Shepherds of Cassini (New Zealand) for Prog Metal - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104

Topic: Shepherds of Cassini (New Zealand) for Prog Metal
Posted: December 11 2013 at 10:02

Yeah sorry, I inadvertently described 'the suggestions team' earlier, which I am all for.

The problem though is finding collabs who want to do this job - and moreover collabs who are well-versed in PAs different subs. The latter part of the equation is just as important as the first.

I've been on the suggestions team before, and I gotta say that it very quickly got to be something of a chore to do. It stopped being fun. I obviously can't speak for others, but I know a few people who've been in the same shoes and felt similarly.

Add to that, back when the team worked well, we had so many more posters suggesting acts from left and right - meaning that just the basic presence of such a team spurs people on to suggest even more bands. I'm not saying that I don't want PA to grow - but I really don't want this place to transform into a listing site like Discogs.

Anyway this thread ceased to be about Shepherds of Cassini a good while ago, which is why I'm closing it. If you want to discuss these matters further, I suggest you find another place for it.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 11 2013 at 07:02

Dean wrote:

Svetonio wrote:

Guldbamsen wrote:

Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.

I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.

Not a lot, but a few. What there isn't is every Bandcamp wannabie. Use RYM and AllMusic as a filter.

So many times I posted RYM links in my threads. Yea it can be a great help.

However, "use that as a filter" can not be a golden rule for me because there are very nice bands and solo artists who have physical CDs and another presence at web outside Bandcamp but they are not at RYM and AllMusic lists (e.g. Shepherds of Cassini who are alredy in PA and who got the nice reviews, as this one: http://www.muzic.net.nz/articles/reviews/48224/shepherds-of-cassini-album-review )

Also, it could be sometimes that a signed prog band is not at RYM & AllMusic's lists (e.g. Arktis/Air, awesome 6-piece Vienna's band what I suggested a few weeks ago for Avant Prog: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96077 )

mogol

Forum Groupie

Joined: September 26 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 42

Posted: December 11 2013 at 06:37

Guldbamsen wrote:

A new team to sort out if something is prog - before the team in question decides if it's prog? Well this just shows you how little you follow the forum. Sorry for being so blunt, but one of the first things folks realise when they start posting on here, is that there are just as many thoughts on what constitutes prog, as there are posters. A new team would merely slow things down even more. What they may find prog will then often be rejected when it hits the proper team, because the team has other thoughts on prog. Then you have the same running-round-circles - now only with yet another team in the mix.

No extra teams. I was actually meaning there would be only one team (e.g. consisting of all members of current teams plus maybe some other trusted collaborators). The main thought is getting more people with different points of view into evaluating process. I think it will be easier to get enough people out of one big team to listen to a given album and evaluate it than it is now.

yam yam

Collaborator

Crossover Team

Joined: June 16 2011
Location: Kerberos
Status: Offline
Points: 6343

Posted: December 11 2013 at 05:35

Since I have been a member here (approximately 2 and a half years) until quite recently, there has always been a 'New Suggestions Monitor' who did this job of deciding if something was prog or not...and then choosing what seemed to be the most appropriate sub genre team to send it to for initial evaluation if he thought it was prog. This system has always worked well, but it can be a Hell of a time consuming job at times, and the previous guy Chris, who did an absolutely fantastic, thorough, and faultless check on absolutely every suggestion that got posted here, was eventually overwhelmed by the volume of work he was being faced with. Other collabs used to chip in to help him out on occasions, but far too irregularly to make the job significantly any easier for him.

It would be good if two or three of the more experienced collabs on here (who were willing, and had the time available) could be teamed up again to officially carry out this pre-eval role. At the moment we are relying on the evaluation team members themselves dropping by here to pick up any suggestions that might apply to them, and - particularly if a sub gene isn't actually mentioned in the topic title - this doesn't always happen.

There will always be differences of opinion on which is the most appropriate sub genre for some artists who tend to mix styles, and the passing of such artists between the evaluation teams is inevitable on occasions, but such cases usually get resolved in the fullness of time, and the best compromise solution found.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:46

mogol wrote:

I'm sorry to interfere ( and sorry in advance for my poor English), but doesn't anyone feel there is a problem with the whole system of evaluation/including new bands? Multiple teams judging only within a certain sun-genre, tossing non-standard bands from team to team, thus doing several times what might be done once. People in some teams seem to be overloaded with work (while others don't have anything to evaluate for months) and from their words this evaluation takes almost all of their time.

Watching this forum I frequently see that some bands don't get included because they just don't fit neither of subgenres, while in each team (as well as among ordinary users) there are people considering them definitly progressive.

I dare suggest several ways to improve the situation:

1. Make one evaluation team which firstly is to decide if a band is prog or not, and only secondly vote for a subgenre. Thus there will be no double/triple evaluation, non-standard artists will get more chances to be evaluated correctly, and the amount of work for evaluation team members will be spread more equally.

2. Anybody can add a band. Since there were problems earlier with bio's and pictures, it can be stated in rules that a newly added band's page, which does not have these for e.g. one months may be deleted. In order to define band's genres, etc., users are proposed to assign tags while voting. Some of these are Prog/Not Prog. Thus artists, which have more 'Not Prog' than 'Prog' votes may be deleted. One or several most frequently mentioned tags get stated as band's (or album's) genre. For example - Symphonic (70%), Neo (20%), Prog Metal (10%). Evaluating each album will result in more precise definition of each album's genres. Thus changes in band' s style can be seen.

Such system will be self correcting and require less work for moderators/admins. More users involvement will result in more statistically accurate results. To ensure more professionalism in evaluating process, some group of members may be given a multiplicator for their votes (just like in current voting system)

This is a very poor attempt at making an already flawed system even more impenetrable. I don't think PA is perfect, and nor should it be. We are "normal" ordinary people running this site, so naturally there are going to be flaws and things that can be improved on, sure. BUT exchanging one system for another system that is open to anyone, is ludicrous.

1) A new team to sort out if something is prog - before the team in question decides if it's prog? Well this just shows you how little you follow the forum. Sorry for being so blunt, but one of the first things folks realise when they start posting on here, is that there are just as many thoughts on what constitutes prog, as there are posters. A new team would merely slow things down even more. What they may find prog will then often be rejected when it hits the proper team, because the team has other thoughts on prog. Then you have the same running-round-circles - now only with yet another team in the mix.

2) This idea is mad. Just let anybody add acts and then we can always go back with a big fat eraser? This is crazy - mostly because the only person on PA who's able to delete artists, is Max.

I agree about multitagging, but that horse has been flogged to death by now. I do however not see multitagging as a solution in the eval process - mostly because collabs already are multitagging. People do communicate you know - they are able to talk to one another during these processes, and they do throw around 'tags'. Yep, even in the metal quarters, you'll see folks using words like 'folk', 'electronic' and 'RIO' when evaluating bands, which then means that they accumulate ideas of where the given artist can fit within our site (not only within their own little niche). So tags are used on a daily basis, they're just not part of the artists pages. Again that's down to Max.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:45

Svetonio wrote:

I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.

Not a lot, but a few. What there isn't is every Bandcamp wannabie. Use RYM and AllMusic as a filter.

What?

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:36

Svetonio wrote:

Dean wrote:

We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?

LOL I said the sub-genre. As e.g. Eclectic Prog.
'Unsigned bands' is the sub-forum.

So... has the penny dropped yet? ...has it finally sunk in? ...do you understand what we are saying?

Svetonio wrote:

Regard ignoring Rate Your Music(RYM), I mind you that RYM was welcomed here while ex-Admin Mr Alex ( harmonium.ro) was in the New Suggestions Team. So I'm a bit confused now.

You are reading it wrong, see David's post.

What?

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:34

I'm sorry because I'm not reading that carefully.
However, I'm confused more now - because there at RYM are a lot of unsigned bands.
Nevermind.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:24

Nothing to be confused about, Alex isn't here anymore - plus you are not reading that right. Dean is suggesting that you stop suggesting acts that AREN'T featured on RYM and Allmusic. So yeah, the exact obvious of what you expressed. Take into account what's featured on other sites, see if the band in question has any sort of internet presence outside of their bandcamp page. If not, then simply don't suggest the band.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 11 2013 at 04:12

Dean wrote:

We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?

LOL I said the sub-genre. As e.g. Eclectic Prog.
'Unsigned bands' is the sub-forum.

Regard ignoring Rate Your Music(RYM), I mind you that RYM was welcomed here while ex-Admin Mr Alex ( harmonium.ro) was in the New Suggestions Team. So I'm a bit confused now.

mogol

Forum Groupie

Joined: September 26 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 42

Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:40

I'm sorry to interfere ( and sorry in advance for my poor English), but doesn't anyone feel there is a problem with the whole system of evaluation/including new bands? Multiple teams judging only within a certain sun-genre, tossing non-standard bands from team to team, thus doing several times what might be done once. People in some teams seem to be overloaded with work (while others don't have anything to evaluate for months) and from their words this evaluation takes almost all of their time.

I dare suggest several ways to improve the situation:

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:15

We already have it, it's called "Unsigned Bands", we can rename that "Unsigned Bands and DIY Prog" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

What about not recommending bands that are not listed on Rate Your Music and All Music?

What?

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 11 2013 at 03:03

What about a new PA sub-genre called for example "DIY Prog"?

Bonnek

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515

Posted: December 11 2013 at 02:27

rdtprog wrote:

You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the "Bad Prog bands" Wink

that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.

No I'm not, Bandcamp is absolutely wonderful. MySpace a near disaster.

But there is a lot of DIY from many self-proclaimed artists there, which I hope will one day either stop being suggested to us, or will somehow not make it to the evaluations teams.

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 11 2013 at 01:11

rdtprog wrote:

Bonnek wrote:

Svetonio wrote:

Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

What exactly is an amateur stuff regarding Cassini guys?
Are you think so because they're an unsigned band, or what?
Just curious.
Imho, they're fantastic band.
Also, Cassini guys were released physical CD with beautiful artwork which fits very well to their music.

In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. Typically the kind of thing that you would expect a producer of a professional product to sort out for the band.Just to be clear, I voted Yes for the band, as they are prog (post-metal), no doubt about that, and that is what we are meant to evaluate in the team.My point is that I would like to see more severe addition rules, such as those 'professional' qualities, relevance, appearance on the web outside self-promotion platforms such as bandcamp.

You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more
popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the
"Bad Prog bands" Wink

that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete
streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to
listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.

rdtprog

Special Collaborator

Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams

Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5282

Posted: December 10 2013 at 16:42

Bonnek wrote:

Svetonio wrote:

Bonnek wrote:

(...) more then half of them I consider too amateur to be here (like these Cassini guys)(...)

In their case quality of the recording, and - to my ears - lack of experience with the material and playing together. Typically the kind of thing that you would expect a producer of a professional product to sort out for the band.

Just to be clear, I voted Yes for the band, as they are prog (post-metal), no doubt about that, and that is what we are meant to evaluate in the team.

My point is that I would like to see more severe addition rules, such as those 'professional' qualities, relevance, appearance on the web outside self-promotion platforms such as bandcamp.

You're a little hard on the bandcamp platform which is becoming more popular, there's more and more interesting prog artists, better than the "Bad Prog bands" Wink

that are using this to promote themselves by offering a complete streaming of their albums, which is more satisfying for us than to listen to 3 songs from a album on My Space.

Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran

aapatsos

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9226

Posted: December 10 2013 at 13:42

Dean wrote:

Nope. A band does not need to have a minimum of song-writing quality and production values to be consider Prog. Of course judging what is Prog is most certainly subjective, however it is most definitely not qualitative : bad Prog is still Prog.

Judging that a band's product (ie "whose self-released material" and definitely not the band themselves - they are unsigned, this already establishes them technically as an non-professional band) is not of a professional standard is of course partly subjective and partly objective and is most certainly qualitative - if a band records their album using a cell-phone we reserve the right not to evaluate them for addition.

Can't agree more

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: December 10 2013 at 13:07

Svetonio wrote:

Guldbamsen wrote:

^Maybe you should do a review then Wink

Let the front-page people know about this band.

If you ask me to say something more about the album than JUST GREAT, I can tell you that at least I have not heard such a great dervish dance-like prog metal before. But, I do not have the talent to write a serious analysis as I have already said several times.

Man, you're full of excuses. Just say you don't want to, that's a perfectly valid reason. You don't want to write biographies, you don't want to write reviews. Not excuses, just good, honest, solid and acceptable reasons.

What?

Svetonio

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213

Posted: December 10 2013 at 12:28

Guldbamsen wrote:

^Maybe you should do a review then Wink

Let the front-page people know about this band.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104

Posted: December 10 2013 at 08:45

^Maybe you should do a review then Wink

Let the front-page people know about this band.

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams