This is for our troops spending the fourth of July in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere they proudly serve.

HOORAH!

Be careful and come home soon.

^^

Well said, and happy fourth of july to us all

(at least the ones from America anyway)

Happy Fourth Of July to all our American Friends!

WOW

THOSE GUYS MUST GET REAL TIRED HOLDING THAT FLAG UP ALL DAY, EVERYDAY!!

HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY TO ALL AMERICAN FORUM MEMBERS

Sweetnighter wrote: What do brits think of Fourth of July? I mean, c'mon, the 4th is the day that 300 million people celebrate having gotten rid of you. Honestly.

Which is the feeling in a family when a son who is like a pain in the arse finally goes to live away?

Have a nice one!!!

nacho wrote: Sweetnighter wrote: What do brits think of Fourth of July? I mean, c'mon, the 4th is the day that 300 million people celebrate having gotten rid of you. Honestly.  Which is the feeling in a family when a son who is like a pain in the arse finally goes to live away? Have a nice one!!!

Happy Fourth of July!

I certainly understand and appreciate the intent of the Founding Fathers in creating a society in which the "will of the people" ruled through "democratic" process rather than a king or other despot ruling under the guise of "divine right."

However, at the risk of being something of a party pooper, I don't see much to celebrate since it took less than 230 years for the idea to fall apart, and for the U.S. to be going down the road toward a proto-totalitarian quasi-theocracy.  We are now ruled through "fear" (both subtly and overtly) rather than reason, and lies, half-truths and "spin" have replaced honest discourse and debate.

Yes, we may still be the "freest" country in the world (though those freedoms are very carefully controlled...).  However, that seems no longer a good enough reason for people to be excited about coming here: in a recent global poll, the people of only one country (India) voted the U.S. as the country they would most like to live in.  We ranked from 2nd to 15th among most of the other countries polled (including "First World," "Second World" and "Third World" countries).  And the number of Americans who are at least discussing the idea of leaving has grown exponentially - not simply due to 9/11, but also due to the socio-political climate that 9/11 catalyzed here: one characterized most frighteningly by a willingness of the populace to permit the erosion or curtailing of civil liberties and freedoms in the name of some illusory "security."

Apparently, the "love affair" with America and its "streets paved with gold" is now finally seen by non-Americans as the myth it always was, and Americans are now finally admitting that the so-called "American Dream" is hopelessly difficult, if not impossible, to attain.

So much for the "Great Experiment."  Nice try, George, Thom, James, et al.

Peace.

Maani,

Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women.

If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here?

Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate.

Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.

gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.

Gleam,I dont mind who I hit,if I am punishing bullies.

Thousands of Cubans risk their lives to be in the USA because they do not know any better!

You are typical of the red-neck,chauvinistic characture that is so often our image of American males.

Maani is merely pointing out the obvious:

Some people are more free than others...............lift your head above the sand bags and look around you.

Assholes like you really make me want to crack heads...US military trained or otherwise!

Peace. Off. !

maani wrote: Yes, we may still be the "freest" country in the world (though those freedoms are very carefully controlled...).  However, that seems no longer a good enough reason for people to be excited about coming here: in a recent global poll, the people of only one country (India) voted the U.S. as the country they would most like to live in.  We ranked from 2nd to 15th among most of the other countries polled (including "First World," "Second World" and "Third World" countries).  And the number of Americans who are at least discussing the idea of leaving has grown exponentially - not simply due to 9/11, but also due to the socio-political climate that 9/11 catalyzed here: one characterized most frighteningly by a willingness of the populace to permit the erosion or curtailing of civil liberties and freedoms in the name of some illusory "security."

What country was ranked first then and now?

gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.

Gleam, we had just buried the hatchet yesterday, and I don't want to dig it up... But I really think that the fact that you overreact in such a way to Maani's post is the real proof that your country is not as free as you think it is. Or maybe it's because of people like you that it's not as free as it should be... perhaps you need more people like Maani there... (and I'm not talking about his job )

Peace (I mean it!!!)

Tony R wrote: gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag. Gleam,I dont mind who I hit,if I am punishing bullies. Thousands of Cubans risk their lives to be in the USA because they do not know any better! You are typical of the red-neck,chauvinistic characture that is so often our image of American males. Maani is merely pointing out the obvious: Some people are more free than others...............lift your head above the sand bags and look around you. Assholes like you really make me want to crack heads...US military trained or otherwise! Peace. Off. !

Thanks Tony,

As usual, your as erudite as ever. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could attract this much attention in real life...

Cheers 

gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag.

A bit harsh, but I couldn't help feel annoyance at Maani taking an opportunity to jump on his soapbox and spew out his silliness. Very typical of him actually.

Perhaps someone should light a firecracker and shove it up his hippi ass.

I'm a fanatic South Park fan ...

Do you know the episode "I'm a little bit country"?

MikeEnRegalia wrote: I'm a fanatic South Park fan ... Do you know the episode "I'm a little bit country"?

not by name...why don't you tell us what happened?

Tony R wrote: gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag. Gleam,I dont mind who I hit,if I am punishing bullies. Thousands of Cubans risk their lives to be in the USA because they do not know any better! You are typical of the red-neck,chauvinistic characture that is so often our image of American males. Maani is merely pointing out the obvious: Some people are more free than others...............lift your head above the sand bags and look around you. Assholes like you really make me want to crack heads...US military trained or otherwise! Peace. Off. !

Once again you're wrong as usual Tony. If they come over here and hate their situation then why don't the Cubans vote democratic and see if that will change their lives anyway. Most cubans vote for Republican because the last thing they want is have risked their lives only for it to turn into the socialistic/communistic country they were fleeing from in the 1st place. Quite frankly democrats scare the hell out of them.

If you think the mexicns are ignorant then perhaps you really haven't seen the condition of that country. Barely above 3rd world standards. I live in a town with a VERY large mexican population and while they miss their people there,and do have their own national pride, they are still glad to be out, because being poor in america is far different than being poor elsewhere.

gleam:

As Tony points out, I was, indeed, speaking comparatively: of course we have more (controlled) freedoms than many countries.  That was not my point.

I also find it nearly hysterical that you refer to me as "Bible-thumping," since I make it clear that I am not happy with the fact that the so-called "Christian Right" is helping to turn this country into a quasi-theocracy.  Indeed, it seems to me that if I were "Bible-thumping," I would be supportive of the role that "religion" (and the "lobbying" of the Christian Right) is playing in politics.  Clearly, I am not.

And of course I realize my very ability to criticize my government is a freedom that many others do not have - and that can, in fact, lead to arrest, torture, imprisonment and/or death elsewhere.  But trust me, friend - while we may never get to the torture or death parts, we are coming perilously close to seeing arrests and imprisonment for dissension right here in the good 'ole U.S. of A.  (Some would argue that it is already happening.)

Indeed, one could view the arrest and almost certain imprisonment of reporters Judy Miller and Scott Cooper as one of the first steps down this road.  In that case, it is freedom of the press that is being trampled on.  However, as noted elsewhere, when you have government officials stating that "people need to watch what they say," and calling dissension "unpatriotic," the time will not be long before you will begin seeing arrests for expressing our right to constitutionally protected free speech.  And don't be fooled: the "reasons" for those arrests will be stated otherwise - couched in terms of "national security" or other nebulous, bogus or trumped-up reasons.  But they will, in fact, be solely because people dare to speak out against Bush and his war-profiteering cronies, or the "establishment" in general.

Again, I agree that "freedom' is relative.  But wake up and smell the coffee: our freedoms and civil liberties are being eroded at an accelerated pace.  So you have two choices.  You can show willful ignorance and naivete in believing that it's not happening.  Or you can speak up and make sure that the freedoms that all those brave and good Americans died for in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI and WWII remain intact.  I need not point out that the second choice is the more "patriotic" of the two.

Peace.

gleam wrote: Tony R wrote: gleam wrote: Maani, Do me a favor and climb down off of your cross. The fact that you can sit here on this day and criticize your country is proof enough of it's freedoms. Personally, I feel like exercising my freedom to kick your ass, however I don't hit women. If the U.S. is so terrible, tell me why thousands of Cubans and Haitians risk shark infested waters to get here? Why are there eight million illegal Mexicans living here? Party pooper, your being much to easy on yourself. Bible thumping, limp wristed hipocrite is more appropriate. Have a happy fourth of July, scumbag. Gleam,I dont mind who I hit,if I am punishing bullies. Thousands of Cubans risk their lives to be in the USA because they do not know any better! You are typical of the red-neck,chauvinistic characture that is so often our image of American males. Maani is merely pointing out the obvious: Some people are more free than others...............lift your head above the sand bags and look around you. Assholes like you really make me want to crack heads...US military trained or otherwise! Peace. Off. !   Thanks Tony, As usual, your as erudite as ever. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could attract this much attention in real life... Cheers

Funny,I get the impression that you associate the image of (lay?) preacher with limp-wristed,tree-hugging hippydom! As ignorant a post I have seen my time on this forum-and you condemn me for lacking "learning" "Its" has no ' btw,it's is a contraction of "it is".

I can attract attention in "real life" too. You'd be surprised how many people pay attention when you knock some redneck doozy onto his smart-arse.

If you want to play at pissing up the wall,I'll take you on at anything,you ignorant grunt.

One of America's great "freedoms" is obviously to make a complete prick of yourself! Well done.

gdub411 wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: I'm a fanatic South Park fan ... Do you know the episode "I'm a little bit country"? not by name...why don't you tell us what happened?

I'm a Little Bit Country

Original air Date: 2003-04-09 In order to get out of school, the boys enter an anti-war demonstration. Not really knowing what they're protesting for, Mr. Garrison decides to teach the boys a lesson by making them write an essay about our founding fathers. Cartman, (being the lazy asshole that he is) says that studying is way too much for a nine-year-old to handle and decides to cook up a crazy scheme in order to get out of it. With a crashing boulder, and electrocution Cartman finally gets what he wants... a flash back.

The message of the episode is that the U.S. need warmongers as much as they need pacifists. They need politicians like Bush to protect their country, and the anti-war people to show the world that the U.S. are not only red neck bullies.

JrKASperov wrote: I find it hilarious some people are still too blind to see the blatantly obvious fact freedoms are taken away for no particular reason at a fast pace. Ironically opposite of what was fought for 60 years ago (yes, WWII). (I guess satan really does a good job at blinding.)

Actually they come and go. Take the Patriot Act. A policy which removed some of our freedoms out of hysteria and paranoia. Recently, congress has gone back to review over this and I have faith that many of these restrictions that were put in place due to 9/11 will be overturned. We can thank the dems for that too. While I am a republican, I still see the need of the democrats to balance things out. Neither side is right and the truth lies somewhere in between. That is but one example. Freedoms come and go and that is always how it will be. There is no such thing as a perfect government.

gdub411 wrote: JrKASperov wrote: I find it hilarious some people are still too blind to see the blatantly obvious fact freedoms are taken away for no particular reason at a fast pace. Ironically opposite of what was fought for 60 years ago (yes, WWII). (I guess satan really does a good job at blinding.) Actually they come and go. Take the Patriot Act. A policy which removed some of our freedoms out of hysteria and paranoia. Recently, congress has gone back to review over this and I have faith that many of these restrictions that were put in place due to 9/11 will be overturned. We can thank the dems for that too. While I am a republican, I still see the need of the democrats to balance things out. Neither side is right and the truth lies somewhere in between. That is but one example. Freedoms come and go and that is always how it will be. There is no such thing as a perfect government.

Which country are you talking about? Iraq,Iran,Saudi or some other progressive democracy???

Tony R, you beat me to it.

Bush is a Nay-Zee

Let's hear Cartman ...

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https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls

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Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: JrKASperov wrote: I find it hilarious some people are still too blind to see the blatantly obvious fact freedoms are taken away for no particular reason at a fast pace. Ironically opposite of what was fought for 60 years ago (yes, WWII). (I guess satan really does a good job at blinding.) Actually they come and go. Take the Patriot Act. A policy which removed some of our freedoms out of hysteria and paranoia. Recently, congress has gone back to review over this and I have faith that many of these restrictions that were put in place due to 9/11 will be overturned. We can thank the dems for that too. While I am a republican, I still see the need of the democrats to balance things out. Neither side is right and the truth lies somewhere in between. That is but one example. Freedoms come and go and that is always how it will be. There is no such thing as a perfect government.   Which country are you talking about? Iraq,Iran,Saudi or some other progressive democracy???

I'm talking about the US and I fail to see any humour in that statement.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Tony R, you beat me to it. Bush is a Nay-Zee Let's hear Cartman ...

For Gleam:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/downloads/display_sound.php?ep_number=701&ep_name=I'm%20a%20Little%20Bit%20Country&snd=http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/sounds/701/THISCOUNTRYWASFOUNDED.wav&snd_name=This%20country%20was%20founded%20on%20some%20of%20the%20greatests%20thinkers%20of%20all%20time - http://www.southparkstudios.com/downloads/display_sound.php? ep_number=701&ep_name=I'm%20a%20Little%20Bit%20Country&a mp;snd=http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/sounds/701/T HISCOUNTRYWASFOUNDED.wav&snd_name=This%20country%20was%2 0founded%20on%20some%20of%20the%20greatests%20thinkers%20of% 20all%20time .

gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: JrKASperov wrote: I find it hilarious some people are still too blind to see the blatantly obvious fact freedoms are taken away for no particular reason at a fast pace. Ironically opposite of what was fought for 60 years ago (yes, WWII). (I guess satan really does a good job at blinding.) Actually they come and go. Take the Patriot Act. A policy which removed some of our freedoms out of hysteria and paranoia. Recently, congress has gone back to review over this and I have faith that many of these restrictions that were put in place due to 9/11 will be overturned. We can thank the dems for that too. While I am a republican, I still see the need of the democrats to balance things out. Neither side is right and the truth lies somewhere in between. That is but one example. Freedoms come and go and that is always how it will be. There is no such thing as a perfect government.   Which country are you talking about? Iraq,Iran,Saudi or some other progressive democracy??? I'm talking about the US and I fail to see any humour in that statement.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/downloads/display_sound.php?ep_number=701&ep_name=I'm%20a%20Little%20Bit%20Country&snd=http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/sounds/701/FOREVERBLAMELESS.wav&snd_name=If%20we%20allow%20the%20people%20to%20protest%20what%20the%20government%20does - http://www.southparkstudios.com/downloads/display_sound.php? ep_number=701&ep_name=I'm%20a%20Little%20Bit%20Country&a mp;snd=http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/sounds/701/F OREVERBLAMELESS.wav&snd_name=If%20we%20allow%20the%20peo ple%20to%20protest%20what%20the%20government%20does ....

There's another cool episode:

Douche and Turd
Original air Date: 2004-10-27 When PETA demonstrates against the use of a cow as South Park Elementary’s mascot, the student body is forced to choose a new one. As the election approaches, Kyle tries to convince everyone that his candidate, a giant douche, is better than Cartman’s nominee, a turd sandwich.

Lets get out and vote! Let’s make our voices heard!

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https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls

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gdub411 wrote: Hokey Dokey. Realize that South Park is VERY tongue in cheek though.

Is it?

I thought it was the American version of our Open University.....

Screw you guys,I'm goin home!

gdub411 wrote: Hokey Dokey. Realize that South Park is VERY tongue in cheek though.

Many a true word spoken in jest!

MikeEnRegalia wrote: There's another cool episode: Douche and Turd Original air Date: 2004-10-27 When PETA demonstrates against the use of a cow as South Park Elementary’s mascot, the student body is forced to choose a new one. As the election approaches, Kyle tries to convince everyone that his candidate, a giant douche, is better than Cartman’s nominee, a turd sandwich. Lets get out and vote! Let’s make our voices heard!

The big,fat Turd obviously!

Okay.. back to the real 4th of July...

My cousin called to remind me I owed her some family pics of my Aunt Bessie who died in 1943 of TB. My Mom was the closest to her, so I have many of the pictures of her.. In scanning and cleaning them up, I found this very patriotic one that was taken around the Spring of 1937... just before the beginning of World War II... my Aunt is to the far right, gray suit, no coat.

gleam wrote: This is for our troops spending the fourth of July in Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere they proudly serve. HOORAH! Be careful and come home soon.

I know that is not the place for what i want to say, but don't forget that there is 100 000 innocents killed in Iraq during American occupation,and how many in Afghanistan..and everywhere they are occupying territories with they troups,they are  proudly serving not the people,but Bush.Don't be blinded by so called patriotism,just be conscient and be happy that these wars are thousand miles away from your  homes...

Happy 4th july.

Jim Garten wrote: You know, I never realised that "the rockets' red glare" referred to virtual missiles crossing this great community we have here.

Sorry,Jim.

But I hate bullies........

It is great to unite for the right causes, but let us not forget that some people here will never learn the lessons of history.

And some of us like to be schizophrenic.....

A nuclear worker I met from the firm Westinghouse once told me : "America: Land of the not-so-free".

He had been forced for a blood sample in Belgium to checking up on drugs , to which he was not agreeable since that kind of testing is illegal in Europe, but was forced to do it or else he would be fired for breaching of contract. This firm had no right to do that kind of test in a country that outlawed those tests (written in the constitution as a privacy protection law) and they could've waited about ten more days before he got back to US soil to test him.

Although the man was clean , so he says but he would not lie about this , he still refused , got fired but also has problem with the US internal affairs dept, so he chose to stay in the New America (he was referring to Bush's New Europe thing around the Irak thing). How's that for freedom!!!!

Gleam:

Maani's post was toughtful , thoughtprovoking and very " à propos". He was probably not entirely correct stating that the US was still the freest country on this planet!! That is a matter of opinion.

And your insult was the exact opposite of his post! Thoughtless, discouraging further self-opinion and completely "à coté du sujet".

America? Land of the free?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Are you free to do this without fear of persecution/prosecution?

http://photobucket.com/albums/v423/emdiar/?">

Gleam, you may think your flag waving patriotism is to be admired, but Maani seems to have it spot on. Unless you guys start accepting the painfull truth, your much loved freedom will be so compromised as to be unrecognisable.

If I sell $10 worth of skunk to an American in a coffee shop in Amsterdam, technically I could be extradited to the States for prosecution, even though no crime has taken place on Dutch or American soil. Luckily the Dutch think American foriegn policy is wack.

Spot on, Emdiar!!

Not respecting other countries is the first reason for American Empathy around the world. And not against America itself ,  but against Yankee Imperialism.

Sean infers an important point about the general worldview of the U.S.: most people in other countries can separate "U.S. socio-political policies" (what Sean calls "Yankee imperialism") and the government that creates and implements them, from the "people" of the U.S., who, to a large degree, are helpless to do much to change those policies.  Yes, plenty of Americans support those policies outright, and are pro-Bush, pro-war, etc.  But even in the face of a contested (if not stolen) election, 49% of the American people do not support much of what the Bush Administration stands for or is doing.

This was seen most amazingly when more than 30,000,000 people in over 20 cities in 10 countries protested against the then-planned invasion of Iraq.  Yet whenever anyone participating in those protests was interviewed - in England, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, Spain, etc. - they made it very clear that they opposed "Bush" and "American policy," and not "the American people."  It is instructive to note that this was the largest protest in history against a single person (though admittedly Blair and others were on the minds of the protestors as well).

I bet few of you remember what Bush said during one of the formal debates with Al Gore.  When asked about implementing foreign policy, Bush said: "If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us; if we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us."

Clearly, he abandoned that belief almost immediately upon becoming president, instead adopting an arrogant, self-righteous, bullying stance on almost every foreign policy issue - capped, of course, by the aggressive, unprovoked, pre-emptive invasion of Iraq on the basis of flimsy evidence (WMDs, ties between Hussein and bin Laden, etc.) that turned out to be as phony as a nine-dollar bill.  One cannot miss the irony - the almost Orwellian "newspeak" - of Bush's comment on Iraq; that since it is a hotbed of terrorism, we dare not leave now.  Yet it was not a hotbed of terrorism prior to the invasion.  Bush created a hotbed of terrorism by invading, and now claims we can't leave because it is a hotbed of terrorism.  Ponder that for a moment.

Yes, I love my country and what it used to stand for: the principles on which it was founded, the can-do spirit, the freedoms it provided.  But much of that is gone, replaced by a political mindset and government policies that fly in the face of those principles, that spirit, those freedoms.

Peace.

emdiar wrote: America? Land of the free?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you free to do this without fear of persecution/prosecution? http://photobucket.com/albums/v423/emdiar/?">

No.  I'd wish we could in Québec and Canada...

maani wrote: Sean infers an important point about the general worldview of the U.S.: most people in other countries can separate "U.S. socio-political policies" (what Sean calls "Yankee imperialism") and the government that creates and implements them, from the "people" of the U.S., who, to a large degree, are helpless to do much to change those policies.  Yes, plenty of Americans support those policies outright, and are pro-Bush, pro-war, etc.  But even in the face of a contested (if not stolen) election, 49% of the American people do not support much of what the Bush Administration stands for or is doing. This was seen most amazingly when more than 30,000,000 people in over 20 cities in 10 countries protested against the then-planned invasion of Iraq.  Yet whenever anyone participating in those protests was interviewed - in England, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, Spain, etc. - they made it very clear that they opposed "Bush" and "American policy," and not "the American people."  It is instructive to note that this was the largest protest in history against a single person (though admittedly Blair and others were on the minds of the protestors as well). I bet few of you remember what Bush said during one of the formal debates with Al Gore.  When asked about implementing foreign policy, Bush said: "If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us; if we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us." Clearly, he abandoned that belief almost immediately upon becoming president, instead adopting an arrogant, self-righteous, bullying stance on almost every foreign policy issue - capped, of course, by the aggressive, unprovoked, pre-emptive invasion of Iraq on the basis of flimsy evidence (WMDs, ties between Hussein and bin Laden, etc.) that turned out to be as phony as a nine-dollar bill.  One cannot miss the irony - the almost Orwellian "newspeak" - of Bush's comment on Iraq; that since it is a hotbed of terrorism, we dare not leave now.  Yet it was not a hotbed of terrorism prior to the invasion.  Bush created a hotbed of terrorism by invading, and now claims we can't leave because it is a hotbed of terrorism.  Ponder that for a moment. Yes, I love my country and what it used to stand for: the principles on which it was founded, the can-do spirit, the freedoms it provided.  But much of that is gone, replaced by a political mindset and government policies that fly in the face of those principles, that spirit, those freedoms. Peace.

I can confirm a part of your post, Maani: I took part in many of the demonstrations here in Spain (the most important of them involving 1.5 million people in Madrid) and I didn't hear a single anti-american slogan. Mr Bush and our former President Aznar, however...

[/QUOTE]

I know that is not the place for what i want to say, but don't forget that there is 100 000 innocents killed in Iraq during American occupation,and how many in Afghanistan..and everywhere they are occupying territories with they troups,they are  proudly serving not the people,but Bush.Don't be blinded by so called patriotism,just be conscient and be happy that these wars are thousand miles away from your  homes...

Happy 4th july.

[/QUOTE]

O.k.  I can't help but want to get involved in this discussion.  First off, let me say that unlike how many people in this country feel, it is indeed possible to love your country and not always agree with the policies of those in power in your country.  It is unfortunate that many people equate patriotism with blind agreement to whatever those in power do.  Love of country and patriotism should involve each and every person doing his or her part, in the voting booth and beyond, to make this country a better place to live.  Now of course there will be disagreement as to what course of action will make this a better place to live.  Conservatives see it one way.  Liberals see it another, and I (Libertarian) see it yet another way.  The ultimate truth is most likely somewhere in between these three and other points of view.  Unfortunately, I think a two-party system precludes the kind of open debate and compromise that is needed to come to a beneficial outcome on the majority of issues facing our country. 

I would disagree that we are the freest country in the world.  But a totally free society, and yes this is coming from a Libertarian, would be anarchy.  I believe in some ways, as a society, we are much too free.  The freedom, for example, to have multiple children, when such persons cannot afford to have children, and frequently abuse or neglect their children, seems to me a freedom that could be curbed more than it is.  The rights of birth parents over their children in spite of repeated instances of abuse and neglect should be eliminated.  On the other hand, freedom of speech seems to be eroding in our society and that is a freedom which in my opinion is the cornerstone of all other freedoms.  Freedom against the intrusion of religion into the law is something this country really needs to reinforce, in terms of blue laws, prayer in schools, and so on. 

Now, as to the quote above.  I must say that while there are probably many innocents who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm not sure where you got the number 100,000.  Anyway, that is irrelevant.  First, many of the so-called "innocents" who have been killed over there were people who were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11, the victims of which were truly innocent.  I know this will make me sound very America-centric, and I probably am, but I have a hard time feeling truly sorry for the people in those countries.  Is Bush using this war for his own personal glory as opposed to doing it in the interests of America?  Absolutely.  Would the resources being consumed by this war be better spent helping the impoverished in our nation and contributing toward the education of our children?  Without a doubt.  Should we be over there at all?  Of course not.  But do I feel sorry for them?  Nope.  Can't bring myself to do that.  The best way to end terrorism in the U.S. is not to attack Middle Eastern countries, but to close our borders to people from those countries.  If they aren't here, they can't fly planes into our buildings.

The Doctor wrote: Now, as to the quote above.  I must say that while there are probably many innocents who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm not sure where you got the number 100,000.  Anyway, that is irrelevant.  First, many of the so-called "innocents" who have been killed over there were people who were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11, the victims of which were truly innocent.  I know this will make me sound very America-centric, and I probably am, but I have a hard time feeling truly sorry for the people in those countries.  Is Bush using this war for his own personal glory as opposed to doing it in the interests of America?  Absolutely.  Would the resources being consumed by this war be better spent helping the impoverished in our nation and contributing toward the education of our children?  Without a doubt.  Should we be over there at all?  Of course not.  But do I feel sorry for them?  Nope.  Can't bring myself to do that.  The best way to end terrorism in the U.S. is not to attack Middle Eastern countries, but to close our borders to people from those countries.  If they aren't here, they can't fly planes into our buildings.

The 100,000 number comes from a study done by The Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal. There are big differences in the civilian casualties reports according to different sources, but the most serious study gives a number close to 25,000 (for a few references see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm ).

OK, so that's irrelevant, because many of them were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11... Shame on you, man. How many? Which percentage will it make irrelevant the dead of the rest of them? No, truly, there has to be something wrong with you...

nacho wrote: The Doctor wrote: Now, as to the quote above.  I must say that while there are probably many innocents who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm not sure where you got the number 100,000.  Anyway, that is irrelevant.  First, many of the so-called "innocents" who have been killed over there were people who were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11, the victims of which were truly innocent.  I know this will make me sound very America-centric, and I probably am, but I have a hard time feeling truly sorry for the people in those countries.  Is Bush using this war for his own personal glory as opposed to doing it in the interests of America?  Absolutely.  Would the resources being consumed by this war be better spent helping the impoverished in our nation and contributing toward the education of our children?  Without a doubt.  Should we be over there at all?  Of course not.  But do I feel sorry for them?  Nope.  Can't bring myself to do that.  The best way to end terrorism in the U.S. is not to attack Middle Eastern countries, but to close our borders to people from those countries.  If they aren't here, they can't fly planes into our buildings. The 100,000 number comes from a study done by The Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal. There are big differences in the civilian casualties reports according to different sources, but the most serious study gives a number close to 25,000 (for a few references see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm ). OK, so that's irrelevant, because many of them were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11... Shame on you, man. How many? Which percentage will it make irrelevant the dead of the rest of them?  No, truly, there has to be something wrong with you...

To be honest, I pretty much think all of them would just as soon kill Americans as to co-exist peacefully with us.  That doesn't mean I celebrate their deaths.  I just can't feel sorry for them.

The Doctor wrote: nacho wrote: The Doctor wrote: Now, as to the quote above.  I must say that while there are probably many innocents who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm not sure where you got the number 100,000.  Anyway, that is irrelevant.  First, many of the so-called "innocents" who have been killed over there were people who were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11, the victims of which were truly innocent.  I know this will make me sound very America-centric, and I probably am, but I have a hard time feeling truly sorry for the people in those countries.  Is Bush using this war for his own personal glory as opposed to doing it in the interests of America?  Absolutely.  Would the resources being consumed by this war be better spent helping the impoverished in our nation and contributing toward the education of our children?  Without a doubt.  Should we be over there at all?  Of course not.  But do I feel sorry for them?  Nope.  Can't bring myself to do that.  The best way to end terrorism in the U.S. is not to attack Middle Eastern countries, but to close our borders to people from those countries.  If they aren't here, they can't fly planes into our buildings. The 100,000 number comes from a study done by The Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal. There are big differences in the civilian casualties reports according to different sources, but the most serious study gives a number close to 25,000 (for a few references see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3672298.stm ). OK, so that's irrelevant, because many of them were celebrating the tragedy of 9/11... Shame on you, man. How many? Which percentage will it make irrelevant the dead of the rest of them?  No, truly, there has to be something wrong with you... To be honest, I pretty much think all of them would just as soon kill Americans as to co-exist peacefully with us.  That doesn't mean I celebrate their deaths.  I just can't feel sorry for them.

OK, that seems like a comfortable way of thinking for you: if it's close to 100% then there's no need to feel sorry for them... It must be something that is coming wrong to my memory but, didn't we see in your TV channels hundreds, no, thousands of Iraqi people welcoming the American soldiers and celebrating the fall of the tyrant? Was that a lie or your number is not close to 100%?

Keep on thinking and maybe you start to be able to feel sorry for them (probably most of them deserve it).

Borealis wrote: emdiar wrote: America? Land of the free?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you free to do this without fear of persecution/prosecution? http://photobucket.com/albums/v423/emdiar/?"> No.  I'd wish we could in Québec and Canada...

What...stand behind a plant? Sure....we can do that...

gdub411 wrote: Borealis wrote: emdiar wrote: America? Land of the free?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you free to do this without fear of persecution/prosecution? http://photobucket.com/albums/v423/emdiar/?"> No.  I'd wish we could in Québec and Canada...   What...stand behind a plant? Sure....we can do that...

I'm still wondering what can be wrong with spinachs in the USA...

nacho wrote: gdub411 wrote: Borealis wrote: emdiar wrote: America? Land of the free?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you free to do this without fear of persecution/prosecution? http://photobucket.com/albums/v423/emdiar/?"> No.  I'd wish we could in Québec and Canada...   What...stand behind a plant? Sure....we can do that... I'm still wondering what can be wrong with spinachs in the USA...

the problem with american spinach is that it's green

Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people.

NATIONALISM SUCKS

Why celebrate the fourth of July?

Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July?

It's an excuse for having a day off from work...that's good enough for me.

Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July?

Why don't we all just celebrate april 30th

we can all dress up in orange clothing and have a massive folkfest

tuxon wrote: Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July? Why don't we all just celebrate april 30th we can all dress up in orange clothing and have a massive folkfest

Is that queen's day or something? (I wouldn't know)

gdub411 wrote: Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July? It's an excuse for having a day off from work...that's good enough for me.

I'd rather work than celebrate the fourth of July

Joren wrote: gdub411 wrote: Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July? It's an excuse for having a day off from work...that's good enough for me. I'd rather work than celebrate the fourth of July

There are very few phrases that I would put "I'd rather work than" in front of.  Perhaps "I'd rather work than have ice picks shoved into my eyes." But few others.

Joren wrote: gdub411 wrote: Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July? It's an excuse for having a day off from work...that's good enough for me. I'd rather work than celebrate the fourth of July

Joren...quite seriously...your anti-american rhetoric has become quite bothersome. I don't bad mouth your country, so show the same respect.

gdub411 wrote: Joren wrote: gdub411 wrote: Joren wrote: Maybe we should burn all flags, the symbol of all the bad things a "nation" can bring up in people. NATIONALISM SUCKS Why celebrate the fourth of July? It's an excuse for having a day off from work...that's good enough for me. I'd rather work than celebrate the fourth of July Joren...quite seriously...your anti-american rhetoric has become quite bothersome. I don't bad mouth your country, so show the same respect.

Or my favorite phrase in this circumstance..."I don't come down to where you work and slap the d--k out of your mouth"

I guess I'm a sucker (according to the Dutch douches on this site) but that image still creates intense emotions in me.  Wow, happy belated b-day America.

Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity.

emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity.

oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart

let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms.

NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms.

Bollocks.

Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe....

JrKASperov wrote: gdub411 wrote: Joren...quite seriously...your anti-american rhetoric has become quite bothersome. I don't bad mouth your country, so show the same respect. Your false argumentation makes me laugh. Joren doesn't care if you would bad-mouth his country, maybe agree with a lot of the things you have critique about. Try the same with you, and you'll call us bothersome.

I know Joren wasn't really bad mouthing america. I am quite aware he was referring to nationism and why celebrate it. I was going to correct it, but I was too lazy to bother. I still find it annoying. Him saying he would rather work is just silly. I get 8 holidays in a year and I am glad to have the day off is all I was saying. I didn't attend any fire work displays. I ended up staying home and talking to your sorry asses all day. What few extra days I can get away from work is well appreciated. Perhaps he just doesn't work 50+ hours/week to understand how nice it is when there is a reprieve from the mundane. because of that he was bothersome and I needed to swat him like the annoying bug he was yesterday.

Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe....

I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war.

gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war.

Not at all.Merely replying to thr previous inaccurate post....

gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war.

I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious!

My view without the US...Russia drives the Germans back to the Dneiper River( I think that is what it is called), the Germans dig in and stop the Russian advance, because Germany is still able to commit many of its airplanes to the Eastern front since the USA will not be adding their airforce to the English which in turn means the strategic bombing campaign is far less successful.

The war becomes deadlocked with neither side gaining any new ground. Eventually Hitler dies and Germany sues for peace.

gdub411 wrote: My view without the US...Russia drives the Germans back to the Dneiper River( I think that is what it is called), the Germans dig in and stop the Russian advance, because Germany is still able to commit many of its airplanes to the Eastern front since the USA will not be adding their airforce to the English which in turn means the strategic bombing campaign is far less successful. The war becomes deadlocked with neither side gaining any new ground. Eventually Hitler dies and Germany sues for peace.

Hmmmmm......maybe!

Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war. I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious!

I am far too much of a history buff and I know better. Both the British and Russians were ass kickers. I have always admired Great Britain's feats in WWII. Not ALL Americans feel that way. Although, I may tell you that to rile you up at some future time.

PS...what the Germans did was absolutely incredible on a military standpoint alone.

gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war. I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious! I am far too much of a history buff and I know better. Both the British and Russians were ass kickers. I have always admired Great Britain's feats in WWII. Not ALL Americans feel that way. Although, I may tell you that to rile you up at some future time. PS...what the Germans did was absolutely incredible on a military standpoint alone.

No doubt, the German Army were Tops! If it hadn't been for the RAF Britain would have been virtually defenceless and America would have been too late for us!

Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war. I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious! I am far too much of a history buff and I know better. Both the British and Russians were ass kickers. I have always admired Great Britain's feats in WWII. Not ALL Americans feel that way. Although, I may tell you that to rile you up at some future time. PS...what the Germans did was absolutely incredible on a military standpoint alone. No doubt, the German Army were Tops! If it hadn't been for the RAF Britain would have been virtually defenceless and America would have been too late for us!

Yes the RAF was very key in the Battle of Britain. To actually conquer you guys, though, I think Germany would have had to land its forces on that island of yours and that would have proven most difficult with that enormous navy of yours.

I wonder how the Germans would have fared if they would have concentrated on bombing military installations instead of civilian targets....

In 1939-1940 the US army was a joke. While it was discusting that we didn't lend a hand until we were virtually forced to, I doubt we would have been much help militarily until 1942 anyhoo.

^

Next week Laurel and Hardy,above,discuss Astrophysics and the Big Bang......

The discussion would go something like this:

GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang:

1. It was big !
2. It went "bang!" "

Snow Dog : "Yes Gdub it certainly was a big bang in an astrophysical kind of way!"

Tony R wrote:     GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang: 1. It was big ! 2. It went "bang!" "

You got that right.

Tony is just upset he didn't have anything intelligent to add to our conversation.

gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote:     GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang: 1. It was big ! 2. It went "bang!" " You got that right. Tony is just upset he didn't have anything intelligent to add to our conversation.

Well I think you two managed to encompass 6 years of military theory in just a few glib sentences,so well done.

Snow Dog's gone to bed, Mrs Dog has borrowed the family braincell to do the ironing....

Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe....

While you did it in one...

gdub411 wrote: While you did it in one...

What guessed the mystery song?

gdub411 wrote: JrKASperov wrote: gdub411 wrote: Joren...quite seriously...your anti-american rhetoric has become quite bothersome. I don't bad mouth your country, so show the same respect. Your false argumentation makes me laugh. Joren doesn't care if you would bad-mouth his country, maybe agree with a lot of the things you have critique about. Try the same with you, and you'll call us bothersome. I know Joren wasn't really bad mouthing america. I am quite aware he was referring to nationism and why celebrate it. I was going to correct it, but I was too lazy to bother. I still find it annoying. Him saying he would rather work is just silly. I get 8 holidays in a year and I am glad to have the day off is all I was saying. I didn't attend any fire work displays. I ended up staying home and talking to your sorry asses all day. What few extra days I can get away from work is well appreciated. Perhaps he just doesn't work 50+ hours/week to understand how nice it is when there is a reprieve from the mundane. because of that he was bothersome and I needed to swat him like the annoying bug he was yesterday.

You got me mad there for a while, but I'm glad in the end you noticed that I'm not just bad mouthing America  (thanks for the support, JrK ). It's just that I am against nationalism and patriotism and you'll have to admit that American people have a more patriostic attitude than people in the Netherlands. That doesn't mean I thnk the US suck or anything. I would love to go there once. I just don't like certain suspects of the US which I feel very strongly about. The Netherlands are not an ideal country either and I WOULD NEVER say that a certain people suck, because I hate racism even more than nationalism! (Just to to make sure that that's clear!)

Joren

P.S. I apologize for ruining your free day
P.S.2 If my typing and grammar suck: I'm a bit tired

Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote:     GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang: 1. It was big ! 2. It went "bang!" " You got that right. Tony is just upset he didn't have anything intelligent to add to our conversation. Well I think you two managed to encompass 6 years of military theory in just a few glib sentences,so well done. Snow Dog's gone to bed, Mrs Dog has borrowed the family braincell to do the ironing....

1.If it was Big it was your head

2.If it went "bang" you had a thought!

I see that you,ve abandoned humour Tony and decided that insults are enough!

Snow Dog wrote: Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote:     GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang: 1. It was big ! 2. It went "bang!" " You got that right. Tony is just upset he didn't have anything intelligent to add to our conversation. Well I think you two managed to encompass 6 years of military theory in just a few glib sentences,so well done. Snow Dog's gone to bed, Mrs Dog has borrowed the family braincell to do the ironing.... 1.If it was Big it was your head 2.If it went "bang" you had a thought!     I see that you,ve abandoned humour Tony and decided that insults are enough!

If in doubt,throw insults about..........

Tony R wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote:     GDUB: "Two things you should know about the Big Bang: 1. It was big ! 2. It went "bang!" " You got that right. Tony is just upset he didn't have anything intelligent to add to our conversation. Well I think you two managed to encompass 6 years of military theory in just a few glib sentences,so well done. Snow Dog's gone to bed, Mrs Dog has borrowed the family braincell to do the ironing.... 1.If it was Big it was your head 2.If it went "bang" you had a thought!     I see that you,ve abandoned humour Tony and decided that insults are enough! If in doubt,throw insults about..........

Alright then. You're a c**t!

Snow Dog wrote: Alright then. You're a c**t!

Snowy! Think about your rating-Wednesday is voting day.........

Jim Garten wrote: Easy, now - he only called you a clot.

You're wrong: he called him a celt !!!

gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war. I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious! I am far too much of a history buff and I know better. Both the British and Russians were ass kickers. I have always admired Great Britain's feats in WWII. Not ALL Americans feel that way. Although, I may tell you that to rile you up at some future time. PS...what the Germans did was absolutely incredible on a military standpoint alone. No doubt, the German Army were Tops! If it hadn't been for the RAF Britain would have been virtually defenceless and America would have been too late for us! Yes the RAF was very key in the Battle of Britain. To actually conquer you guys, though, I think Germany would have had to land its forces on that island of yours and that would have proven most difficult with that enormous navy of yours. I wonder how the Germans would have fared if they would have concentrated on bombing military installations instead of civilian targets.... In 1939-1940 the US army was a joke. While it was discusting that we didn't lend a hand until we were virtually forced to, I doubt we would have been much help militarily until 1942 anyhoo.

hey!  who supplied youre military machine?  who built your planes?  America.

and I acknowledge that Russia pretty much did most of the work.  but Europe really forgets how much America did for them, during the war, in terms of aid and eventual war, and plus we rebuilt Europe after the war.

Churchill was more concerned about keeping his empire than beatign Germany and you know it!

goose wrote: Britain is the best country in the world. Anyone who says otherwise is foreign or wrong. Fact.

 Hey they at least have the best television programming in the world.

NetsNJFan wrote: gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: gdub411 wrote: Tony R wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: emdiar wrote: Could someone please name one freedom that Americans have, that is denied us Brits. We can even smoke Cuban cigars with impunity. oh, now the British are all for freedom and liberty after their oppressive empire falls apart let's not forget England would be a German Territory if America hadn't kept you in the war, so enjoy your freedoms. Bollocks. Germany and France might have been Russian Territory,maybe.... I find it amusing how you Euro's downplay the United States role in the war. I find it amusing that Americans not only downplay the Soviet Unions and Britains role in the war, but also believe that they aloone won it! Hilarious! I am far too much of a history buff and I know better. Both the British and Russians were ass kickers. I have always admired Great Britain's feats in WWII. Not ALL Americans feel that way. Although, I may tell you that to rile you up at some future time. PS...what the Germans did was absolutely incredible on a military standpoint alone. No doubt, the German Army were Tops! If it hadn't been for the RAF Britain would have been virtually defenceless and America would have been too late for us! Yes the RAF was very key in the Battle of Britain. To actually conquer you guys, though, I think Germany would have had to land its forces on that island of yours and that would have proven most difficult with that enormous navy of yours. I wonder how the Germans would have fared if they would have concentrated on bombing military installations instead of civilian targets.... In 1939-1940 the US army was a joke. While it was discusting that we didn't lend a hand until we were virtually forced to, I doubt we would have been much help militarily until 1942 anyhoo.   hey!  who supplied youre military machine?  who built your planes?  America. and I acknowledge that Russia pretty much did most of the work.  but Europe really forgets how much America did for them, during the war, in terms of aid and eventual war, and plus we rebuilt Europe after the war. Churchill was more concerned about keeping his empire than beatign Germany and you know it!

America built our planes?? Thats news to me. Anyway the Battle of Britain was before American invlovment. You.re comment  about Churchill, where do you get this sh*t from?

NetsNJFan wrote: hey!  who supplied youre military machine?  who built your planes?  America. and I acknowledge that Russia pretty much did most of the work.  but Europe really forgets how much America did for them, during the war, in terms of aid and eventual war, and plus we rebuilt Europe after the war. Churchill was more concerned about keeping his empire than beatign Germany and you know it!

Let me straighten that out: The Europeans rebuilt Europe after the war. The U.S. invested in Germany big time and made a fortune out of our hard work.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: NetsNJFan wrote: hey!  who supplied youre military machine?  who built your planes?  America. and I acknowledge that Russia pretty much did most of the work.  but Europe really forgets how much America did for them, during the war, in terms of aid and eventual war, and plus we rebuilt Europe after the war. Churchill was more concerned about keeping his empire than beatign Germany and you know it! Let me straighten that out: The Europeans rebuilt Europe after the war. The U.S. invested in Germany big time and made a fortune out of our hard work.

fine pretend the Marshall Plan didn't mean anything.