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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() Posted: May 29 2010 at 03:47 |
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For me epic's need to have a sense of drama: (tension and release) that affects me on an emotional level, which is why constructing one by numbers or formula doesn't always work and why overly long can be an epic fail. PFM had that knack of creating short epics. Daniel Gildenlöw (Pain Of Salvation) can create big epics by writing short connected mini epics (typified by the triptic-structured albums)
Edited by Dean - May 29 2010 at 03:47 |
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What?
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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octopus-4 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14514 |
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....and long life to Magma
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14514 |
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Many interesting things in this post.
Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Nine Feet underground, Lady Fantasy, Ashes are Burning, Sheherazade. They have something in common: the various different part have no solution of continuity. They fade one into the other preserving the concept (or just the mood in those instrumental only). All those epic can be listened to more than one time without getting bored. Last, all of them have important bass sections in their middle: the blues section of Echoes, the funky section on Atom, the solo on the live version of Ashes are burning, the part when the bass doubles the drums tempo on Nine feet underground.... think to this. Note that I include Lady Fantasy into the epics, even if 14 minutes only.
Amarok is more similar to Krautrock. Think to Edgar Froese's Aqua. It's a long track but not an epic. Most of TD stuff is like that. Oldfield's stuff in general lacks of continuity. Tubular bells itself is a patchwork of songs.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18025 |
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It is ... and I was going to extend this some ... it's like this .. so you get it on with your significant other and last night you both had ... a lot of fun ... and it was epic! And it lasted all night and is the reason why you think of it as "epic" ... and then someone else had the same experience and it lasted 15 minutes and both people fell in love all over again. So this one is not epic?
It's a serious issue, the definition of the term.
From the classical references be they literature, music or any art ... El Greco, for example is Epic when you see that thing 10/15 feet tall in Chicago. But another El Greco that is just 2 feet by 2 feet might not be considered epic because of its size!
In general, I do not use such terms when describing music or literature or art. I try to stay with my feelings inside and I can word them fairly well. The main concern being that someone does a 20 minute piece and simply because an organ explodes with a guitar solo over it does not mean that is is "epic" any more than you and I describing it. It also doesn't mean that El Greco in Chicago is "epic" because that thing is huge and it blasts you! (I can't even remember if it is El Greco or not all of a sudden - Chicago Art Institute).
I do, however, a lot, associate "progressive music" with the arts a lot more than most folks here. And I do so on purpose. Why? ... because some of these works are as good if not better than a lot of things that we consider "epic" in the history of music. And while not all of them are one person composing, the combination, still, is something very special, and this is what made history in music for thousands of years and this is the new year in that history ... that simple! And it doesn't matter to me if the band or group of folks is from Podunk, North Dakota, or Italy, or London ... if it has the strength to stand up and play and be who they are ... it is already "epic" ... and that is a lot more value to the artist than the cohort kissing of the famous that goes on in many places! And that includes Yes, Genesis, KC, ELP and many others! Edited by moshkito - May 28 2010 at 16:04 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18025 |
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Are you kidding me?
It's his best and most fun work! And the most experimental of them all and creative.
With one exception ... because we can't find a "concept" or "order" of things in the music ... we can't call it Epic ... and it is Epic and a heck of a fun trip! Unffortunately it is something for trippers and not prog listeners! I said once (I'm a bad boy!) that someone wouldn't know "prog" if it hit them in the face! Or someone told them!
So, subtract the terms, and just sit once and listen to it from start to end. And notice that the convulsions that you are having is the fault of your comparisons to other things that you like. Now subtract that part ... what have you got left?
Yeah!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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AtomicCrimsonRush ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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My Review for Magma happens to be my favourite
From Progarchives.com, the ultimate progressive rock music website
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progkidjoel ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: March 02 2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 19643 |
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Man that's an awesome analogy ![]() |
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AtomicCrimsonRush ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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You cant forget such classics
there is a thread about this somewhere with the all time great epics
thats the best place to go
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rod65 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 28 2010 Status: Offline Points: 248 |
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The term "epic" is a little problematic. I hate to say this as it traps me in a logical contradiction: I love prog epics but cannot actually define them. I agree with Moshkito that the term tends to be an after-the-fact imposition, and might add that as such, it says more about the listener than it does about the musician. I also am with Gerinski in concern over possible mix-ups where literary and musical definitions of "epic" are concerned. I do think mood is important, and broadly speaking this is the case with literary epics as well. One of the main impressions I get from reading epics both ancient and medieval is the sense that the ideas concerned are bigger than any individual involved in either the production or the reception of the text. I think that this is also the case, ideally, with prog epics: they are big not just in terms of length but also in terms of content. This is the case as well, I think, with the classical symphonies that stand behind the prog epics: the composers are dealing with ideas that, at least in the moment of composition, transcend their own mere individuality. Listen to Beethoven's 9th or Shostakovich's 7th to get what I mean here. This is not to say that they cannot appeal to our individuality. Experience--individual experience and history--are inalienable from our experience of art--but I think a good epic provides us with an experience that is at once universally human and intensely particular.
"I never wanted this: left alive and laid to rest." - IQ: "The Narrow Margin." The epic from Subterranea.
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Falx ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 05 2010 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 859 |
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MAGMAAAAA! ![]() |
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"You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor
"It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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Maybe this is a wrong perception caused by the literary origin of the term "epic", but I have a feeling that certain atmospheres are necessary as well for a musical theme to be considered an epic.
It should convey some sense of adventure, or journey, sound mythical, majestic... I don't know.
Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 60 minutes long and yet I do not perceive it as an epic. Do you?
Edited by Gerinski - May 27 2010 at 23:54 |
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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Such "structure" can indeed deliberately follow pre-defined formalism, but not necessarily.
This is the wonder of brilliant artists, they may just improvise out of inspiration and miraculously the end result somehow happens to have its own meaning and consistency, structure may have just emerged by itself.
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caravan9 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: May 26 2010 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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As a new member I would suggest listening to many the of greatest bands in the long history of progressive music. Banco del Mutuo Soccorso, Arti Mesteiri especially Furio Chircio on drums, PFM, Return to Forever's "Romantic Warrior", Talk Talks "the Color of Spring", Joseph Bonner "Impressions of Copenhagen", Split Enz "Time and Tide", "Mental Notes", Paul Winter "Icarus", (acoustic brilliance), Renaissance "Novella", Curved Air "Second Album", Note: I saw them open for Tull in 1972, Monkmans "Piece of Mind" is a great constructed piece of music. 3 curtain calls in Baltimore. The only problem I have with so called prog heads is that they seem to be stuck in neutral with comments like the "best ever concept album" ex: Yes, Pink Floyd, etc. In the 70's I witnessed virtually every progressive rock, jazz fusion, band that appeared in the Baltimore, Washington region. My final thoughts consist of dismissing metal prog as pedestrian songwriting , screeching vocals,power chords and pounding drum kits being played every hour of the day on classic rock stations.
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Nakatira ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: July 31 2005 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 178 |
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For me many factors play a part in liking an album, perhaps even more when it comes to a concept album.
But very few albums are as rewarding as a good concept album.
For me the best concept album is Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, it has that magical flow, Passion play is a great album but misses that flow IMO.
There are lots of other great ones but imo they dont match TAAB.
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18025 |
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In general this has merit and is the classical definition of "music" ... it ends up having a structure of some sort.
The concern I have is this ... the idea is "after the fact" and who is to say that Stravinsky did not do pretty much the same thing that CAN did in Tago Mago ... cut and paste ... cut and paste ... and develop a completely new ... "something" ... that we now might consider a "concept" or "idea". (Can being the best visible example of this, btw).
An "idea", or "concept" usually takes away the freedom to ... add/change ... something into something else, and is the very basic'est process in experimentation and improvisation ... to learn what else can be done and where does it go, and where can we take it. And therefore, this is the main reason why I don't really like formulaic music ... it doesn't take me anywhere that I have not been to before, whereas the unpredictable one that took a left turn in Albuquerque and ended up in Mars ... and you and I went ... WOW! ... far out!
An "epic" is a term that is coined after the fact ... and usually means that we are associating it with something that we might have known before that was big, or bigger than us (or life) ... that is still appreciated today -- let's say ... and while the idea is nice, the folks themselves that created might not think of it as Epic at all ... we don't look at Meatloaf's opus as Epic, and it is ... we don't look at In a Gadda Da Vida as Epic and it is ... we don't look the Marylin Memorial Church thing as Epic and it is ... we don't look at Ode to Perfume as Epic and it is ... which means we're being choosy! ... and that is NOT epic at all! And sometimes things were done specifically to dismantle the definition! ... ie CAN. Edited by moshkito - May 26 2010 at 19:34 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18025 |
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I so ... love this.
And you know how I talk about the music with such passion! I "live" inside that music ... not around it!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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How about desert?
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Progosopher ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6472 |
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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sirfragalot86 ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2010 Location: PA Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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For me what makes good epic is something that is unique the whole way through. I think an epic should go through changes all throughout the song without losing the original focus of the song. It also has to have emotions to it, I need to feel like the reason and point behind this song.
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