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Joren 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 6667
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 Topic: Magma?
Posted: October 01 2005 at 15:58 |
 Syzygy wrote:
Joren wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Kobaian was developed by Christian Vander and Klaus Blasquiz, at least partly because the French language wasn't suitable for the kind of vocal sound Vander had in mind. The invented language was intended to sound German/Slavonic, hence the large number of hard consonants.
According to Chris Cutler, Christian and Klaus occasionally conversed in Kobaian but the language was rather limited - many ways to say 'Die, accursed race of Earthmen!' but now way to say 'Would you like a coffee?'.
Other bands to do something similar -
Can with Damo Suzuki, who sang in a mixture of English, Japanese, German and gibberish. He referred to it as the language of the stone age.
Sigur Ros sing in Hopelandic.
Ruins sing in a made up tongue of their own invention.
The Cocteau Twins had their own bizarre language as well - in The Crow Road by Iain Banks the central character knows he's stoned when he can understand what Liz Fraser is singing.
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Koenjihyakkei have their own language as well, right? 
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Koenji Hyakkei are a kind of sister band to Ruins (both are led by drummer/composer Yoshida Tatsuya) and as far as I can work out they both use the same language.
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Ah! thanks for the info 
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Hamatai
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 05 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 57
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 15:57 |
OldFatherThames wrote:
I reverse the question...what do you like
about it ? I just find it to be a stupid idea to speak in a non
sense langage. Why ?? Is it bring something to the music ? Like someone
said before, it's like a science fiction concept, and I absolutely hate
science fiction ! |
If you think, that they really "sing" something senseful on "Kobaian",
you are mistaken. Vander has once said, that he wants his music to be
unambiguous. And lyrics, in traditional sense, are ambiguous. When I
say "sky", everyone imagines his own sky. When the song is called "Love
bites", for example, everyone remembers his former love, that made some
hurt. But if the song is called "Kohntarkosz", you can't imagine,
what's this song about.
The main thing about Magma's singing is not what they sing, but how they sing. That does matter.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 14:56 |
Syzygy wrote:
Joren wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Kobaian was developed by Christian Vander and Klaus Blasquiz, at least partly because the French language wasn't suitable for the kind of vocal sound Vander had in mind. The invented language was intended to sound German/Slavonic, hence the large number of hard consonants.
According to Chris Cutler, Christian and Klaus occasionally conversed in Kobaian but the language was rather limited - many ways to say 'Die, accursed race of Earthmen!' but now way to say 'Would you like a coffee?'.
Other bands to do something similar -
Can with Damo Suzuki, who sang in a mixture of English, Japanese, German and gibberish. He referred to it as the language of the stone age.
Sigur Ros sing in Hopelandic.
Ruins sing in a made up tongue of their own invention.
The Cocteau Twins had their own bizarre language as well - in The Crow Road by Iain Banks the central character knows he's stoned when he can understand what Liz Fraser is singing.
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Koenjihyakkei have their own language as well, right?
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Koenji Hyakkei are a kind of sister band to Ruins (both are led by drummer/composer Yoshida Tatsuya) and as far as I can work out they both use the same language.
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Sausagey,what is it with you and gibberish?
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 14:51 |
Joren wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Kobaian was developed by Christian Vander and Klaus Blasquiz, at least partly because the French language wasn't suitable for the kind of vocal sound Vander had in mind. The invented language was intended to sound German/Slavonic, hence the large number of hard consonants.
According to Chris Cutler, Christian and Klaus occasionally conversed in Kobaian but the language was rather limited - many ways to say 'Die, accursed race of Earthmen!' but now way to say 'Would you like a coffee?'.
Other bands to do something similar -
Can with Damo Suzuki, who sang in a mixture of English, Japanese, German and gibberish. He referred to it as the language of the stone age.
Sigur Ros sing in Hopelandic.
Ruins sing in a made up tongue of their own invention.
The Cocteau Twins had their own bizarre language as well - in The Crow Road by Iain Banks the central character knows he's stoned when he can understand what Liz Fraser is singing.
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Koenjihyakkei have their own language as well, right?
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Koenji Hyakkei are a kind of sister band to Ruins (both are led by drummer/composer Yoshida Tatsuya) and as far as I can work out they both use the same language.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Winterkaelte
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 14
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 09:06 |
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I think Magma are brilliant, i found MDK a little bit hard to grasp at first though.
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-Lee Arkley
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Joren
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 6667
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 08:40 |
Syzygy wrote:
Kobaian was developed by Christian Vander and Klaus Blasquiz, at least partly because the French language wasn't suitable for the kind of vocal sound Vander had in mind. The invented language was intended to sound German/Slavonic, hence the large number of hard consonants.
According to Chris Cutler, Christian and Klaus occasionally conversed in Kobaian but the language was rather limited - many ways to say 'Die, accursed race of Earthmen!' but now way to say 'Would you like a coffee?'.
Other bands to do something similar -
Can with Damo Suzuki, who sang in a mixture of English, Japanese, German and gibberish. He referred to it as the language of the stone age.
Sigur Ros sing in Hopelandic.
Ruins sing in a made up tongue of their own invention.
The Cocteau Twins had their own bizarre language as well - in The Crow Road by Iain Banks the central character knows he's stoned when he can understand what Liz Fraser is singing.
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Koenjihyakkei have their own language as well, right?
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: October 01 2005 at 08:23 |
tuxon wrote:
I was immidiatly hooked to Magma's musick, quite accesible actually.
Before listening to it I expected something more strange, but I like them a lot, from first listening on.
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how about mozart?
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SlipperFink
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 230
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 23:32 |
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DeFutura is hilariously great.
SM.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 22:37 |
phallus dei is indeed in some moments comparable to Zeuhl, and so is some RIO, and even Canterbury has on occasion some links to the Zeuhl movement (not to mention Fusion which is IMO the core of the genre). but krautrock had only in the beginning days some minor things in common, mostly it was the experimental, space rock oriented approach, but Kraut moved to a more electronic, ambient style, while Zeuhl searched the borders of bass/drum oriented music.
or something like that
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 19:32 |
Trouserpress wrote:
Magma is fun. Zeuhl is fun! |
Frankly, I cannot see any fun in Magma. Must admit that I have just started to dig into this subgenre of prog, and borrowed from friend of mine 4 albums of Magma (' 73 - Mekanik..., '74- Kontrakto..., 77- Udu Wudu and 84 - Merci). Starting with the last: 'Merci' I found to be a complete rubbish - more low quality disco than anything else. The other 3 are much more interesting. Not the easiest kind of music to get into, and certainly it takes time to diggest, but it is quite challenging. But still no fun! It is rather disturbing, depressing, neurvous, psychic music. In best moment it reminds me of Art Zoyd and Univers Zero (Heresie).
I also borrowed 3 albums by Zao (who belonging to Zeuhl as well, according to these Archives). I find music of Zao completely different, and it is very strange to me that two absolutely different bands are in the same subgenre. Zao is very good fusion/jazz-rock, with beautiful expressive violin, much easier accessible than magma, and although quite serious, can be called fun at moments.
I also have amon duul II "Phallos dei" which is closer to Magma, I would say, but they are in Kraut rock division.
Would be interesting to hear experts opinion about Zeuhl, Kraut, their similarities and differences, and by which criteria one can tell one from the other.
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carefulwiththataxe
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 17:29 |
Kobaian was developed by Christian Vander and Klaus Blasquiz, at least partly because the French language wasn't suitable for the kind of vocal sound Vander had in mind. The invented language was intended to sound German/Slavonic, hence the large number of hard consonants.
According to Chris Cutler, Christian and Klaus occasionally conversed in Kobaian but the language was rather limited - many ways to say 'Die, accursed race of Earthmen!' but now way to say 'Would you like a coffee?'.
Other bands to do something similar -
Can with Damo Suzuki, who sang in a mixture of English, Japanese, German and gibberish. He referred to it as the language of the stone age.
Sigur Ros sing in Hopelandic.
Ruins sing in a made up tongue of their own invention.
The Cocteau Twins had their own bizarre language as well - in The Crow Road by Iain Banks the central character knows he's stoned when he can understand what Liz Fraser is singing.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Violenza
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 381
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 16:18 |
Magma is the most innovative and daring prog band. They are, in my opinion, what prog was supposed to be.
Üdü Wüdü is one of my favourite albums.
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RoyalJelly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 582
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 15:47 |
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You have to put it in context: Magma¨s first album was in 1970.
The only people doing a viable fusion of jazz and rock at this
time were Miles Davis, Frank Zappa & the Mothers, Tony
William's Lifetime (with John MacLaughlin), and in Europe, Soft
Machine and Magma. With all due respect to Soft Machine,
while incredibly beautiful and creative, they were still very
much experimenting. Magma came on the scene with a totally
complete concept, and a very solid combination of jazz, rock
and modern classic. And one of the earliest concept albums,
which not only spanned an album, but many over decades. Not
all of them are so outstanding, but the first one is dazzling and
radical, and Kontrakosz is an intoxicatingly beautiful and close
to perfect album (a teacher of mine once said "There's nothing
more boring than perfection"). I like that their songs are in an
incomprehensible language, thereby avoiding ALL the clichés
and kitch of prog pseudo-poetry, and keeping the listener
always focused on the music. Their influence was extensive, in
Europe at least...without Magma, no Henry Cow, Art Zoyd,
Univers Zero, etc. as we know them...
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ummagumma08
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 280
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Posted: September 30 2005 at 14:58 |
I don’t think that the Magma "lyrics" make any sense, they are not supposed to! That’s the entire point! To complain about that they don’t make sense is senseless! For Magma the vocal cords are just another instrument!
It seems to be a very common view that Magma invented the "language" as a somewhat pointless show-off stunt, when I tell people about Magma and the invented language, I usually hear something like: "That’s the most stupid thing I’ve heard about".
But I really don’t see it that way, to me it seems that the "language" has arisen because, at some point, Vander humbly realised that he wasn’t able to write lyrics in the traditional sense with a satisfactory content, thus an urge for writing choral/vocal arrangements triggered the language. To make a complaint that the language isn’t understandable is, the way I see it, very irrelevant, the whole point is that we are not supposed to wonder what the strange sounds that make up the so called "language" mean, like we do with regular lyrics, that’s probably the main reason why they use this "language" anyway; to make us focus on the music rather than the lyrics! Like discussed in another thread, I really don’t think it gives much sense even to call "Kobaian" a language, as said before, it’s merely the vocal cords functioning as an instrument, the sounds that results from that is hardly considered a language! there’s no real semantic content (apart from the fact that a few words have had meanings assigned to them, for instance the case that wurdah means murder). The way I see it Magma didn’t invent the language, it just happened rather automatically, as to serve a sincere purpose, certainly not pointless! (if we are to believe Vander, I do (my biggest idol)).
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:51 |
Trouserpress wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Its quite gratifying when one of ones old threads gets a bit of an airing! |
Aye. Has your own opinion on Magma shifted at all, Snowy?
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Haven't really listened since this thread was started......I'll give 'em anotrher go though!
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:51 |
Doesburger wrote:
OldFatherThames wrote:
Even if it's not science fiction !! Who cares ! If they talk about monkey of Africa or whatever ! I still think their idea being ridiculous...that's what I say !! But if it's science fiction, it's even weakest !! If you still don't understand my point of view, I can make you a draw.
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Your point was that you don't like Magma (which is your own business) because you think writing lyrics in a created language is stupid. My point is that since you don't understand the lyrics, how can you say that's stupid? A drawing would be appreciated.
And, yes I got it. You don't like science-ficiton. But that's not the subject of this discussion.
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Hang on, hang on! You haven't picked up on the biggest flaw in his argument! If he can tell that it's science fiction without understanding the words, then the language in combination with the music must be communicating somehow, which means it can't just be nonsense!
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The Hemulen
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Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:47 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Its quite gratifying when one of ones old threads gets a bit of an airing! |
Aye. Has your own opinion on Magma shifted at all, Snowy?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:45 |
Its quite gratifying when one of ones old threads gets a bit of an airing!
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OldFatherThames
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 02 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 317
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:43 |
Trouserpress wrote:
OldFatherThames wrote:
Doesburger wrote:
OldFatherThames wrote:
Even if it's not science fiction !! Who cares ! If they talk about monkey of Africa or whatever ! I still think their idea being ridiculous...that's what I say !! But if it's science fiction, it's even weakest !! If you still don't understand my point of view, I can make you a draw.
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Your point was that you don't like Magma (which is your own business) because you think writing lyrics in a created language is stupid. My point is that since you don't understand the lyrics, how can you say that's stupid? A drawing would be appreciated.
And, yes I got it. You don't like science-ficiton. But that's not the subject of this discussion.
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I don't say the content of the lyrics are stupid. Maybe what they say is the greatest poetry of all time ! I don' know and I don't care. I just don't like their concept of creating a langage...THAT'S my point !!
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Do you think it's stupid when vocalists make sounds with their voices that aren't words? Thjis van Leer of Focus, for instance. Why not think of Magma's lyrics as just sounds and the voices as another instrument?
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Yes, you can take his voice like an instrument if you want, but that's not the point. I just say I find it stupid to create a langage and make all your songs around it. If you like that, it's your way, but I don't. Van Leer sometimes use his voices like an instruments and I find it ok. But I don't like the "world" that Magma create with their music and their lyrics. And I'm almost sure that his voices is not only use as an instrument. I really think it's a part of the concept of the band.
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The Hemulen
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Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
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Points: 5964
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Posted: September 28 2005 at 11:32 |
OldFatherThames wrote:
Doesburger wrote:
OldFatherThames wrote:
Even if it's not science fiction !! Who cares ! If they talk about monkey of Africa or whatever ! I still think their idea being ridiculous...that's what I say !! But if it's science fiction, it's even weakest !! If you still don't understand my point of view, I can make you a draw.
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Your point was that you don't like Magma (which is your own business) because you think writing lyrics in a created language is stupid. My point is that since you don't understand the lyrics, how can you say that's stupid? A drawing would be appreciated.
And, yes I got it. You don't like science-ficiton. But that's not the subject of this discussion.
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I don't say the content of the lyrics are stupid. Maybe what they say is the greatest poetry of all time ! I don' know and I don't care. I just don't like their concept of creating a langage...THAT'S my point !!
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Do you think it's stupid when vocalists make sounds with their voices that aren't words? Thjis van Leer of Focus, for instance. Why not think of Magma's lyrics as just sounds and the voices as another instrument?
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