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James Lee View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fourth of July
    Posted: July 13 2005 at 01:55

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Georgia

Button Gwinnett


One of my all-time favorite names in American History.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 14:44
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

The last one the pursuit of "happiness" was changed from "property" AFTER the civil war.

no it wasnt, Jefferson ripped the line off from a British writer, (I forget his name) and THERE the line had property.  It was always Happiness

 

Your right too much beer last night.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 12:08
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Doctor:

Excu-u-u-se me?   You and I agree on something? 

Actually, I want to assure you and Billboh (and anyone else who cares...) that I am thankfully more thick-skinned than to allow comments like that to rattle me.  Indeed, as I noted in my response to Gleam, I disagree more with his illogical choice of phrases than with his intent.  And as anyone who "knows" me here knows, I am a firm believer in the adage: "I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

As you and others have pointed out, all Gleam does in making statements like this is say more about himself than he does about either the person he's spealking about (in this case, me) or the issue about which he is speaking.  I have no qualm or issue with even the most patriotic, flag-waving, redneck Republican - which I suspect Gleam is not.  I am only saddened that some people are either unwilling to incapable of engaging in interesting, even combative discourse without resorting to unhelpful and irrelevant language.

Still, thank you both for your support.

Peace.

There's a first time for everything Maani.

I agree with that adage as well, but posts like that add nothing to the debate and show a great deal of ignorance on the part of the poster.  I think one of the biggest political problems in this country is that political debate has deteriorated to nothing more than name calling, even among the candidates.  It is unhelpful and obnoxious and I'm pretty sure it's not what the founding fathers had in mind when they crafted the first amendment.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 08:17
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Not quite correct!! The Flooding thing was during the first World War!! Belgium was more heroic on that one!! Also took a major beating as far as casualty is concerned  and the rebuilding porocess of Belgium, Northern France  was done by forcing Germany to pay for damages , which drove Germany to famine , crisis and allowed for this Nazi thing to come up!!

I'm sorry Sean, you are absolutely right...to be honest, I actually remembered this after posting it and should have corrected myself, for which I apologise for typing away without thinking!

Now that I remember, the 'In Flanders Fields' museum in Ypres has a very interesting section on this incident, along with the heavy sacrifice that the Belgian people made in 1914...

Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 05:48
>Yes, we may still be the "freest" country in the world

That's what they want you to think, you should visit Western Europe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 03:56
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

Hey come on.. what the heck did you expect The Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark or even Norway to actually do? 

1) Today, the joint population of those countries is 35 million; Germany's would have been over 100 million.

2) They hadn't planned on warfare, whereas Germany had been starting to stockpile since 1933.

3) None of them had an 'Industrial Heartland' to speak of, or any real Natural defenses.

Despite this, the Belgian people still slowed the German progress through flooding their land, and many lost their lives in the resistance.

You can hardly compare Benelux with the USA, can you?

Actually from the German-Belgian border to the Belgian industrial heartland , it is all the way dowhill. This makes for an immeasurable advantage when gravity helps you. Especially when they were almost past Liege (famed FN weapons, but a lot more then riffles back then) got overtaken some ten hours after crossing the border unexpectedly!

Not quite correct!! The Flooding thing was during the first World War!! Belgium was more heroic on that one!! Also took a major beating as far as casualty is concerned  and the rebuilding porocess of Belgium, Northern France  was done by forcing Germany to pay for damages , which drove Germany to famine , crisis and allowed for this Nazi thing to come up!!

However, Belgian Forces did oppose 18 days resistance in order for all the outside (mostly UK)troops to retreat to UK, and give time to the French and Belgian resistance to flee to London.

Holland was Neutral (did not even particiopate in WW1) and was not expecting an attack and only lasted two days because they were not prepared at all!

Some French politicians of those days , actually hit on Belgian indecision between Neutrality and Allied Forces which is the reason why the French Maginot line of defence got overtaken by the back as the German simply invaded Belgium and took them by reverse.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 01:45
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

The last one the pursuit of "happiness" was changed from "property" AFTER the civil war.

no it wasnt, Jefferson ripped the line off from a British writer, (I forget his name) and THERE the line had property.  It was always Happiness

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 00:52

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

The last one the pursuit of "happiness" was changed from "property" AFTER the civil war.



Edited by Garion81


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2005 at 00:19
^ IMO the U.S. Constitution is much more important document to our history.

Technically the Civil War was fought over interpretation of that, not the Decleration of Independence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 23:36

To anyone who cares

It is for these words we celibrate the 4th of July even if we sometimes do not resemble them anymore or remember them anymore. On the 4th of July I stood in a place where a battle was fought during the American civil war 142 years ago. 50,000 PEOPLE were casulties that day and they on both sides believed these words.  They gave the ultimate sacrifce in the belief they were trying to uphold these words. If that makes me patriotic or naive so be it.  These words are as  relevent today as they were 229 years ago. More so because the polorazation I see in this country is almost as bad as it was then. 

You know, the bomings in Great Britan last week taught me one thing.  It isn't George Bush, Tony Blair or Osama Bin Ladin that are dying in these attacks.  It is people like us. You and me.  In all the politcs and such remember, we are all pawns in political warfare.

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:

New Hampshire

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts

John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island

Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut

Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York

William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey

Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania

Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware

Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland

Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia

George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina

William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina

Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia

Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

For additional information about the Declaration of Independence, see these sites:



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 23:19
Originally posted by gdub411
<P>[/QUOTE gdub411

[/QUOTE wrote:

In 1939-1940 the US army was a joke. While it was discusting that we didn't lend a hand until we were virtually forced to, I doubt we would have been much help militarily until 1942 anyhoo.

 

In 1939-1940 the US army was a joke. While it was discusting that we didn't lend a hand until we were virtually forced to, I doubt we would have been much help militarily until 1942 anyhoo.

 

[/QUOTE]

 

Gdub I usually don't disagree with you on history but did you forget America was coming out the great depression and it took the last three years of the 1930's to be able to gear up the factories for weapons that were sold to Soviet union and Great Britain?  We could have sent a lot of transients with shovels who working with TVA and such but i doubt they would have done much good.  Even if we wanted to we couldn't.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 22:55

Doctor:

Excu-u-u-se me?   You and I agree on something? 

Actually, I want to assure you and Billboh (and anyone else who cares...) that I am thankfully more thick-skinned than to allow comments like that to rattle me.  Indeed, as I noted in my response to Gleam, I disagree more with his illogical choice of phrases than with his intent.  And as anyone who "knows" me here knows, I am a firm believer in the adage: "I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

As you and others have pointed out, all Gleam does in making statements like this is say more about himself than he does about either the person he's spealking about (in this case, me) or the issue about which he is speaking.  I have no qualm or issue with even the most patriotic, flag-waving, redneck Republican - which I suspect Gleam is not.  I am only saddened that some people are either unwilling to incapable of engaging in interesting, even combative discourse without resorting to unhelpful and irrelevant language.

Still, thank you both for your support.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 18:07
Originally posted by gleam gleam wrote:

Maani,

Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women.

If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here?

Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate.

Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.

 


This is the kind of retarded redneck nonsense that give Americans a bad name all around the world. You should be ashamed of your hypocrisy and your false patriotism. All you accomplish is spread more hatred for the USA all around the world, which is a disservice to your country. If i was you i would be ashamed each time i see an American flag.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2005 at 14:38
Originally posted by Drew Drew wrote:

Originally posted by gleam gleam wrote:

Maani,


Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can
sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's
freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass,
however I don't hit women.


If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians
risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal
Mexicans living here?


Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping,
limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate.


Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.


 



 


  


Speaking as someone who does not often agree with the ultra-liberal, and sometimes anti-american, viewpoints of a lot of the members on these boards, I must say that I was absolutely disgusted when I read this post.  I am obviously for very spirited political arguments (all you have to do is see some of my other posts in this forum for that), and I even will get very agressive in my disagreements.  However, attacking someone's politics is one thing.  Attacking someone personally for having different views from you shows a lack of intelligence and a lack of class.  These kinds of posts make all of us who do not share a liberal world-view look like knuckle-dragging crap flingers who just climbed down out of the trees.  Please keep your ad hominem attacks and threats to yourself.  If I was Maani, I would show you to the door.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 15:15

According to something I read (yeah, that's how trustworthy it is), something like half of the US citizens that do own passports haven't travelled outside the country's borders either.

If anyone's going to criticise someone for complaining about his own country (I don't know exactly what maani said, I'm jus going on the responses), doesn't that defeat the whole point of freedom of expression anyway? If everyone was 100% behind their country in every circumstance, the whole world'd go to sh*t because no one would care how terrible everything got. Cynicism's a vital part of the democractic process, I'm just glad it's no longer me who practises it .

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 14:59
Originally posted by fandango fandango wrote:

Originally posted by gleam gleam wrote:

Hi Fandango,

Guess again...

I'm currently in Brazil on business and had some downtime to catch up on this thread. As far as travel broadening the mind is concerned, I'm in agreement. You should try it to some time...

In regards to the 70% of Americans not holding a passport, the number is actually higher. 78.3% of Americans do not hold a passport, however taking into consideration that there are 296,571,563 Americans, that equates to 64,356,029 that do hold a passport. It's also interesting to point out that Englands population is somewhere in the vicinity of 60,000,000. Therefore there are approximately 4.3 Million more Americans holding passports than there are Englishmen.

Isn't math fun!  

It also means that there are nearly 1/4 of a billion Americans who have possibly not seen anything of the world outside of their own country... is it surprising that your country has the reputation for being so inward looking?

You can do anything with stats; I'd imagine that over 90% of Dutch people do have passports (you see them absolutely everywhere) which speaks volumes for how friendly, open and accepting they are as a nation.

What saddens me is from your repsonse, you are obviously no redneck 'hick'; probably a well educated, erudite, intelligent guy who has a lot of reponsibility in your job, and yet the answer you gave Maani was rather ignorant in every sense of the word.

yea Holland is a tiny country its easy to get around Europe for you

Most americans can't afford travel to Europe.  You do not even need a passport to get into Canada or Mexico I think. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 13:54
Originally posted by Joren Joren wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by JrKASperov JrKASperov wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Joren...quite seriously...your anti-american rhetoric has become quite bothersome. I don't bad mouth your country, so show the same respect.



Your false argumentation makes me laugh.

Joren doesn't care if you would bad-mouth his country, maybe agree with a lot of the things you have critique about. Try the same with you, and you'll call us bothersome.

I know Joren wasn't really bad mouthing america. I am quite aware he was referring to nationism and why celebrate it. I was going to correct it, but I was too lazy to bother. I still find it annoying. Him saying he would rather work is just silly. I get 8 holidays in a year and I am glad to have the day off is all I was saying. I didn't attend any fire work displays. I ended up staying home and talking to your sorry asses all day. What few extra days I can get away from work is well appreciated. Perhaps he just doesn't work 50+ hours/week to understand how nice it is when there is a reprieve from the mundane. because of that he was bothersome and I needed to swat him like the annoying bug he was yesterday.

 

You got me mad there for a while, but I'm glad in the end you noticed that I'm not just bad mouthing America  (thanks for the support, JrK ). It's just that I am against nationalism and patriotism and you'll have to admit that American people have a more patriostic attitude than people in the Netherlands. That doesn't mean I thnk the US suck or anything. I would love to go there once. I just don't like certain suspects of the US which I feel very strongly about. The Netherlands are not an ideal country either and I WOULD NEVER say that a certain people suck, because I hate racism even more than nationalism! (Just to to make sure that that's clear!)

Joren

P.S. I apologize for ruining your free day
P.S.2 If my typing and grammar suck: I'm a bit tired

just to make sure that you read this gdub...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 11:21
Originally posted by gleam gleam wrote:

Hi Fandango,

Guess again...

I'm currently in Brazil on business and had some downtime to catch up on this thread. As far as travel broadening the mind is concerned, I'm in agreement. You should try it to some time...

In regards to the 70% of Americans not holding a passport, the number is actually higher. 78.3% of Americans do not hold a passport, however taking into consideration that there are 296,571,563 Americans, that equates to 64,356,029 that do hold a passport. It's also interesting to point out that Englands population is somewhere in the vicinity of 60,000,000. Therefore there are approximately 4.3 Million more Americans holding passports than there are Englishmen.

Isn't math fun!  

It also means that there are nearly 1/4 of a billion Americans who have possibly not seen anything of the world outside of their own country... is it surprising that your country has the reputation for being so inward looking?

You can do anything with stats; I'd imagine that over 90% of Dutch people do have passports (you see them absolutely everywhere) which speaks volumes for how friendly, open and accepting they are as a nation.

What saddens me is from your repsonse, you are obviously no redneck 'hick'; probably a well educated, erudite, intelligent guy who has a lot of reponsibility in your job, and yet the answer you gave Maani was rather ignorant in every sense of the word.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 10:45
Originally posted by gleam gleam wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Borealis Borealis wrote:

I guess they voted for bush too... Still, I don't understand how this guy got reelected.

Well, when the best the dems can offer is Kerry, that should pretty much make it obvious why Bush has remained President.

The question is: Who was the douche and who was the turd ...

 

That would be you. 

No, I'm Stan.

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Status: Offline
Points: 299
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2005 at 10:41
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Originally posted by Borealis Borealis wrote:

I guess they voted for bush too... Still, I don't understand how this guy got reelected.

Well, when the best the dems can offer is Kerry, that should pretty much make it obvious why Bush has remained President.

The question is: Who was the douche and who was the turd ...

 

That would be you. 

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