-I am no prude or homophobe (although to some my previous statement might mark me out as one.)But I do find it distasteful.

But it isnt doing me any harm and as long as it is performed by consenting adults I certainly do not see it as a corrupting influence-so,so what?

I am not defined by my heterosexuality and neither should gays be defined by their sexuality,but that's another issue.I'm not really for tax breaks based on in which hole one places one's manhood.

But as far as the fun bit:

Whatever turns you on. Big smile Just dont expect me to join in. Wink

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 15:04

How can you honestly believe sexual orientation is a choice? Your sexual orientation is based on your feelings and desires, and those feelings cannot be chosen. Ask any gay person if he or she has made a choice. Ask any straight person if he or she could choose not to love people of the opposite sex. The majority will tell you that there ain't no choice. And it doesn't matter wheter there is a "gay gene", because even if there was none it wouldn't make it less of a choice.

You cannot change a person's feelings. Pretending to be something you're not in a desperate attempt to be "normal" will probably lead to depression. I know there are those who claim to have been "converted," but I think they where really bisexual or are just fooling themselves.

You'll just have to accept that people are gay and that it's not their choice, that they cannot be converted and that they're here to stay. It's not against "nature" because they're gay by nature. It's God's will.

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 15:23

Metropolis:

You keep mentioning this "75%/75%" study, yet you have provided no support. However, even if such a study does exist - and even given the study cited by threefates - this only makes two studies that show a "possibility" of a genetic predisposition to homosexuality in a "portion" of the population. However, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of studies that lead to the opposite conclusion; jrKASperov has already offered three, and I will be happy to provide at least a dozen later tonight when I get the chance to pull them up.

This is called the "scientific method." (And this, coming from a minister! ) If a study is not "reproducible," then it ultimately fails. And it is clear that the one or two "gay gene" studies did not stand either the test of time, peer review or "reproducibility."

As an aside, there are also hundreds of studies in psychology that show that homosexuality is, if not solely, than overwhelmingly the product of "learned behavior" (infant and/or early childhood traumas, circumstances, experiences, environments, etc.) - even if that behavior is "learned" at such an early age that it is not "cognizant" behavior but rather "subconscious" behavior. And, as an aside to threefates, many of these studies have shown that even "accepting" parents who believe that no such conditions existed for their child to "learn" that behavior are ultimately in denial about their own role in it.

Peace.

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 15:23

As a young man I fancied girls my age, through
various interactions I was left with tapes and feelings
of those encounters in my mind. Several men I have
known have related to me instances in their early
lives that recorded similar tapes in their minds.
These were the seeds planted to work on them to
consider themselves gay.

I believe that after the sexual act one has given way
to a portion of control by their choices, naive or not to
this action. Unacceptance by the other gender, open
options by society, its all in the mind and you decide.

Do gays want to be Catholic priests, because they
like boys? I think the church asks to much of these
men sent away in their prime years with no other
outlet. Sure they cross lines that permeats
continued
behavior, but it is done already by the impossible
guidelines. Which shows how far the church is from
having a clue! And has created this god that no one
can relate to!

Edited by DallasBryan

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 15:31

I'm just citing from memory, the lit is a couple of hundred of miles away at my parents house, i suppose ill be able to cite it properly eventually.

And as i keep saying, I am not opposed to the "nurture" aspects, I firmly believe that this part of human behaviour, as all human behaviour, is the result of a mix of nature and nurture, and that these two standpoints are not irreconcilable.

We Lost the Skyline............

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Posted: April 25 2005 at 15:52

drbr wrote:

How can you honestly believe sexual orientation is a choice? Your sexual orientation is based on your feelings and desires, and those feelings cannot be chosen. Ask any gay person if he or she has made a choice. Ask any straight person if he or she could choose not to love people of the opposite sex. The majority will tell you that there ain't no choice. And it doesn't matter wheter there is a "gay gene", because even if there was none it wouldn't make it less of a choice.

You cannot change a person's feelings. Pretending to be something you're not in a desperate attempt to be "normal" will probably lead to depression. I know there are those who claim to have been "converted," but I think they where really bisexual or are just fooling themselves.

You'll just have to accept that people are gay and that it's not their choice, that they cannot be converted and that they're here to stay. It's not against "nature" because they're gay by nature. It's God's will.

I agree totally...