Forgiveness
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics not related to music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88041
Printed Date: February 01 2025 at 14:56 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Forgiveness
Posted By: Smurph
Subject: Forgiveness
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:32
This might be weird, or pointless. Whatever.
Everyone commits transgressions against each other. Who do you find it the hardest to forgive? Do you forgive family and friends easily because they are close to you, or does your anger only fester because you have to see them? Do you forgive strangers easily because you hardly know them or did that guy that accidentally made you drop your iPod into a puddle get stalked and attacked later? Do you let your anger fester deep inside you and direct all your hatred towards yourself, or do you love yourself too much to get angry about mistakes you make?
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Replies:
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:37
Definitely myself, I think the hardest person to forgive for everyone is him/herself.
------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:38
Ditto for me. I still have anger against myself for stuff that my family has long since gotten over.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
|
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 10:43
The government. But I feel like crap, so I voted for myself.
|
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 11:03
Depends on the transgression. I'm a relatively patient guy and forgive quite easily. One thing I can't stand is betrayal = No forgiveness, you just lost me for a very long time.
Edit : Voted Myself.
-------------
|
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 11:23
Definitely myself - no matter how many times I forgive myself, I just go on & be a complete again; I don't know how I put up with me, to be honest
-------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
|
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 11:29
...joining the ranks of the self-destructive.
------------- Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
|
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 11:33
Vompatti wrote:
The government. But I feel like crap, so I voted for myself.
|
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 12:05
You only know the full motives and context of a decision of one person in the world - that's yourself. Consequently, yourself is the most difficult person to forgive.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 13:34
I think forgiving yourself is pretty easy - you know how sincere your regret and remorse is - sure you'll keep beating yourself up over it, but that's human nature. Forgiving friends is hardest because it is so easy to block them out and not listen to reason, conscious, etc.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 13:50
Finally, a different opinion. I was having trouble forgiving myself for creating a poll that was seeming useless.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 14:38
We forgive you for that.
I can't forgive myself because I haven't done anything to myself requiring forgiveness to myself, which I guess means I have to vote for the last option?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 15:00
I just hope I would never have to forgive anything to a member of my family... I'm not even sure I could forgive to a friend. But I guess it would depend on the "offence".
|
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 15:02
Strangers, definatly. When it comes to strangers, I hate them. I only start liking them if hey prove themselves to be good people. If they prove to be bad people, I just hate them even more.
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">
The greatest record label of all time!
|
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 18:28
I still haven't forgiven myself for anything that I've done in the past. I'll surely implode by the time I turn 30.
------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu
|
Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 18:47
smartpatrol wrote:
Strangers, definatly. When it comes to strangers, I hate them. I only start liking them if hey prove themselves to be good people. If they prove to be bad people, I just hate them even more. |
How do you make friends then? Hating someone that you know nothing about right from the get go could make them start to hate you. I vote for myself, even though I find it hard to forgive some things other people have done, mainly family members.
-------------
|
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 19:02
Sheavy wrote:
smartpatrol wrote:
Strangers, definatly. When it comes to strangers, I hate them. I only start liking them if hey prove themselves to be good people. If they prove to be bad people, I just hate them even more. |
How do you make friends then? Hating someone that you know nothing about right from the get go could make them start to hate you. |
in my experiance, people are very rude and mean, MUCH more often than not. My natural hate for strangers has grown out of that. And, how do I make friends? I don't
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">
The greatest record label of all time!
|
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: July 03 2012 at 03:07
Dean wrote:
Forgiving friends is hardest because it is so easy to block them out and not listen to reason, conscious, etc. |
That is a very good point - friendship, trust & respect can take a long time to earn, but a moment to lose; if you're let down by friends, it can be difficult to restore the relationship
-------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 03 2012 at 10:58
Dean wrote:
I think forgiving yourself is pretty easy - you know how sincere your regret and remorse is - sure you'll keep beating yourself up over it, but that's human nature. Forgiving friends is hardest because it is so easy to block them out and not listen to reason, conscious, etc. |
same thing for family, I find
But I'd vote for acquaintainces (work mates that aren't on "friendly" terms for example.. or " friends" of friends...
Well not forgiving is rather a rare thing in my vocabulary... but the ensuing un-trust will probably last a lifetime
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 03 2012 at 11:08
Forgiving yourself is difficult because you're forced to live with yourself and with the consequences of your actions but in the end it's doable. It might be more difficult for some, impossible for others, but there are ways.
Forgiving family is more difficult because of the inherent loyalty you suppose they owe you. The same, to a lesser degree, with friends. But, again, bonds are stronger than blame.
Forgiving strangers, on the other hand, might be impossible. There is no force moving you to forgive someone you don't give a damn about. Therefore, I choose this.
-------------
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 15:35
I'm surprised there is any differing opinions, I thought for sure it'd stay one sided.
I think it's always toughest t forgive yourself. The more detached you are...well the more detached you are, thus a bit easier to forgive. You can't get any closer to yourself, than you!
Also you can only dwell on others so long, but you can dwell on yourself for ages...I know someone who can't forgive herself for stuff she did over 20 years ago :(
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 15:50
I find it nuts that yourself is winning when forgiveness is something you grant to others.
1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3. to grant pardon to (a person). 4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies. 5. to cancel an indebtedness or http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liability" rel="nofollow - liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.
If you've ever forgiven or not forgiven yourself there is probably some expensive psychiatric drug out there that you could become hooked on which won't fix your problem.
You are all now granted absolution from me for your self indulgences.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 16:02
This is prog....we're supposed to have various mental ailments. You slart have plenty :P
|
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 16:04
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced.
------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 16:15
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
|
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 16:42
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
|
The cheeses are very important to me. They are like my teddy bears, security blankets, mouse pads, old folks home, and those things that kill toe fungus all wrapped up in a glorious whole.
------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 18:34
years ago my answer would probably have been different, but now sadly it's friends-- when a friendship goes bad it's a failure of the most unique and un-compelled of relationships
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 00:01
Man With Hat wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
|
The cheeses are very important to me. They are like my teddy bears, security blankets, mouse pads, old folks home, and those things that kill toe fungus all wrapped up in a glorious whole. |
Well I am sorry but you know when I am on mescaline and have knives, there is just no telling what'll happen
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:09
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
|
I hope it was just once in a life. Focus man, Focus.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:40
I wish it wasnīt so, but there are situations in my life I deeply regret and in that respect I have a hard time forgiving myself. I wish I could shed the guilt /shame and get on with my life without ever having to think about those situations ever again. I guess itīs part of having a conscious though and probably not as unhealthy as it sounds.
------------- http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - Metal Music Archives
https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 07:42
This is a very good question, and a difficult one to answer!
I'm inclined to say friends.
I'm not married, I don't have children, I don't have siblings, my father is dead, and mother barely remembers what she had for lunch. I'm essentially orphened, and an only child, so to be honest I actually don't know what it's like to be dealt a low blow by family, so I can't comment on how hard it is to forgive them.
Friends, on the other hand, are what I do have, instead of family. I have a lot of friends. I love them, and often bend over backwards to accomodate them. Typcially, they do appreciate this and don't take advantage. I would find it hard to forgive a close friend for doing wrong by me, but of course it depends on the scale of the 'crime' White lies here and there, no problem. Betrayel of trust like cracking on to a girlfriend, they probably wouldn't come back from that, to be honest. I just don't do that sh*t, I'm afraid. Girlfriends and friends may be dispenable and interchangable for some who enjoy the luxury of family, but for people like me, who are essentially on their own in that respect, friendships and physical relationships are very precious indeed. I take loyalty very seriously, and make no apology for that. I can't help who I am.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:31
Also I can only vouch for my personal experience but strangers have been the easiest, in fact they can rarely phase me. Then family....I guess I just love them too much, though if a family member upsets/hurts you it may sting worse. Then acquantances, then friends...which can be hard. I have held grudges/been made at friends for a long time.
One girl in particular from HS...I f**king hated her for years. Eventually though it wears off.
Myself though...it can last a while and eat me up till I feel like nothing is left. like I said, for me closeness seems to be a major factor. Like the closer the hurt the harder it is.
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:32
Slartibartfast wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Man With Hat wrote:
The people who stab your cheeses unannounced. |
One damn time...and I told you I was on mescaline
|
I hope it was just once in a life. Focus man, Focus.
|
That was the cheese stabbing. Mescaline? I eat it for breakfast.
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:35
UMUR wrote:
I wish it wasnīt so, but there are situations in my life I deeply regret and in that respect I have a hard time forgiving myself. I wish I could shed the guilt /shame and get on with my life without ever having to think about those situations ever again. I guess itīs part of having a conscious though and probably not as unhealthy as it sounds. |
Yeah despite Slart's insistence, it seems very normal (at least in this thread) to take it hardest on yourself, and it seems perfectly normal to me. Honestly, to be so nonchalant and say "bah I can forgive myself in a second, I dont even care" seems a bit selfish to me. Then looking at how people act, maybe we are yet again the odd ones. Many people behave like they certainly dont feel any remorse for anything they do
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:40
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:43
It's easier to prove remorse to yourself if you get all self-destructive and self violent but it's extremely unhealthy and later you won't be able to forgive yourself for doing just that.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:45
Smurph wrote:
It's easier to prove remorse to yourself if you get all self-destructive and self violent but it's extremely unhealthy and later you won't be able to forgive yourself for doing just that. |
Remorse isn't "feeling sorry for yourself" or "wallowing in self-pity" - remorse is actually being sorry for what you did.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:54
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 12:57
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:01
Not always perhaps? It just seems to depend, and has a bit more to do than remorse, at least for me.
I may have absolutely no doubt of my remorse but I still have difficulty. Just me I reckon
|
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:02
Dean wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse. |
Guilt and shame are powerful creatures.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:04
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself? Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do?
|
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:08
JJLehto wrote:
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself? Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do?
|
I am completely not normal and you're in the same boat as me on this subject.
You should hang out in the shred. We are well versed in these ways.
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/
wtf
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 13:09
Smurph wrote:
Dean wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Feeling awful about doing something so that you feel an unrelenting urge to do these things does not seem to be self-pity. The thought is not "I feel so sorry for myself." The thought is "The person that I have wronged should want to destroy me. I shall do it for them to ease the burden of guilt." I have never thought of that as self-pity. |
I've never felt like that. If I've wronged someone then I want to make them feel better, not myself feel worse. |
Guilt and shame are powerful creatures. |
I imagine they must be for so many people to have voted "yourself".
However, based on these results since "we" can forgive family, friends and strangers, then they in turn would have no problem in forgiving "you", ergo, forgiveness is there for the taking once "you" can accept the guilt and shame as being part of the remorse.
------------- What?
|
Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 17:01
Slartibartfast wrote:
forgiveness is something you grant to others.
|
I think I agree with that.. What does it mean not to be able to forgive yourself? Does it mean that you did something you would never do again, and you can't forgive your "old" self which is now a part of history? Or is it something negative that is still a part of you, and by accepting that you can't change for the better, you think you are a bad person, and essentially the ideal "you" is not in control over yourself, therefore the lack of forgiveness.
When you think that you can't forgive yourself, it's just a way to judge yourself over something which you feel deep regret about. It's like thinking "what's done is done", and the harsh way of thinking is that "there is no excuse", therefore it can't even be forgiven.
But regret and denial of self-forgiveness is not the same thing. I think that in order not to forgive yourself you have to abandon yourself. It's like the bond between the person who makes all the choices and acts, and the person with ideals who judges the action will be broken, and then you are essentially dead, maybe?
Self-forgiveness , does it really exist? I doubt it.
And the other alternatives, it all comes down to events, actions and intents, it's not so much determined by who it is.
Another interesting question is what requirements do you think need to be fulfilled in order for you to forgive someone.
|
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 17:04
Smurph wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Also Dean you talk about onto others...what about wronging yourself? Or am I, yet again, not normal and do people not treat themselves like sh*t as much as I do?
|
I am completely not normal and you're in the same boat as me on this subject.
You should hang out in the shred. We are well versed in these ways. |
You are new here? I am a long time vet of the shred. It ballooned my post count from 9k to 30k I am retired
This may sound even worse...I honestly do NOT try to guilt and shame myself. I sincerely have periods of self loathing, and I really do get struggle with forgiving myself. I agree with Dean, it's better to make others happy than yourself bad. In fact I am probably too forgiving of others, and I do it because it's the right thing to do. I never try to make myself bad/wracked with guilt or shame. I find it slows me even more...I do better when I feel good.
But what can I say? I have a hard time forgiving myself, especially when I do things to myself... Or how much of a bum I've been these past few years...living off my parents. I hate myself for it, and the negativity becomes self cyclical, ironically. Not till recently I've gotten over and started to better myself.
|
|