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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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 Topic: Forgiveness
Posted: July 05 2012 at 17:04 |
 Smurph wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself?
Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do? 
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I am completely not normal and you're in the same boat as me on this subject.
You should hang out in the shred. We are well versed in these ways. |
You are new here? I am a long time vet of the shred. It ballooned my post count from 9k to 30k I am retired This may sound even worse...I honestly do NOT try to guilt and shame myself. I sincerely have periods of self loathing, and I really do get struggle with forgiving myself. I agree with Dean, it's better to make others happy than yourself bad. In fact I am probably too forgiving of others, and I do it because it's the right thing to do. I never try to make myself bad/wracked with guilt or shame. I find it slows me even more...I do better when I feel good. But what can I say? I have a hard time forgiving myself, especially when I do things to myself... Or how much of a bum I've been these past few years...living off my parents. I hate myself for it, and the negativity becomes self cyclical, ironically. Not till recently I've gotten over and started to better myself.
Edited by JJLehto - July 05 2012 at 17:08
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 17:01 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
forgiveness is something you grant to others.
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I think I agree with that.. What does it mean not to be able to forgive yourself? Does it mean that you did something you would never do again, and you can't forgive your "old" self which is now a part of history? Or is it something negative that is still a part of you, and by accepting that you can't change for the better, you think you are a bad person, and essentially the ideal "you" is not in control over yourself, therefore the lack of forgiveness.
When you think that you can't forgive yourself, it's just a way to judge yourself over something which you feel deep regret about. It's like thinking "what's done is done", and the harsh way of thinking is that "there is no excuse", therefore it can't even be forgiven.
But regret and denial of self-forgiveness is not the same thing. I think that in order not to forgive yourself you have to abandon yourself. It's like the bond between the person who makes all the choices and acts, and the person with ideals who judges the action will be broken, and then you are essentially dead, maybe?
Self-forgiveness , does it really exist? I doubt it.
And the other alternatives, it all comes down to events, actions and intents, it's not so much determined by who it is.
Another interesting question is what requirements do you think need to be fulfilled in order for you to forgive someone.
Edited by wilmon91 - July 05 2012 at 17:04
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:09 |
Smurph wrote:
Dean wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse. |
Guilt and shame are powerful creatures. |
I imagine they must be for so many people to have voted "yourself".
However, based on these results since "we" can forgive family, friends and strangers, then they in turn would have no problem in forgiving "you", ergo, forgiveness is there for the taking once "you" can accept the guilt and shame as being part of the remorse.
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What?
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Smurph
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:08 |
JJLehto wrote:
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself?
Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do?
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I am completely not normal and you're in the same boat as me on this subject.
You should hang out in the shred. We are well versed in these ways.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:04 |
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself? Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do?
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Smurph
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:02 |
Dean wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse. |
Guilt and shame are powerful creatures.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:01 |
Not always perhaps? It just seems to depend, and has a bit more to do than remorse, at least for me. I may have absolutely no doubt of my remorse but I still have difficulty. Just me I reckon
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:57 |
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse.
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What?
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Smurph
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:54 |
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:45 |
Smurph wrote:
It's easier to prove remorse to yourself if you get all self-destructive and self violent but it's extremely unhealthy and later you won't be able to forgive yourself for doing just that. |
Remorse isn't "feeling sorry for yourself" or "wallowing in self-pity" - remorse is actually being sorry for what you did.
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What?
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Smurph
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:43 |
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It's easier to prove remorse to yourself if you get all self-destructive and self violent but it's extremely unhealthy and later you won't be able to forgive yourself for doing just that.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:40 |
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What?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:35 |
UMUR wrote:
I wish it wasnīt so, but there are situations in my life I deeply regret and in that respect I have a hard time forgiving myself. I wish I could shed the guilt /shame and get on with my life without ever having to think about those situations ever again. I guess itīs part of having a conscious though and probably not as unhealthy as it sounds . |
Yeah despite Slart's insistence, it seems very normal (at least in this thread) to take it hardest on yourself, and it seems perfectly normal to me. Honestly, to be so nonchalant and say "bah I can forgive myself in a second, I dont even care" seems a bit selfish to me. Then looking at how people act, maybe we are yet again the odd ones. Many people behave like they certainly dont feel any remorse for anything they do 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:32 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
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I hope it was just once in a life. Focus man, Focus.
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That was the cheese stabbing. Mescaline? I eat it for breakfast.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:31 |
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Also I can only vouch for my personal experience but strangers have been the easiest, in fact they can rarely phase me.
Then family....I guess I just love them too much, though if a family member upsets/hurts you it may sting worse.
Then acquantances, then friends...which can be hard. I have held grudges/been made at friends for a long time.
One girl in particular from HS...I f**king hated her for years.
Eventually though it wears off.
Myself though...it can last a while and eat me up till I feel like nothing is left.
like I said, for me closeness seems to be a major factor. Like the closer the hurt the harder it is.
Edited by JJLehto - July 05 2012 at 12:31
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:42 |
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This is a very good question, and a difficult one to answer!
I'm inclined to say friends.
I'm not married, I don't have children, I don't have siblings, my father is dead, and mother barely remembers what she had for lunch. I'm essentially orphened, and an only child, so to be honest I actually don't know what it's like to be dealt a low blow by family, so I can't comment on how hard it is to forgive them.
Friends, on the other hand, are what I do have, instead of family. I have a lot of friends. I love them, and often bend over backwards to accomodate them. Typcially, they do appreciate this and don't take advantage. I would find it hard to forgive a close friend for doing wrong by me, but of course it depends on the scale of the 'crime' White lies here and there, no problem. Betrayel of trust like cracking on to a girlfriend, they probably wouldn't come back from that, to be honest. I just don't do that sh*t, I'm afraid. Girlfriends and friends may be dispenable and interchangable for some who enjoy the luxury of family, but for people like me, who are essentially on their own in that respect, friendships and physical relationships are very precious indeed. I take loyalty very seriously, and make no apology for that. I can't help who I am.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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UMUR
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 3073
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:40 |
I wish it wasnīt so, but there are situations in my life I deeply regret and in that respect I have a hard time forgiving myself. I wish I could shed the guilt /shame and get on with my life without ever having to think about those situations ever again. I guess itīs part of having a conscious though and probably not as unhealthy as it sounds .
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:09 |
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
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I hope it was just once in a life. Focus man, Focus.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 05 2012 at 07:09
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 05 2012 at 00:01 |
Man With Hat wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
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The cheeses are very important to me. They are like my teddy bears, security blankets, mouse pads, old folks home, and those things that kill toe fungus all wrapped up in a glorious whole. |
Well I am sorry but you know when I am on mescaline and have knives, there is just no telling what'll happen
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65513
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Posted: July 04 2012 at 18:34 |
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years ago my answer would probably have been different, but now sadly it's friends-- when a friendship goes bad it's a failure of the most unique and un-compelled of relationships
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Forgiveness
