Steve Howe (post-CTTE) is rubbish

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it. Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice.

I think what had happened was an overblow of egos, mainly starting off at Tales.  Think about it: your'e a guitarist in one of the most successful bands of the time period.  You've just come off a great tour for an album that's been accepted well both criticaly and sales- wise (CTTE).  Who's ego wouldn't be huge after a thing like that?

Second, after Tales, Which Howe and Anderson wrote with minimal input from the band, I think the feeling they had on Tales, which was Anderson, Howe and Company, was still there when they went into record Relayer.  As attitudes tend to linger, so do playing styles (IMO) and Howe may have felt Compelled to up the ante on this album (due to the poor reception Tales had) or maybe he wanted to show that he was up there in skill with some of the heavy hitters of Rock music at the time (Page for example).

So, in the end, it all comes down to opinion, but I still think that Howe on Relayer, while unpleasant at times, helped to shape relayer into the wonderful album it is.

Snow Dog wrote: I think your talking absolute balls wrath.........and Howe didnt even write Parallels it was Squire ....so there

A view crudely exchanged!! You'll give forums a bad name Snow Dog if you just keep blindly disagreeing.  I think YOU'RE talking balls (and so on...)

And you're right about Parallels of course - I confidently made the comment based on a solitary (and clearly jaded) memory of reading the back of the record sleeve 10 years ago .  I do sincerely apologise, though you will agree that the statement was not central to my hypothesis...

Howe still ruins it.  

Howe is a genius, one of my all-time favourites. It was Relayer (my first Yes album I heard) that I knew this guy knew how to play like a beast. I was blown away by Sound Chaser.

John Gargo wrote: bluetailfly wrote: "Well thought out and literately argued"??? It was a complete rant from start to finish. This is not a model of a considered argument, but more like a Rush Limbaugh diatribe. Hey, I don't agree with him at all, but at least he was comprehensive with his arguments.  It's obvious that he's passionate about the subject, and its refreshing to read something on this forum besides "Queen sucks, ELP sucks, Kansas sucks" etc. etc. I thought he stated his case and used some good examples to back it up.  Again, I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM, but he did give some reasons as to why he feels the way he does.

Thanks John, I actually DO feel quite strongly about this, especially as I find my respect for these Yes albums that I once totally admired, increasingly ebbing into the ether.  

Bluetailfly, you cant expect people to come on to the forum and set down 10,000-word Aristotelian dialectic theses about trivial subjects such as Steve Howe's performances on post-CTTE albums.  Of course there are going to be holes in an argument claiming that everything he conjured subsequently, was mediocre.  The objective was simply to encourage a bit of conversation in the spirit of the forum, without resorting to the types of exchanges that we are having now. 

From your posts, I can garner that you are fan of Howe's entire career, and you made some good points in support of some of his works.  I am now a bit more interested and will investigate the stuff.  Thats how it works.  I'm not sitting here sticking pins into Steve Howe 1973 dolls. I've got Phil Collins 1976 dolls for that...  

 

I know that you mean...and yet I can´t agree. I find that "The Ancient" from the "Tales..." album has some of Howes best acoustic work. And everything on "Relayer", specialy "Sound Chaser" is excellent. But, yes, in a way "Fragil", "Close to the Edge" and specially "The Yes Album" has got different riffs and solos...

I enjoy the lack of polish.  I heard DiMeola years ago and didn't like his machine-like precision then and I'm not crazy about Petrucci's machine-like uzi staccato runs now (though he is very good at it).  My wife never got into Yes, has musical tastes that run in a very different direction - but she saw them live with me a few years ago and not only loved them in that context but thought Howe came across like the Mad Scientist of guitar.  How perfect.  She got it right away!  Give me a mad scientist any day over a polished technician.  That is a mad scientist at work on The Gates of Delirium (and in the opening to CTTE), not someone showing off.  Specifically during (what I call) the battle sequence.  Who would you rather hear generating the drama during that piece?  Battle rages, swords flash, metal clashes, what have you - the inner struggle burns...  Who better to express that than Howe tearing it up on his fret board?  I might even say, who else could?!  Yeah, lots of notes.  Even on the relatively quiet To Be Over, lots of notes.  And I love each one of them.  That DaVinci, I like his work but he uses too many dogone brush strokes!


Edited by Litl

*considers the ability to write original and unique melodies much more impressive than technical virtuosity*

That's why I consider Justin Hayward to be more impressive in my mind than many other prog guitarists who are far more skilled. Brian Jones, Saul Hudson (better known as Slash), and (of course) Jimi Hendrix are other examples.

alan_pfeifer wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it. Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice. I think what had happened was an overblow of egos, mainly starting off at Tales.  Think about it: your'e a guitarist in one of the most successful bands of the time period.  You've just come off a great tour for an album that's been accepted well both criticaly and sales- wise (CTTE).  Who's ego wouldn't be huge after a thing like that? Second, after Tales, Which Howe and Anderson wrote with minimal input from the band, I think the feeling they had on Tales, which was Anderson, Howe and Company, was still there when they went into record Relayer.  As attitudes tend to linger, so do playing styles (IMO) and Howe may have felt Compelled to up the ante on this album (due to the poor reception Tales had) or maybe he wanted to show that he was up there in skill with some of the heavy hitters of Rock music at the time (Page for example). So, in the end, it all comes down to opinion, but I still think that Howe on Relayer, while unpleasant at times, helped to shape relayer into the wonderful album it is.

Thats an interesting point about Tales, and I didn't know that.  I'd always thought it was their collective magnificent octopus, and that each member was widely regarded as having reached their creative and performing peaks during the making of it.  Now, when I think about it, Howe's influence is plainly apparent, and perhaps that is the point where it snaps for me. 

I also didn't know that Tales was 'poorly received', as you put it.  Was this by Yes fans, critics, or by the public in general?  After the gargantuan success of previous albums I imagine this could do strange things to a guitarist's ego.  I'd also assumed that Howe's 'upping the ante' was down to Wakeman's departure, but perhaps this is not so.  Certainly Howe's performance on Going For The One is marginally more considered, if still unnecessarily complex in places - perhaps there is evidence that we were getting the old Wakeman/Howe trade-off back?

It's YOUR OPINION - Obviously - But

IN TERMS OF "PROGRESSIVE ROCK GUITAR PLAYING" - HOWE IS NUMBER 1

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I think your talking absolute balls wrath.........and Howe didnt even write Parallels it was Squire ....so there A view crudely exchanged!! You'll give forums a bad name Snow Dog if you just keep blindly disagreeing.  I think YOU'RE talking balls (and so on...) And you're right about Parallels of course - I confidently made the comment based on a solitary (and clearly jaded) memory of reading the back of the record sleeve 10 years ago .  I do sincerely apologise, though you will agree that the statement was not central to my hypothesis... Howe still ruins it.

I wasnt blindly disagreeing. Nothing blind about it! It was late at night, so I wrote a quicl reply. I said that "I think" your talking balls, so its also only an opinion. I like spherical objects personally. But I have no problem whatsoever with Howes guitaring and it seems your opinion formed slowly over a period of time. What Howe has done since CTTE has developed as a guitarist, and like a fine wine has actually improved. Thats what I think for allits worth. If you want to call that balls, its up to you!