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Radioactive Toy
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Joined: March 06 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 953
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:14 |
maani wrote:
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a "gay gene," any more than there is a "serial killer" gene or a "wife abuser" gene or an "alcoholic" gene or a "drug abuser" gene, etc. (I am not comparing being gay to serial killing, wife abusing, etc., simply making a point.) Thus, homosexuality is learned behavior. It is not "innate": no one is "born gay." And even if the circumstances that cause one to become gay occur in very early childhood - and are thus deeply ingrained - it remains "learned," and can therefore be "unlearned," no matter how difficult or painful that may be.
That is why Christians consider homosexuality a "sin"; because it is a moral failure, even if it is perhaps the earliest learned, most deeply ingrained one, and thus the hardest to undo. And just as Jesus told the adulteress "Go, and sin no more," God does not expect you to "remain in sin." |
Who has decided that feelings are something tought? Your feelings with someones loss for example, are something you can't teach to someone.. Your love for someone is just the same.. If that love is someone of your own sex then it's tought and a sin? There is another thing I have to mention: you're comparing this: "serial killer", "wife abuser", "alcoholic", "drug abuser" etc. with being homosexual.. Isn't it a big difference that an serial killer, wife abuser, alcoholic, drug abuser etc does something BAD to themselfs AND to others. They know that what they're doing is WRONG. Gay people are just loving someone! And if you're trying to say that gay people are bad because they're do something wrong to their parents etc. it's then again ACCEPTANCE!
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gdub411
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Points: 3484
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:29 |
maani wrote:
Gdub:
I think you err in choosing your word - homophobes - which literally means "fear of homosexuals." Clearly, few people, if any, are "fearful" of homosexuals, unless the word is broadened to include "fear" of their influence in society. Note that I am making no moral judgment here; I am simply pointing out that the word "homophobe" is a misnomer, and is often used by the gay community as an "activist" word which actually serves to further "divide" them from "the mainstream."
Christians believe in a particular moral doctrine, yes. But even this is misunderstood - and often deliberately misinterpreted - by the gay community. Let me make two comments on this regard, the first of which requires a brief primer.
Christians believe that each of us has a "soul," which is eternal. That soul "inhabits" our mortal, temporal bodies for approximately 90 years, after which it is released to be judged by God, and lives "in eternity" in either "heaven" or "hell." Note that the correct meaning of "hell" is not what most people think - fire, damnation, etc. (which is reserved for very few) - but "eternal separation from God." Thus, we need to consider two "spheres" here: the temporal/mortal, and the spiritual/eternal.
God loves every single human being, regardless of their moral or other failings. And Jesus preached that unconditional love, forgiveness, compassion, etc. However, in the "Christian construct," there are two specific expectations put on us. First, that we admit that we are "sinners" (that we fail morally and otherwise), and "repent" for those "sins" (moral and other failings) by asking forgiveness through Christ's sacrifice. Second, that we make at least some effort to live as Christ did - to be "Christ-like" - by (i) practicing the main precepts of Christ's ministry (love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, truth), and (ii) at least attempting to avoid "sin," especially conscious, deliberate sin.
However, the unconditional love of God and Christ is only applicable to our temporal lives, in as much as there is no "judgment" during our temporal lives. But there will be a "judgment" for each person as our souls leave the temporal world for the eternal one, and that judgment will be based on our faith (in Christ) and our "works."
I have previously used the example of the adulteress who was about to be stoned when Jesus came along and told her accusers "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." And I pointed out that it did not end there. Jesus then asks her "Woman, where are thy accusers?" She replies, "They are gone." And Jesus says, "Neither do I accuse you. Now go, and sin no more."
"Sin no more." Note that Jesus did not let her off the hook: He forgave her for the sin that brought her to that moment, but made it clear that He did not expect her to remain in sin, because from that point on, her sin would be conscious and deliberate, and not just a "moral failing."
Which brings me to my second point.
There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a "gay gene," any more than there is a "serial killer" gene or a "wife abuser" gene or an "alcoholic" gene or a "drug abuser" gene, etc. (I am not comparing being gay to serial killing, wife abusing, etc., simply making a point.) Thus, homosexuality is learned behavior. It is not "innate": no one is "born gay." And even if the circumstances that cause one to become gay occur in very early childhood - and are thus deeply ingrained - it remains "learned," and can therefore be "unlearned," no matter how difficult or painful that may be.
That is why Christians consider homosexuality a "sin"; because it is a moral failure, even if it is perhaps the earliest learned, most deeply ingrained one, and thus the hardest to undo. And just as Jesus told the adulteress "Go, and sin no more," God does not expect you to "remain in sin."
Thus, there is no conflict or hypocrisy in Christians who love and accept gays, and yet believe that gays will be "eternally separated from God" if they "remain in sin" and make no effort to change. It comes from the understanding of the difference between the temporal world - in which Christians are expected to live "Christ-like" lives, including love, forgiveness, compassion, etc. for all people, regardless of their moral and other failings - and the spiritual/eternal world that comes after.
I realize this is little "comfort" to you, or to other gay members here. However, as noted, I am simply explaining "how it works" within the "Christian construct." You are, of course, free to reject that construct, or find it exclusivist, narrow-minded, etc. I simply wanted to explain how it is that Christians - even "good" (non-judgmental, non-condemning) Christians - can, on the one hand, truly love and accept gay people - without a hint of "homophobia" - yet on the other hand believe that, unless gay people make some effort to change, they will be eternally separated from God on "judgment day."
Peace.
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 ....Finally I got your point of view Maani. For a long time I have noticed you have dodged this issue. The point of view you expressed is exactly what I expected. I consider myself a christian in spite of my sins. I really do not believe what I wrote about christians at the top of this thread...not all anyway. The goal of this thread has been achieved.
Peace.
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:29 |
maani i am no christian as i dont beleive christ was our savior...i look at it as he was a metaphor for all men and we are each our own saviors by choosing to live the christ-like life...but everything you said is what i beleive...congrats on handling a topic as loaded as this one with such aplomb...thanks for enlightening the members of this site to my and what i believe may be many others' views on the matter, in the words we may not have been able to find
Edited by hopelevre
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:32 |
it is impossible to argue with those that refuse the truth...the negative thing is the effects teh proliferation of this subculture will have on humanity
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Radioactive Toy
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Points: 953
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:41 |
hopelevre wrote:
it is impossible to argue with those that refuse the truth...the negative thing is the effects teh proliferation of this subculture will have on humanity |
are you talking to yourself? to maani? wo knows wich is right?
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James Lee
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Points: 3525
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:41 |
maani- just wondering about a few of your points. You state that homobobia is a misnomer because people aren't actually afraid of homosexuals...perhaps 'threatened' would be a better way to put it, and I'm pretty confident that feeling is accurate for many, many people. In most cases, people are indeed afraid of something they don't understand (whether it's gays, jews, blacks, Harley riders, snakes, spiders, or death).
And as far as the 'genetic vs. learned' debate goes, it's most often a preamble to dismiss homosexuality on the grounds that it is somehow unnatural (despite the evidence that homosexuality occurs regularly in the animal world and has been with mankind since the beginning). Not every society, historically or geographically, views variations in sexuality as morally incorrect...western puritanism has given the topic undue prominence in the moral realm (i.e., sex is fundamentally wrong, but the variations are even more wrong ).
Additionally, there is (to the best of our scientific knowledge) an alcoholic gene...most likely a combination of genetic factors, especially the DRD2 dopamine receptor variant, which greatly increases the likelihood of developing alcoholism according to several studies. It doesn't negate freewill, but it makes it more likely to put one at risk of becoming a serious drunk (as having the genetic predisposition for being very tall is more likely to make one become a better basketball player). 
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Cluster One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2005
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Points: 780
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 12:58 |
I disagree wholeheartedly.
I myself am a (typically seldom-practicing) Roman Catholic from
Montreal, a very liberal city who accepts people no matter their:
politics, languages, sexual orientation or colour.
But, there definitely ARE a lot of evangelical Chrisitans who enjoy bashing GLBT people.  I try to ignore or take the piss from them whenever I can
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Marmalade...I like marmalade.
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drbr
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Joined: February 06 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 13:02 |
Fortunaltely, civilized society is accepting homosexuality and gay
rights and there's nothing narrow minded "Christians" can do about it.
Sure, you can hide behind "God" and condemn people to hell for all
eternity, but we who know God know there's nothing wrong with our gay
love. Love is a gift from God and humans can not take it away from us.
I feel sad for you who have not yet understood and continue to hurt
people. Mat 7:1
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Radioactive Toy
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Joined: March 06 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 953
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 13:16 |
drbr wrote:
Fortunaltely, civilized society is accepting homosexuality and gay rights and there's nothing narrow minded "Christians" can do about it. Sure, you can hide behind "God" and condemn people to hell for all eternity, but we who know God know there's nothing wrong with our gay love. Love is a gift from God and humans can not take it away from us. I feel sad for you who have not yet understood and continue to hurt people. Mat 7:1
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Reed Lover
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 13:39 |
Ok,Gdub.You are not going to Hell, but then again you are not going to Heaven.
An eternity in Limbo after a lifetime akimbo.
Let's face it none of us is going anywhere except back to where we came from.The dust of stars,that's all we are.Deal with it.
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
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Points: 8548
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 13:43 |
Dust of stars ???
Hey my whistle is dry , hand me a beer
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Syzygy
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Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 7003
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:06 |
goose wrote:
I think the British church is several shades more liberal? I couldn't be sure, though. |
In some Church of England circles homosexuality is compulsory, or so I've heard 
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Velvetclown
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:14 |
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threefates
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Points: 4215
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:35 |
gdub411 wrote:
Rob The Good wrote:
ALL Christians? That's a HUGE generalisation!  |
You think? Please give examples then.
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Example: Me 
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THIS IS ELP
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Velvetclown
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:37 |
Threefates : You´re not a Christian ...you´re the Lady Of The Lake
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Reed Lover
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:41 |
Velvetclown wrote:
Threefates : You´re not a Christian ...you´re the Lady Of The Lake  |
You´re not a Christian ...you enjoy sex,remember!
Bad girl,bad,bad,girl!
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Velvetclown
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:44 |
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Velvetclown
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:51 |
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threefates
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Points: 4215
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:53 |
Hey I can read my Bible and have sex at the same time... I'm extremely flexible...
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THIS IS ELP
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Velvetclown
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 15:54 |
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