Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Topic: Any Communist prog fans out there? Posted: December 20 2012 at 14:19
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I sense a pointless argument over definitions coming.
R O dude.
BTW Cuba was a capitalist country and that worked out so well that the people who weren't part of the privileged class supported Castro for many years.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 20 2012 at 14:20
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: December 20 2012 at 08:51
^Someone will tell you that according to pure Marxian-Engelsian theory/dogma, that is not communism. Democratic Kampuchea, though, as you said, is the closest to full communism we have ever had. And the record is not so bad: just 25% of the population died. I mean it could've been worse, could've been 27%.
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
Posted: December 20 2012 at 08:16
Calling the current Cuban regime capitalist is quite ridiculuous indeed. But calling the death camps of Stalin means of economic progress is really absurd, outrageous and an offense against the tens of millions of victims. If you want one real pure communist regime than look at the regime of Pol Pot. What others only talked about doing eventually Pol Pot actually put into
effect, there was no build-up, no step-by-step process, it was full,
complete communism all at once. The most nightmarish regime probably ever.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: December 17 2012 at 19:27
You probably wouldn't want to debate with anyone who doesn't agree with you anyway buy hey, that was quite a narrow list of details of course. Means of production ownership, elimination of classes, etc. But I'm open for your precise definition that will quite clearly exclude Cuba.
In a way though you are right. Cuba is just a fascist/extreme-socialist state when one group enjoys everything and the rest of the population is dependent of the state.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: December 17 2012 at 16:40
One where the absolute central planification of absolutely everything in Cuba is called capitalism because people still live in their own house and not in communes and people can actually own the clothes they are wearing.
Oh yes the reforms of Raul Castro might be mentioned. Now people can travel a little more and other little things. Yes basically Cuban is libertarian.
Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
Posted: December 17 2012 at 13:57
lucas wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
I noticed that there seems to be a lot of right-wing prog fans out there (must be due to Rush's Ayn Rand worship). This kind sucks for me because i've always been a fan of Karl Marx, Engels and the struggle of the working class to abolish itself. Robert Wyatt from the Soft Machine and Matching Mole is still an avowed communist to this day which makes me hopeful that i'm not the only communist prog fan out there.
Go and live in Cuba, and you will tell us how life compares to your current life in a country that is respectful of individual liberties.
Or maybe you should create a time machine and spend some time in the gulags.
Seriously, I can't believe there are still people in 2012 too naive to think that communism is a viable doctrine.
Cuba is a capitalist country. The market system and private property are still in effect. State ownership and central planning are still a form private property, even more centralized that under liberal capitalism. The Gulags played a similar role in the Soviet Economy to the European colonies in kickstarting the accumulation of capital to transition from feudalism to capitalism.
Many "marxist" claim that the Soviet Union was a new type of society that was beyond Marxian analysis. This statement is pure opportunism on their part because they want to preserve the myth that the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, China, Albania, Yugoslavia, ect... were/are "real socialism".
A serious conversation on Marx and the communist movement needs to move beyond this kind of rhetoric and seriously evaluate the nature of experiments in "socialism in one country".
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
Posted: December 16 2012 at 18:42
Slartibartfast wrote:
What about our plutocracy, where some people are more equal than other? I ID with democratic socialist. Capitalism is a good system when it is well regulated.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: December 16 2012 at 09:33
Doing the comparison games that some people like to do, communism dwarfs fascism in the number of dead bodies they generated around the world. Both are very similar. Both are nefarious. Yet one has a semi-coherent set of ideas behind it, defended in millions of books by intellectuals of dubious moral quality; the other was just a spur of the moment thing where opportunists grabbed power and (curiously) turned socialism into a slightly different beast. Ideologues will not see how ridiculous it is to defend one while vilifying the other when they are both so similar and so nefarious in their results.
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
Posted: December 16 2012 at 09:14
The Wizard wrote:
I noticed that there seems to be a lot of right-wing prog fans out there (must be due to Rush's Ayn Rand worship). This kind sucks for me because i've always been a fan of Karl Marx, Engels and the struggle of the working class to abolish itself. Robert Wyatt from the Soft Machine and Matching Mole is still an avowed communist to this day which makes me hopeful that i'm not the only communist prog fan out there.
Go and live in Cuba, and you will tell us how life compares to your current life in a country that is respectful of individual liberties.
Or maybe you should create a time machine and spend some time in the gulags.
Seriously, I can't believe there are still people in 2012 too naive to think that communism is a viable doctrine.
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: December 15 2012 at 06:38
The Wizard wrote:
I noticed that there seems to be a lot of right-wing prog fans out there (must be due to Rush's Ayn Rand worship). This kind sucks for me because i've always been a fan of Karl Marx, Engels and the struggle of the working class to abolish itself. Robert Wyatt from the Soft Machine and Matching Mole is still an avowed communist to this day which makes me hopeful that i'm not the only communist prog fan out there.
Not a communist, because I believe in being allowed to make my own choices as long as they are within the law, in spirit and not just in letter (as in, no tax evasion arrangements and all that). But I find the writings of Stiglitz or Krugman on economic issues resonate more with me than Reaganomics, as it is called. As inefficient as govt and public services are, you can't wish it away. It is in the capitalist's own interest to keep the flock happy and satisfied to some degree (too happy and they might get complacent and shirk work).
EDIT: And by the way I don't mind if somebody is commie, atheist, religious, capitalist, left, right or centre, what have you. I have scant regard for ideology in any case so I could hardly care less about it.
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: December 15 2012 at 05:19
Easy Livin wrote:
Admin note:
Discussions such as this are far more constructive if personal battles are avoided. The topic is an emotive one anyway, please do not be distracted by the urge to make personal judgements about others who contribute.
Oh no, you did not just write that. I'm gonna have to kick your butt.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
Posted: December 15 2012 at 03:31
Admin note:
Discussions such as this are far more constructive if personal battles are avoided. The topic is an emotive one anyway, please do not be distracted by the urge to make personal judgements about others who contribute.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.219 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Any Communist prog fans out there?
Topic Options
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
