Right, I've just about had enough of Steve Howe.   I used to really like Yes, but I cannot listen to them anymore because of Steve Howe's inane weedling.  I LOVE Close To The Edge, I LOVE Fragile, and I LOVE the Yes Album, but my all time favourite Yes album was always Going For The One.  Unfortunately I've started to get irritated by Howe's playing on it, and now I can barely listen to it without grinding my teeth and drumming my fingers in agitation. 

I knew things had started to go wrong on Topographic Oceans - gone were the delicate atmospheric touches, the ghostly sounds, the meaningful attack, the sheer gorgeous melody, and in their place came....inane practice sessions of relentless arpeggios and cramming notes a al Maria Carey on anti-depressants.  Then things, got really bad.  He started to peek through the layers of my second favourite Yes album, Relayer - already suffering from the lack of Wakeman, but beautifully balanced and pitched with no instruments really dominating - the Howe effect started to ruin it for me.  Utterly pointless fret runs replaced any melody, whilst the SOUND of his guitar is just bloody awful.  My First Guitar Amp.  Ear-melting shrill and totally at odds to the brilliant ambience created by Moraz and Squire.

THEN, oh God, I NEVER thought it could happen - I started in small doses, noticing his inanity on Going For The One - his guitar runs, his pointless overworked licks, his sheer audacity in standing outside the immense vision of the rest of the band.  His 'slide' contribution to the title track is ear-grating enough, but his doddering open to Turn Of The Century is contemptable.  Indeed, I'm convinced Jon Anderson just gets bored and comes in half way through it.  Listen to it, you'll see what I mean.  I think Parallels was actually Howe's composition, and listen to the solo in it.  Its utterly awful, bending fruitlessly out of tune without any discernible relation to his own backing.  Thank God he was curtailed for the epic Awaken.  Somebody take that volume pedal off him.

In short, I hope this is contentious as the recent topics have been a little glib, but Howe represents everything that is WRONG with prog guitarists. His contributions to CTTE and Fragile were perfect, but after this time, he got totally carried away with his own technique-driven weedling, and in the process, the greatness of subsequent Yes albums was vastly reduced.   

He should've spent a bit more time listening to Franco Mussida.....

I like his needless noodling, it's part of his appeal and style.
Technically he's probably one of the most gifted guitarists around.
The point you make is quite correct, but I see it the other way around.
Where most guitarists go for a more cohesive melodic sound.
Howe try's to create that same atmophere in a different way,
with more notes and more technical 'difficult' textures.

That may not applease all listeners, but I for one enjoy it.

Crimson Prince wrote: I think I know what you mean. When I listen to Relayer, it seems like Howe is in the band only to provide accents and the obligatory guitar solo. \m/ Right on bro!!

Phew, I am not alone...

I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it.

tuxon wrote: I like his needless noodling, it's part of his appeal and style. Technically he's probably one of the most gifted guitarists around. The point you make is quite correct, but I see it the other way around. Where most guitarists go for a more cohesive melodic sound. Howe try's to create that same atmophere in a different way, with more notes and more technical 'difficult' textures. That may not applease all listeners, but I for one enjoy it.

Technically, he's not.  He fluffs loads of notes on his epic fret runs (just listen to Yessongs) and his electric sound is comparable at times to a ban saw grinding a grand piano up whilst a choir of coal miners collectively grate their fingernails down a mile-wide chalk board. In terms of technique (though not quality), the bench mark is probably set by the real weedlers, Vai, Zappa, Van Halen, whilst the blowing your head off technique-meisters were probably Mussida, Hendrix, Page et al.  And Howe's acoustic work is laughable when compared to Jansch, though his attempts are admirable nonetheless. 

The main problem is that Howe sets himself targets that he clearly cannot attain, and whilst this is also admirable, Yes would have been better off without such excesses.  What happened to the cool considered grooves of Yours Is No Disgrace, or the scintillating melodies driving the epic CLose To The Edge???

The whole brilliance of Yes is based on the collective power of 5 entities - all their best albums have that trade-off, and that magic.  After Close To The Edge, Howe entered the prog wilderness, where he started seeing guitar-playing as a mathematical equation waiting to be solved.  He probably met Keith Emerson and John McClaughlin in that fog, also wandering about with their fingers permanently poised to press that elusive 'break new ground' button. By the time Yes got into the studio for Relayer, Anderson probably didn't know which way up he was, Howe clearly just cut loose with the biggest pile of self-indulgent rudiment-thick counter weedles.  The music didn't matter anymore.    

alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it.

Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice.

Wrath,

You're a fool. Steve Howe's work has had incredible highs since CTTE. Just off the top of my head:

Awaken: Awesome guitar work

Turn of the Century

Machine Messiah: Have you heard this? This is one of Steve Howe's most mindblowing guitar workouts.

The entire Turbulance album

(And most of his solo albums, for that matter)

And on and on - TFTO, Relayer (amazing Howe work on that album),

You really don't know what you're talking about and it's obvious that you're just trying to be fashionably contentious. Next time, try to be contentious about something you DO know. Then you won't look like such an idiot.

I think you need to consider the following... OPINION. whats yours is yours, it dosent make your word divine. i personally love howe's work and i'll continue to love it.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: tuxon wrote: I like his needless noodling, it's part of his appeal and style. Technically he's probably one of the most gifted guitarists around. The point you make is quite correct, but I see it the other way around. Where most guitarists go for a more cohesive melodic sound. Howe try's to create that same atmophere in a different way, with more notes and more technical 'difficult' textures. That may not applease all listeners, but I for one enjoy it.   Technically, he's not.  He fluffs loads of notes on his epic fret runs (just listen to Yessongs) and his electric sound is comparable at times to a ban saw grinding a grand piano up whilst a choir of coal miners collectively grate their fingernails down a mile-wide chalk board. In terms of technique (though not quality), the bench mark is probably set by the real weedlers, Vai, Zappa, Van Halen, whilst the blowing your head off technique-meisters were probably Mussida, Hendrix, Page et al.  And Howe's acoustic work is laughable when compared to Jansch, though his attempts are admirable nonetheless.  The main problem is that Howe sets himself targets that he clearly cannot attain, and whilst this is also admirable, Yes would have been better off without such excesses.  What happened to the cool considered grooves of Yours Is No Disgrace, or the scintillating melodies driving the epic CLose To The Edge??? The whole brilliance of Yes is based on the collective power of 5 entities - all their best albums have that trade-off, and that magic.  After Close To The Edge, Howe entered the prog wilderness, where he started seeing guitar-playing as a mathematical equation waiting to be solved.  He probably met Keith Emerson and John McClaughlin in that fog, also wandering about with their fingers permanently poised to press that elusive 'break new ground' button. By the time Yes got into the studio for Relayer, Anderson probably didn't know which way up he was, Howe clearly just cut loose with the biggest pile of self-indulgent rudiment-thick counter weedles.  The music didn't matter anymore.

Blasfemie

Fashionably contentious???  Well I admitted in my opening post that I hoped the thread would be contentious, but I honestly had no idea how to make it fashionable.  Is ripping Steve Howe up particularly 'in' at the moment, or have I stumbled upon a rich vein of form????

Clearly your definition of 'amazing' and 'awesome' are equatable to my definitions of 'overblown' and 'irrelevant', and I'm sure these would be reversible if I told you what music is currently 'fashionable' in my house at the moment. 

With regards to the Howe works you mention, yes I have heard them all except for the Turbulence album, and I await your review of it with grim intensity.  By the way, merely saying that certain songs/albums are 'awesome' and 'amazing' doesn't really convince me that I have made a horrible mistake, and should retract everything.  I have tried to explain (in admittedly poor metaphorical language) what it is that annoys me about Howe.  Perhaps you could try the same to explain to me why you LIKE his widdly-diddlying so much, particularly on these later works (given the theme of the thread....)

tuxon wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: tuxon wrote: I like his needless noodling, it's part of his appeal and style. Technically he's probably one of the most gifted guitarists around. The point you make is quite correct, but I see it the other way around. Where most guitarists go for a more cohesive melodic sound. Howe try's to create that same atmophere in a different way, with more notes and more technical 'difficult' textures. That may not applease all listeners, but I for one enjoy it.   Technically, he's not.  He fluffs loads of notes on his epic fret runs (just listen to Yessongs) and his electric sound is comparable at times to a ban saw grinding a grand piano up whilst a choir of coal miners collectively grate their fingernails down a mile-wide chalk board. In terms of technique (though not quality), the bench mark is probably set by the real weedlers, Vai, Zappa, Van Halen, whilst the blowing your head off technique-meisters were probably Mussida, Hendrix, Page et al.  And Howe's acoustic work is laughable when compared to Jansch, though his attempts are admirable nonetheless.  The main problem is that Howe sets himself targets that he clearly cannot attain, and whilst this is also admirable, Yes would have been better off without such excesses.  What happened to the cool considered grooves of Yours Is No Disgrace, or the scintillating melodies driving the epic CLose To The Edge??? The whole brilliance of Yes is based on the collective power of 5 entities - all their best albums have that trade-off, and that magic.  After Close To The Edge, Howe entered the prog wilderness, where he started seeing guitar-playing as a mathematical equation waiting to be solved.  He probably met Keith Emerson and John McClaughlin in that fog, also wandering about with their fingers permanently poised to press that elusive 'break new ground' button. By the time Yes got into the studio for Relayer, Anderson probably didn't know which way up he was, Howe clearly just cut loose with the biggest pile of self-indulgent rudiment-thick counter weedles.  The music didn't matter anymore.     Blasfemie

At least someone has a sense of humour...!!!

con safo wrote: I think you need to consider the following... OPINION. whats yours is yours, it dosent make your word divine. i personally love howe's work and i'll continue to love it.

Good for you.  Looks like I'm 2-1 down.... 

Litl wrote: I can't agree with any of this.  Howe's uniqueness, and that of the entire band, is how these wildly talented and individualistic players come together and still create a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts - rather than a whole that is a mishmash of conflicting sonic egos.  I especially respect how Howe (sorry) stands out in the mix.  Where are the guitarists now who dare to take their playing and bring it to the fore where it can command and lead?  Frankly I'm tired of the mash potato sound where all the players are blended together on the puree setting.  Let's get some more adventure going in progressive music.  Isn't that what it's all about?

A fair point indeed.  Guitar styles have changed over time, and the traditional guitar hero nowadays seems only to fit into the quasi-metal band, regurgitating Maiden & Metallica solos backwards so as not to get caught pinching ideas. 

Unfortunately, I never saw Howe's playing as 'leading' the band - rather it began (after CTTE) to ramble unabated, countering ANderson's work, and overwhelming Moraz/Wakeman's work so that the some total of the work was: a completed Yes album + some unexplained guitar acrobatics.  Yes + Howe. 

Yes, adventure and experiment   

Dont noodle aimlessly....

Well, Wrath, what I mean by "fashionably contentious" is that a lot of people post ludicruously idiotic polls about "worst" band, or "worst" singer and then list prog musicians who are talented and have done amazing work. And then a little war of insults follow, which is ridiculous. Your post seems to fall into that category somewhat, though I see you are at least somewhat articulate.

The main problem with your post is that you say that everything since CTTE is rubbish. I mean, you could have said that his style has tended to a bit more meaningless meandering or some such, but to say that NOTHING he has done since this time reaches what he did before is a laughably inaccurate statement, especially coming from someone who states he liked Howe up to CTTE.

I think the problem is the inane limitations of what constitutes for you a "good" guitar solo: Something that sets a target and "reaches" it, or whatever you're implying by your criticism of Howe. Look, every solo a guitarist does isn't a set piece that has to accomplish the same "emotional" work every time (clearly you're into some sort of "beginning - middle - end" type of guitar solo; and I am to, just not every time).

Howe plays radically differently in a wide range of contexts, and to reduce his playing to all one sound really shows that the problem is more with your hang ups with what consitutes a "good" guitar solo than with the wide range of styles Howe incorporates.

Now, I'll expand on a couple of my earlier comments. In my earlier post I was only trying to give a few highlights that completely undermine your admittedly contentious argument:

For one, Howe's guitar work on "Machine Messiah" really pushed prog rock guitar into a place I really hadn't heard it go before. The torrential guitar that ends the piece is a masterpiece of evocative guitar work, no matter who's playing it. Dismiss it if you will, but I think you've missed out on a fantastic, highly evocative guitar moment.

His acoustic work on "Turn of the Century" especially his solo is astonishing---and oddly it does seem to fit the solo style you seem to so fascistically advocate. Dismissing this work seems oddly contradictory, and I think it points up the possibility that you're really suffering from some other, more personal, problem with Howe's work.

Well, there you have it. I could go on. It would be fun to go on. But I suppose it's time for you to weigh in and make fun of what I've written, so have a go at it.

 I later added this, because I'm really not upset and I don't intend to be rude, but hey it's rock criticsm...

bluetailfly wrote: Well, Wrath, what I mean by "fashionably contentious" is that a lot of people post ludicruously idiotic polls about "worst" band, or "worst" singer and then list prog musicians who are talented and have done amazing work. And then a little war of insults follow, which is ridiculous. Your post seems to fall into that category somewhat, though I see you are at least somewhat articulate. The main problem with your post is that you say that everything since CTTE is rubbish. I mean, you could have said that his style has tended to a bit more meaningless meandering or some such, but to say that NOTHING he has done since this time reaches what he did before is a laughably inaccurate statement, especially coming from someone who states he liked Howe up to CTTE. I think the problem is the inane limitations of what constitutes for you a "good" guitar solo: Something that sets a target and "reaches" it, or whatever you're implying by your criticism of Howe. Look, every solo a guitarist does isn't a set piece that has to accomplish the same "emotional" work every time (clearly you're into some sort of "beginning - middle - end" type of guitar solo; and I am to, just not every time). Howe plays radically differently in a wide range of contexts, and to reduce his playing to all one sound really shows that the problem is more with your hang ups with what consitutes a "good" guitar solo than with the wide range of styles Howe incorporates. Now, I'll expand on a couple of my earlier comments. In my earlier post I was only trying to give a few highlights that completely undermine your admittedly contentious argument: For one, Howe's guitar work on "Machine Messiah" really pushed prog rock guitar into a place I really hadn't heard it go before. The torrential guitar that ends the piece is a masterpiece of evocative guitar work, no matter who's playing it. Dismiss it if you will, but I think you've missed out on a fantastic, highly evocative guitar moment. His acoustic work on "Turn of the Century" especially his solo is astonishing---and oddly it does seem to fit the solo style you seem to so fascistically advocate. Dismissing this work seems oddly contradictory, and I think it points up the possibility that you're really suffering from some other, more personal, problem with Howe's work. Well, there you have it. I could go on. It would be fun to go on. But I suppose it's time for you to weigh in and make fun of what I've written, so have a go at it.

I'm sorry Bluetailfly, the intention was not to make fun of people who like Howe and I apologise if I appeared a little ungracious.  I am, as you pointed out, a fan of Howe's work up to a point. 

However your summation that I have 'issues' with Howe is utterly precise - I'm 32 now, and as a growing teen in the 90s got into Yes, who provided the backdrop to some of my more colourful developing years (ahem!).  Upon trying to relive some of those moments through listening to the same albums, I found that Howe suddenly stood out as a horrible example of guitar-playing gone wrong.  I suddenly found myself listening to it and cringing when I put it on in the room with other people.  But most horrifically of all, I found it carved a great chunk out of the magic (I know, what a crap word - and you call me articulate!!) of the work as a whole. 

I am not trying to start a slanging match, indeed I put my thoughts down as honestly as I could (with obvious embellishments) in order to start a proper conversation.  This is not a Howe V Hackett poll.  I just wanted to know if it was JUST me that felt like this.  In many ways, your answer has been the most enlightening, and perhaps I will rediscover what it was I liked about Howe in the first place through this thread.  Just ask Ivan - after years of abuse directed at Genesis, I decided to listen to them properly and promptly became a fan.  I'm actually going to see the Musical Box this Saturday night .  Still havent told my friends.

Anyway, I just try to sound a bit more passionate on the forum, as I find it brings out the real feelings of the Forum posters.  Saying "Steve Howe is rubbish" was just a way in.  Saying "Steve Howe played some alright bits on Relayer dont you think?" is not going to interest anyone.

I will listen to the works you mention, and will promptly return a verdict.  And trust me, I WILL listen to them....

I think your talking absolute balls wrath.........and Howe didnt even write Parallels it was Squire ....so there

John Gargo wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Right, I've just about had enough of Steve Howe.   I used to really like Yes, but I cannot listen to them anymore because of Steve Howe's inane weedling.  I LOVE Close To The Edge, I LOVE Fragile, and I LOVE the Yes Album, but my all time favourite Yes album was always Going For The One.  Unfortunately I've started to get irritated by Howe's playing on it, and now I can barely listen to it without grinding my teeth and drumming my fingers in agitation.  I knew things had started to go wrong on Topographic Oceans - gone were the delicate atmospheric touches, the ghostly sounds, the meaningful attack, the sheer gorgeous melody, and in their place came....inane practice sessions of relentless arpeggios and cramming notes a al Maria Carey on anti-depressants.  Then things, got really bad.  He started to peek through the layers of my second favourite Yes album, Relayer - already suffering from the lack of Wakeman, but beautifully balanced and pitched with no instruments really dominating - the Howe effect started to ruin it for me.  Utterly pointless fret runs replaced any melody, whilst the SOUND of his guitar is just bloody awful.  My First Guitar Amp.  Ear-melting shrill and totally at odds to the brilliant ambience created by Moraz and Squire. THEN, oh God, I NEVER thought it could happen - I started in small doses, noticing his inanity on Going For The One - his guitar runs, his pointless overworked licks, his sheer audacity in standing outside the immense vision of the rest of the band.  His 'slide' contribution to the title track is ear-grating enough, but his doddering open to Turn Of The Century is contemptable.  Indeed, I'm convinced Jon Anderson just gets bored and comes in half way through it.  Listen to it, you'll see what I mean.  I think Parallels was actually Howe's composition, and listen to the solo in it.  Its utterly awful, bending fruitlessly out of tune without any discernible relation to his own backing.  Thank God he was curtailed for the epic Awaken.  Somebody take that volume pedal off him. In short, I hope this is contentious as the recent topics have been a little glib, but Howe represents everything that is WRONG with prog guitarists. His contributions to CTTE and Fragile were perfect, but after this time, he got totally carried away with his own technique-driven weedling, and in the process, the greatness of subsequent Yes albums was vastly reduced.    He should've spent a bit more time listening to Franco Mussida..... That was a good read... thanks for that.  I don't agree with you at all, but I always find it interesting to read opinions, particularly ones as well thought-out and literately argued as this one.

"Well thought out and literately argued"??? It was a complete rant from start to finish. This is not a model of a considered argument, but more like a Rush Limbaugh diatribe.

bluetailfly wrote: "Well thought out and literately argued"??? It was a complete rant from start to finish. This is not a model of a considered argument, but more like a Rush Limbaugh diatribe.

Hey, I don't agree with him at all, but at least he was comprehensive with his arguments.  It's obvious that he's passionate about the subject, and its refreshing to read something on this forum besides "Queen sucks, ELP sucks, Kansas sucks" etc. etc.

I thought he stated his case and used some good examples to back it up.  Again, I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM, but he did give some reasons as to why he feels the way he does.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it. Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice.

I think what had happened was an overblow of egos, mainly starting off at Tales.  Think about it: your'e a guitarist in one of the most successful bands of the time period.  You've just come off a great tour for an album that's been accepted well both criticaly and sales- wise (CTTE).  Who's ego wouldn't be huge after a thing like that?

Second, after Tales, Which Howe and Anderson wrote with minimal input from the band, I think the feeling they had on Tales, which was Anderson, Howe and Company, was still there when they went into record Relayer.  As attitudes tend to linger, so do playing styles (IMO) and Howe may have felt Compelled to up the ante on this album (due to the poor reception Tales had) or maybe he wanted to show that he was up there in skill with some of the heavy hitters of Rock music at the time (Page for example).

So, in the end, it all comes down to opinion, but I still think that Howe on Relayer, while unpleasant at times, helped to shape relayer into the wonderful album it is.

Litl wrote: I can't agree with any of this.  Howe's uniqueness, and that of the entire band, is how these wildly talented and individualistic players come together and still create a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts - rather than a whole that is a mishmash of conflicting sonic egos.  I especially respect how Howe (sorry) stands out in the mix.  Where are the guitarists now who dare to take their playing and bring it to the fore where it can command and lead?  Frankly I'm tired of the mash potato sound where all the players are blended together on the puree setting.  Let's get some more adventure going in progressive music.  Isn't that what it's all about?

If your'e looking for commanding guitar, Try the Mars Volta (apologizes for Spam....kinda)

Snow Dog wrote: I think your talking absolute balls wrath.........and Howe didnt even write Parallels it was Squire ....so there

A view crudely exchanged!! You'll give forums a bad name Snow Dog if you just keep blindly disagreeing.  I think YOU'RE talking balls (and so on...)

And you're right about Parallels of course - I confidently made the comment based on a solitary (and clearly jaded) memory of reading the back of the record sleeve 10 years ago .  I do sincerely apologise, though you will agree that the statement was not central to my hypothesis...

Howe still ruins it.  

John Gargo wrote: bluetailfly wrote: "Well thought out and literately argued"??? It was a complete rant from start to finish. This is not a model of a considered argument, but more like a Rush Limbaugh diatribe. Hey, I don't agree with him at all, but at least he was comprehensive with his arguments.  It's obvious that he's passionate about the subject, and its refreshing to read something on this forum besides "Queen sucks, ELP sucks, Kansas sucks" etc. etc. I thought he stated his case and used some good examples to back it up.  Again, I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM, but he did give some reasons as to why he feels the way he does.

I know, I'm sorry, I wasn't directing that comment to you, but to Wrath. While it is relatively well written (what with the examples and the humorous descriptive put-downs), I would classify it as a diatribe, because to sum up and dismiss a huge body of extremely varied work so bluntly is not a well-reasoned argument.

Howe is a genius, one of my all-time favourites. It was Relayer (my first Yes album I heard) that I knew this guy knew how to play like a beast. I was blown away by Sound Chaser.

John Gargo wrote: bluetailfly wrote: "Well thought out and literately argued"??? It was a complete rant from start to finish. This is not a model of a considered argument, but more like a Rush Limbaugh diatribe. Hey, I don't agree with him at all, but at least he was comprehensive with his arguments.  It's obvious that he's passionate about the subject, and its refreshing to read something on this forum besides "Queen sucks, ELP sucks, Kansas sucks" etc. etc. I thought he stated his case and used some good examples to back it up.  Again, I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM, but he did give some reasons as to why he feels the way he does.

Thanks John, I actually DO feel quite strongly about this, especially as I find my respect for these Yes albums that I once totally admired, increasingly ebbing into the ether.  

Bluetailfly, you cant expect people to come on to the forum and set down 10,000-word Aristotelian dialectic theses about trivial subjects such as Steve Howe's performances on post-CTTE albums.  Of course there are going to be holes in an argument claiming that everything he conjured subsequently, was mediocre.  The objective was simply to encourage a bit of conversation in the spirit of the forum, without resorting to the types of exchanges that we are having now. 

From your posts, I can garner that you are fan of Howe's entire career, and you made some good points in support of some of his works.  I am now a bit more interested and will investigate the stuff.  Thats how it works.  I'm not sitting here sticking pins into Steve Howe 1973 dolls. I've got Phil Collins 1976 dolls for that...  

I know that you mean...and yet I can´t agree. I find that "The Ancient" from the "Tales..." album has some of Howes best acoustic work. And everything on "Relayer", specialy "Sound Chaser" is excellent. But, yes, in a way "Fragil", "Close to the Edge" and specially "The Yes Album" has got different riffs and solos...

... On the other hand... I could hardly see Howe's labor on peda lsteel during the 'Soon' section overdone or gratuitously pyrotechnical: on the contrary, I find it sensitive and subtle, in a perfect communion with the mellotron magnificent layers provided by Moraz. Actually, the only "Relayer" track in which he seems particularly interested to show off is 'The Gates of Delirium', and he does a fine job, indeed. His Flamenco-esque electric guitar solo for 'Sound Chaser' is simply terrific, providing some fire after the jazz fusion-tinged whirlwind that preceded it. What's more, Moraz is given enough space to make some damn good solos in 'Sound Chaser' and 'To Be Over', and he also makes some damn good interplaying with Howe, doubling Steve's lines with his Mini-Moog or ARP Pro-Soloist. I don't hear Howe overshadowing his partners, I don't hear Moraz overshadowing Moraz.

Oh, I almost forget: his technique is not as polished as that of Hackett's, Akkerman's, Lifeson's or Di Meola's, just to put 4 examples.

Regards. 

Really?

All righty, then!

*considers the ability to write original and unique melodies much more impressive than technical virtuosity*

That's why I consider Justin Hayward to be more impressive in my mind than many other prog guitarists who are far more skilled. Brian Jones, Saul Hudson (better known as Slash), and (of course) Jimi Hendrix are other examples.

alan_pfeifer wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it. Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice. I think what had happened was an overblow of egos, mainly starting off at Tales.  Think about it: your'e a guitarist in one of the most successful bands of the time period.  You've just come off a great tour for an album that's been accepted well both criticaly and sales- wise (CTTE).  Who's ego wouldn't be huge after a thing like that? Second, after Tales, Which Howe and Anderson wrote with minimal input from the band, I think the feeling they had on Tales, which was Anderson, Howe and Company, was still there when they went into record Relayer.  As attitudes tend to linger, so do playing styles (IMO) and Howe may have felt Compelled to up the ante on this album (due to the poor reception Tales had) or maybe he wanted to show that he was up there in skill with some of the heavy hitters of Rock music at the time (Page for example). So, in the end, it all comes down to opinion, but I still think that Howe on Relayer, while unpleasant at times, helped to shape relayer into the wonderful album it is.

Thats an interesting point about Tales, and I didn't know that.  I'd always thought it was their collective magnificent octopus, and that each member was widely regarded as having reached their creative and performing peaks during the making of it.  Now, when I think about it, Howe's influence is plainly apparent, and perhaps that is the point where it snaps for me. 

I also didn't know that Tales was 'poorly received', as you put it.  Was this by Yes fans, critics, or by the public in general?  After the gargantuan success of previous albums I imagine this could do strange things to a guitarist's ego.  I'd also assumed that Howe's 'upping the ante' was down to Wakeman's departure, but perhaps this is not so.  Certainly Howe's performance on Going For The One is marginally more considered, if still unnecessarily complex in places - perhaps there is evidence that we were getting the old Wakeman/Howe trade-off back?

Jim Garten wrote: Wrath Of Ninian - I 100% disagree with you, and still feel Howe is one of the few remaining truly progressive-rock guitarists out there... That said, I wholeheartedly defend your right to your opinion (however incorrect it may be ), and let's face it - it makes a change from knocking ELP, now doesn't it?

Certainly does.  In fairness, I have taken a bit of bashing in this thread ( think I'm currently about 11-2 down!! ) - but it has been in good spirits, and I have learned a few things.  Its nice to hear people actually TALK about why they like/dislike something rather than just ticking a box. 

It's YOUR OPINION - Obviously - But

IN TERMS OF "PROGRESSIVE ROCK GUITAR PLAYING" - HOWE IS NUMBER 1

For me Steve Howe goes fromn brilliant to irritating. I have never really liked his chosen guitar 'sound' I find to obtrusive alongside the other instruments even in their best work, which IMO is CTTE. I dont feel they ever surpassed that album.

Howes playing on subsequent albums did lack melody and often sounded sloppy and ill rehrearsed. There were a few moments, and I have to say I like the intro to 'Turn of the century' , but generally I would rather listern to most other guitarists if full flight. It doesn't follow that I would rather listern to any other band than Yes, though.

There were moments on the Drama album, where his playing goes right through me in quite an unpleasant way!!

Give me Steve Hackett or Alex Lifeson any day of the week!

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Snow Dog wrote: I think your talking absolute balls wrath.........and Howe didnt even write Parallels it was Squire ....so there A view crudely exchanged!! You'll give forums a bad name Snow Dog if you just keep blindly disagreeing.  I think YOU'RE talking balls (and so on...) And you're right about Parallels of course - I confidently made the comment based on a solitary (and clearly jaded) memory of reading the back of the record sleeve 10 years ago .  I do sincerely apologise, though you will agree that the statement was not central to my hypothesis... Howe still ruins it.

I wasnt blindly disagreeing. Nothing blind about it! It was late at night, so I wrote a quicl reply. I said that "I think" your talking balls, so its also only an opinion. I like spherical objects personally. But I have no problem whatsoever with Howes guitaring and it seems your opinion formed slowly over a period of time. What Howe has done since CTTE has developed as a guitarist, and like a fine wine has actually improved. Thats what I think for allits worth. If you want to call that balls, its up to you!

Blacksword wrote: Give me Steve Hackett or Alex Lifeson any day of the week!

Just been digging around & couldn't believe the blasphemy of this thread!!

Steve Howe is a genius-period! This guy has won more awards for his talent than any other prog guitarist you care to mention.FACT! And i'm talking about awards voted for by his contempories not your run of the mill 'fan' awards.

I once met Max Bacon [GTR] & I asked him who was the most talented out of the two Steves? Without hesitation he said 'Howe' Far more accomplished and technically superior.

Lifeson is the Francis Rossi of Prog!

PS. Max Bacon is now singing in working men's clubs as a cabaret singer!

Litl wrote: Give me a mad scientist any day over a polished technician.  That is a mad scientist at work on The Gates of Delirium (and in the opening to CTTE)

That's absolute brilliance! You've stated my point of view better than I could myself.

12-2, Wrath

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: I really like Relayer, but moreso for White.  But that's another post.  It can be tough at times to deal with his more techinical playing on some songs, espescially Gates. However, that Guitar line at the "Soon" portion of the song saves it. Yes, White is immense - indeed, the whole band (bar Howe) are immense - its a great album.  Howe does have a couple of good moments on Relayer, like the one you mention, but his sound is still hellish.  Why is he so high up in the mix??  By the way, I think what 'saves' it are Moraz's keyboards and the beauty of Anderson's voice. I think what had happened was an overblow of egos, mainly starting off at Tales.  Think about it: your'e a guitarist in one of the most successful bands of the time period.  You've just come off a great tour for an album that's been accepted well both criticaly and sales- wise (CTTE).  Who's ego wouldn't be huge after a thing like that? Second, after Tales, Which Howe and Anderson wrote with minimal input from the band, I think the feeling they had on Tales, which was Anderson, Howe and Company, was still there when they went into record Relayer.  As attitudes tend to linger, so do playing styles (IMO) and Howe may have felt Compelled to up the ante on this album (due to the poor reception Tales had) or maybe he wanted to show that he was up there in skill with some of the heavy hitters of Rock music at the time (Page for example). So, in the end, it all comes down to opinion, but I still think that Howe on Relayer, while unpleasant at times, helped to shape relayer into the wonderful album it is. Thats an interesting point about Tales, and I didn't know that.  I'd always thought it was their collective magnificent octopus, and that each member was widely regarded as having reached their creative and performing peaks during the making of it.  Now, when I think about it, Howe's influence is plainly apparent, and perhaps that is the point where it snaps for me.  I also didn't know that Tales was 'poorly received', as you put it.  Was this by Yes fans, critics, or by the public in general?  After the gargantuan success of previous albums I imagine this could do strange things to a guitarist's ego.  I'd also assumed that Howe's 'upping the ante' was down to Wakeman's departure, but perhaps this is not so.  Certainly Howe's performance on Going For The One is marginally more considered, if still unnecessarily complex in places - perhaps there is evidence that we were getting the old Wakeman/Howe trade-off back?

Well, the point on Tales is moreso with critics AND Yes fans (Just look at the variying reviews of the album on the site.  The Wakeman point was new too, hadn't really thought of it that way.

You are a very wrathful man Wrath_of_Ninian has that got something to do with your name?

Take a Chill Pill.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote:   Unfortunately I've started to get irritated by Howe's playing on it, and now I can barely listen to it without grinding my teeth and drumming my fingers in agitation.

We all really give a damn.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: I knew things had started to go wrong on Topographic Oceans - gone were the delicate atmospheric touches, the ghostly sounds, the meaningful attack, the sheer gorgeous melody, and in their place came....inane practice sessions of relentless arpeggios and cramming notes a al Maria Carey on anti-depressants.  Then things, got really bad.  He started to peek through the layers of my second favourite Yes album, Relayer - already suffering from the lack of Wakeman, but beautifully balanced and pitched with no instruments really dominating - the Howe effect started to ruin it for me.  Utterly pointless fret runs replaced any melody..

If all you get from post CTTE Yes is "inane practice sessions of relentless arpeggios and cramming notes a al Maria Carey on anti-depressants" then you are pathetic. Perhaps your ears are fooling you. Maybe you have some cohesive 20-minute compositions you would like to share?

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: whilst the SOUND of his guitar is just bloody awful.  My First Guitar Amp.  Ear-melting shrill and totally at odds to the brilliant ambience created by Moraz and Squire.

It's called a 50's Telecaster into a really teched out Showman or Twin. But the minimoog isn't shril? Nor the optigon? Give me a freakin' break.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: THEN, oh God, I NEVER thought it could happen - I started in small doses, noticing his inanity on Going For The One - his guitar runs, his pointless overworked licks, his sheer audacity in standing outside the immense vision of the rest of the band.

To quote somebody else here; you are a fool. I have this great video of Yes in the studio in 1977 working on Going for the One. Hearing the songs go from crude and rough to professional and mastered is an amazing thing in and of itself. You are childish, unappreciative, and lack the freedom necesarry to grasp this kind of "post CTTE " music in the first place. 

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: In short, I hope this is contentious as the recent topics have been a little glib, but Howe represents everything that is WRONG with prog guitarists.

And you represent everything that is wrong with retarded internet-drones. Why dont you pick up a copy of Tormato and take some mushrooms eh?

tremulant wrote: It really annoys me how(e) alot of the people posting don't even bother to read the full thread before bashing Wrath_of_Ninian. If those people had read the whole thread perhaps they would realise that Wrath_of_Ninian is actually being open minded and is giving good arguements into a discussion. No need to be rude (yes I'm looking at you 70sSoundquality). Don't be idiots.

Indeed, very well stated.

This proved to be a very interesting thread back when it started so thanks for the person who bumped it -even though it was accompanied with a comment that was redundant to say the least; meh.

I'd have to agree with Bluetailfly and anyone else who applauds Howe's guitar work. I have liked pretty much every minute of it and the tracks on Going For The One are very emotional work. That slide that is put down doesn't bother me in the least...perhaps Howe was trying to advance the sound of Yes. And, who knows, maybe Anderson asked him to. For me, their downfall did not begin with Going...I think Going just forstalled it. 90215, despite the mainstream popularity it brought them, diluted the sound and, instead of sounding like a band trying to advance, it sounded like a band trying to join a movement they didn't belong in. I won't quite say they were trying to cash in on whatever trend was going on at the time, because I don't think they could ever do that (Yes as Punk, for example), but it didn't sound sincere.

Having said all that, his first solo release was pretty much ruined by his vocals...who ever he listened to that said to go ahead with it was a Yes man to the hilt...and I don't mean the band.

i reapeat what i've said numerous times in the past:

howe's sound is absolutely pityful, especially when he uses no pedal effect! the worst neo prog guitarist has a better sound than him. however, he is a VERY talented guitarist: one of the most original & talented prog guitarists...

his second weakness is that he terribly lacks fluidity, as reveals his solo on sound chaser, for instance.

if you do not agree that howe's sound is bad, then it is because you do not have expertise regarding guitar sounds. YOU ARE FORGIVEN, just if you don't write any further inexact comment here regarding his sound!

if you think that the best guitarists for the quality of the sound are:`

steve howe

greg lake

daryl stuermer

robert fripp

kayak's

radiohead's

instead of:

alex lifeson

steve rothery

david gilmour

steve hackett

then you should follow a course about "how to recognize the best guitar sounds"

Technical virtuousity is one thing...the ability to play and such, but to say someone is wrong because they like a certain sound is pretty silly. Music is art, art is subjective, if you like it you like it and that is it. I am not a guitar player, but I listen to enough music to know good from bad, I think. To say Steve Howe's 'sound' is bad is pretty wide open...if you have this knowledge about guitar playing you say you do, maybe you could be a bit more exact.

I would think that most would agree Howe is very technically proficient, all the guitar poles he wins in guitar magazines and such would attest to that as well.

kenmeyerjr wrote: Technical virtuousity is one thing...the ability to play and such, but to say someone is wrong because they like a certain sound is pretty silly. Music is art, art is subjective, if you like it you like it and that is it. I am not a guitar player, but I listen to enough music to know good from bad, I think. To say Steve Howe's 'sound' is bad is pretty wide open...if you have this knowledge about guitar playing you say you do, maybe you could be a bit more exact. I would think that most would agree Howe is very technically proficient, all the guitar poles he wins in guitar magazines and such would attest to that as well.

Well said, effects pedals are over-rated. I don't see anything wrong with Howe's sound (and I am a guitar player).

chopper wrote: "Lifeson is the Francis Rossi of Prog!" - what the hell does that mean?

I think he means that Lifeson is just basically a 'chord' player and not a great soloist. Sorry, but I would agree. Trying to think of a decent solo from Lifeson and I'm struggling!

Tommy wrote: chopper wrote: "Lifeson is the Francis Rossi of Prog!" - what the hell does that mean? I think he means that Lifeson is just basically a 'chord' player and not a great soloist. Sorry, but I would agree. Trying to think of a decent solo from Lifeson and I'm struggling!

Freewill, Closer to the heart, Different Strings, By-Tor and the Snow Dog, Lakeside Park, Spirit of Radio, etc etc.

One of the most imaginative soloists around, I reckon.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Right, I've just about had enough of Steve Howe.   I used to really like Yes, but I cannot listen to them anymore because of Steve Howe's inane weedling.  I LOVE Close To The Edge, I LOVE Fragile, and I LOVE the Yes Album, but my all time favourite Yes album was always Going For The One.  Unfortunately I've started to get irritated by Howe's playing on it, and now I can barely listen to it without grinding my teeth and drumming my fingers in agitation.  I knew things had started to go wrong on Topographic Oceans - gone were the delicate atmospheric touches, the ghostly sounds, the meaningful attack, the sheer gorgeous melody, and in their place came....inane practice sessions of relentless arpeggios and cramming notes a al Maria Carey on anti-depressants.  Then things, got really bad.  He started to peek through the layers of my second favourite Yes album, Relayer - already suffering from the lack of Wakeman, but beautifully balanced and pitched with no instruments really dominating - the Howe effect started to ruin it for me.  Utterly pointless fret runs replaced any melody, whilst the SOUND of his guitar is just bloody awful.  My First Guitar Amp.  Ear-melting shrill and totally at odds to the brilliant ambience created by Moraz and Squire. THEN, oh God, I NEVER thought it could happen - I started in small doses, noticing his inanity on Going For The One - his guitar runs, his pointless overworked licks, his sheer audacity in standing outside the immense vision of the rest of the band.  His 'slide' contribution to the title track is ear-grating enough, but his doddering open to Turn Of The Century is contemptable.  Indeed, I'm convinced Jon Anderson just gets bored and comes in half way through it.  Listen to it, you'll see what I mean.  I think Parallels was actually Howe's composition, and listen to the solo in it.  Its utterly awful, bending fruitlessly out of tune without any discernible relation to his own backing.  Thank God he was curtailed for the epic Awaken.  Somebody take that volume pedal off him. In short, I hope this is contentious as the recent topics have been a little glib, but Howe represents everything that is WRONG with prog guitarists. His contributions to CTTE and Fragile were perfect, but after this time, he got totally carried away with his own technique-driven weedling, and in the process, the greatness of subsequent Yes albums was vastly reduced.    He should've spent a bit more time listening to Franco Mussida.....

Obviously someone with a NARROW outlook on music.........

we are living in a world where the best progressive...

...album is yes- close to the edge

...keyboardist is wakeman

...guitarist is howe

...singer is anderson

....bassist is squire

....lyrics are close to the edge

probably just because close to the edge is at the first place.....

why not just add: the prettiest prog musician is steve howe!

LEARN, SHEEPS!

greenback wrote: i reapeat what i've said numerous times in the past: howe's sound is absolutely pityful, especially when he uses no pedal effect! the worst neo prog guitarist has a better sound than him. however, he is a VERY talented guitarist: one of the most original & talented prog guitarists... his second weakness is that he terribly lacks fluidity, as reveals his solo on sound chaser, for instance. if you do not agree that howe's sound is bad, then it is because you do not have expertise regarding guitar sounds. YOU ARE FORGIVEN, just if you don't write any further inexact comment here regarding his sound! if you think that the best guitarists for the quality of the sound are:` steve howe greg lake daryl stuermer robert fripp kayak's radiohead's   instead of: alex lifeson steve rothery david gilmour steve hackett   then you should follow a course about "how to recognize the best guitar sounds"

     Thank you, Mr. Music Scholar, for setting us poor sheep straight. Now we all know with certainty that David Gilmour is a better guitarist than either Howe or Fripp. I don't know what music school you went to, but I'll be sure to enroll my kids there, so arrogant schmucks like you can dumb them down. And thank you so much for forgiving us for our pitiful stupidity and appreciation of original, talented guitar virtuosos!!!

greenback wrote: we are living in a world where the best progressive... ...album is yes- close to the edge ...keyboardist is wakeman ...guitarist is howe ...singer is anderson ....bassist is squire ....lyrics are close to the edge probably just because close to the edge is at the first place..... why not just add: the prettiest prog musician is steve howe! LEARN, SHEEPS!

LEARN, ENGLISH!

greenback wrote: i reapeat what i've said numerous times in the past: howe's sound is absolutely pityful, especially when he uses no pedal effect! the worst neo prog guitarist has a better sound than him. however, he is a VERY talented guitarist: one of the most original & talented prog guitarists... his second weakness is that he terribly lacks fluidity, as reveals his solo on sound chaser, for instance. if you do not agree that howe's sound is bad, then it is because you do not have expertise regarding guitar sounds. YOU ARE FORGIVEN, just if you don't write any further inexact comment here regarding his sound! if you think that the best guitarists for the quality of the sound are:` steve howe greg lake daryl stuermer robert fripp kayak's radiohead's   instead of: alex lifeson steve rothery david gilmour steve hackett   then you should follow a course about "how to recognize the best guitar sounds"

I can honestly say I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

 I really like Steve Howe's playing on Relayer, and I don't believe that he completely overshadows the other band members.

 Awaken has one of the best solos ever.