...They spit on the face of Rock, No?

I believe that to some degree, the stereotype is true: many prog fans are anal-retentive musical elitists.  (If they own two CDs, the discs are shelved in alphabetical, chronological and categorical order....)

EG: "I won't mix songs by different bands on one CD, I always play the full album -- I won't listen to a song out of context," etc.

'Tis just who we are -- it's not necessarily a bad thing, but many here seem to have very narrow musical tastes.

Live and let live -- I worry much more about the environment than I do a successful American punk/pop band.

Rail on, fellow passionate, intolerant progholes....

Peter wrote: FuzzyDude wrote: I agree. Radiohead is a much more intelligent band. Rather a sweeping statement, no? Prove that, if you would. "I like" or "I prefer" does not equate with "better" or "more intelligent." Subjective perceptions don't necessarily reflect REALITY (whatever that is!)

I very much doubt my statement has anything to do with your rant against society and it's aesthetic standards.

Peter wrote: FuzzyDude wrote: Peter wrote: FuzzyDude wrote: I agree. Radiohead is a much more intelligent band. Rather a sweeping statement, no? Prove that, if you would. "I like" or "I prefer" does not equate with "better" or "more intelligent." Subjective perceptions don't necessarily reflect REALITY (whatever that is!) I very much doubt my statement has anything to do with your rant against society and it's aesthetic standards. Eh? Which rant was that? No offence, Fuzzy, but I just find such absolute statements as you've made above to be basically indefensible. We are taliking about LIKES, not FACTS. You could be right, but what are the IQs of the individual band members? Do you know? Dream theater are the best prog band ever" is a subjective judgement, and unprovable, but "Dream Theater are my favourite band" can be proven, or at least accepted as truth. That's my point -- words like "best" are bandied about too freely here. Nothing personal -- have a nice day!

There, you did it again. You're letting the aesthetic tastes of others conflict with your objective view of reality. I assume you have some familiarity with the psychiatric school of behaviorism and it's doctrine of every person being studied by their actions. What you are doing is allowing the human notion of subjective 'taste' and the fuzziness of absolute reality to clash with each other. You're assuming that when someone makes a statement, they automatically believe they are in the right. You are not allowing for ideas such as confusion or misdirection being appropriated in their ideologies. And frankly, I'm offended. That implies you feel I'm a nitwit and that somehow my intellect is merely based on societal limitations, such as ethnocentrically inbred artistic forms and a nationalistic sense of beauty. Because I find a band such as Radiohead to possess more original and pleasing ideas than Green Day is no clear indication of of my opinions on anything remotely requiring 'censum concrete' and I would appreciate it if you would take certain things for granted every once in a while. Otherwise, have a good day.

Buffalo Springfield

Sorry to get off topic, but the other night at supper, my dad was talking about them. I can't remember the name of the song, but they did write one or two hits.

Strange..

I agree with Fuzzy - Radiohead's music is much more from the intellect than Green Day's. GD's music is much more from the "Street smart attitude", IMO, and the same goes for the lyrics. Nowhere on Green Day's new album do they really attempt to break the mould - the chord progressions are standard on the whole, the melodies and lyrics are on the side of cliched, and the arrangements are clean and accessible.

Note that none of this means "bad". Cliches in music are necessary - you can hardly write a piece without throwing in a couple of cliches just to keep the piece comprehensible to the average listener.

The thought and intellectual application on OK Computer, for example, is obvious in all 3 areas I drew as examples; The chord progressions are not standard on the whole - you can pratically feel Johnny Greenwood pushing at the boundaries of what is acceptable within the rules of rock. Standard rock song formats are all but ignored. The melodies deliberately avoid the obvious, yet are seamless, accessible and engaging. The lyrics are minimalist poetry - I'm very surprised you haven't spotted that, Peter. And as for the arrangements - the four part vocal harmonies in the coda section of "Paranoid Android", the guitar solo on the near side of atonal and the quasi leitmotifs are well in the progressive realms. The build ups and disintegrations are remarkable and verge on pure noise in places - this is anything but standard rock. And yet it works well enough to be a hit single, despite clocking in at around 7 minutes.

Is that proof enough?

Certif1ed wrote: I agree with Fuzzy - Radiohead's music is much more from the intellect than Green Day's. GD's music is much more from the "Street smart attitude", IMO, and the same goes for the lyrics. Nowhere on Green Day's new album do they really attempt to break the mould - the chord progressions are standard on the whole, the melodies and lyrics are on the side of cliched, and the arrangements are clean and accessible. Note that none of this means "bad". Cliches in music are necessary - you can hardly write a piece without throwing in a couple of cliches just to keep the piece comprehensible to the average listener. The thought and intellectual application on OK Computer, for example, is obvious in all 3 areas I drew as examples; The chord progressions are not standard on the whole - you can pratically feel Johnny Greenwood pushing at the boundaries of what is acceptable within the rules of rock. Standard rock song formats are all but ignored. The melodies deliberately avoid the obvious, yet are seamless, accessible and engaging. The lyrics are minimalist poetry - I'm very surprised you haven't spotted that, Peter. And as for the arrangements - the four part vocal harmonies in the coda section of "Paranoid Android", the guitar solo on the near side of atonal and the quasi leitmotifs are well in the progressive realms. The build ups and disintegrations are remarkable and verge on pure noise in places - this is anything but standard rock. And yet it works well enough to be a hit single, despite clocking in at around 7 minutes. Is that proof enough?

Only if "non-standard" equals "better," in music.

Blues is (generally) not complex stuff, but it can convey an awful amout of soul, & feeling.

That is "better" for me with a beer (or six) than a complex, "difficult" Deus Ex Machina album, say....

My choice depends upon the setting, and the company -- sometimes the head is listening, sometimes the heart & hips.

Sometimes, ya just wanna rawk!

Interesting debate, folks -- now LET ME GO HOME!

Peter wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I agree with Fuzzy - Radiohead's music is much more from the intellect than Green Day's. GD's music is much more from the "Street smart attitude", IMO, and the same goes for the lyrics. Nowhere on Green Day's new album do they really attempt to break the mould - the chord progressions are standard on the whole, the melodies and lyrics are on the side of cliched, and the arrangements are clean and accessible. Note that none of this means "bad". Cliches in music are necessary - you can hardly write a piece without throwing in a couple of cliches just to keep the piece comprehensible to the average listener. The thought and intellectual application on OK Computer, for example, is obvious in all 3 areas I drew as examples; The chord progressions are not standard on the whole - you can pratically feel Johnny Greenwood pushing at the boundaries of what is acceptable within the rules of rock. Standard rock song formats are all but ignored. The melodies deliberately avoid the obvious, yet are seamless, accessible and engaging. The lyrics are minimalist poetry - I'm very surprised you haven't spotted that, Peter. And as for the arrangements - the four part vocal harmonies in the coda section of "Paranoid Android", the guitar solo on the near side of atonal and the quasi leitmotifs are well in the progressive realms. The build ups and disintegrations are remarkable and verge on pure noise in places - this is anything but standard rock. And yet it works well enough to be a hit single, despite clocking in at around 7 minutes. Is that proof enough? Only if "non-standard" equals "better," in music. Blues is (generally) not complex stuff, but it can convey an awful amout of soul, & feeling. That is "better" for me with a beer (or six) than a complex, "difficult" Deus Ex Machina album, say.... My choice depends upon the setting, and the company -- sometimes the head is listening, sometimes the heart & hips. Sometimes, ya just wanna rawk! Interesting debate, folks -- now LET ME GO HOME!

Ahah! So you admit they ARE more intelligent than Green Day!

Peter wrote: Only if "non-standard" equals "better," in music. Blues is (generally) not complex stuff, but it can convey an awful amout of soul, & feeling. That is "better" for me with a beer (or six) than a complex, "difficult" Deus Ex Machina album, say.... My choice depends upon the setting, and the company -- sometimes the head is listening, sometimes the heart & hips. Sometimes, ya just wanna rawk! Interesting debate, folks -- now LET ME GO HOME!

You're skim-reading, me old mucker! I attempted a very brief discussion of the mechanics of how Radiohead go beyond the standard - and it is those mechanics which show thought and intelligence.

I am deliberatly not suggesting that one band is better than the other in absolute terms - my opinion is well known, and anyway, I can only quantify "better" in relative terms.

While I'm perfectly capable of going on all night, I won't take the blame for your tardiness

Nighty-night!

Buffalo Springfield:

Don't forget Richie Furray and Jim Messina who went on to found Poco.  Then Messina joined up with Kenny Loggins in the early 70's Loggins and Messina. Very talented band. Had hits with For What it's Worth, Bluebird (Another song Steven Stills wrote about Judy Colllins), Rock and Roll Woman, Mr. Soul, Expecting to Fly and On the Way Home. They lasted about 1.5 years and they were done.