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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Throwaway Download Culture
    Posted: December 30 2009 at 05:44
How much money do artists receive from download services? Or even ordering a CD from a place like Wayside or Greg Walker's?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2009 at 13:56
^  Several years ago, I was involved in an "arrangement" with an internet buddy.  He had a friend who set up an FTP site, and uploaded ripped prog albums.  My buddy only had web tv (remember that???), so I would go to the site once a week, get the albums (20 or so at a time), burn them to CDR and send them to my buddy.  After getting around 70 or 80 albums this way, I started to question the ethics of this, and also started getting tired of spending the time doing it.  Of those 70 or 80 albums, I have bought maybe 6 or 8 on CD.  At the time, my justification was that I would buy what I really liked (although at the time, some of these albums, probably a third, were not in print and couldn't be bought new in any case........a subset of those were actually ripped from vinyl and had never been on CD.....I've kept about 10 or so that still are not available on CD at all).  Obviously, that didn't happen.

Now, in truth I doubt I would have bought even the 6 or 8 that I did buy if I hadn't heard them (though it's hard to say........I've learned about quite a few bands from this site that I never knew about back then, so it's still possible those would have been purchases eventually).  But as a musician myself (lifelong amateur), I can't help but feel guilty about taking someone else's hard  work (not to mention heart and soul) and not giving them anything in return.  So I never download, except if an artist is offering stuff for free and asking people to listen.  I also hate samples, and find them utterly useless.  This is just my feeling about them and experience with them and if other people find them helpful or useful that is great for them.

My first albums I purchased as a teenager were all on vinyl.  I taped them all and listened to them that way mostly.  My friends and I would give each other copies of albums on cassette regularly, because we didn't have enough money to each buy everything we wanted individually  (this, I don't think, can be considered the same as illegal downloading, since we were not making these tapes for millions of people to hear for free........though I'm sure it's no less illegal either).  By college, I bought everything on CD, but still taped them all for listening (CD players were still expensive then).  I like to have the physical object.  Call it a fetish, but I think it's just a simple thing, like stamp collecting or any other type of collection that people everywhere enjoy doing.  The music should always stand on it's own, of course, but for me I have a hard time separating prog music from the physical forms of art and lyrics in the booklets.  I can't even conceive of Tales From Topographic Oceans or Nursery Cryme without their covers and booklets.  But I suppose I'm a very visual person, and prog at its best creates lovely landscapes and galaxies and geometries in my head when I listen.

Anyway, I agree with Dean that downloading has probably done more to hinder the innovation and revolution in music than it has to move it forward.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2009 at 01:36
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:



If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money.

If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples".

-Jeff


So should people only pay for music if they can afford it? In many cases people have enough money to buy an album that they downloaded and enjoyed ... but instead  they spend this money on other things they (think they) want, which can't be downloaded. Hand on heart - if you had a computer filled with downloaded albums and you went to a store, would you spend your hard earned cash on some of the albums that you already have as illegal downloads, or on albums you don't already have (and which you can't find as downloads)?

I don't doubt that there are people out there who are that fair and honest that they buy each downloaded album that they enjoy ... but I think that the exception rather than the rule.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:21
I'm still with Nick Barrett on this one - the middle tier bands rely the most on album sales. From there, to each to make their decision on how their choice may affect their favourite band's options.
Now of course, as Akin has mentioned, and I've said too, many of those middle tier bands are still around because they've learned how to offer something that their fans will pay for, no matter how easy it is to download it for free.

Oh, by the way, can someone lend me $15 ? I want to get the new Marillion, but the budget won't be there 'til Mid November Cry
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 14:56
My views about the subject are:

- What I'm saying may be wrong, but I believe that the music industry was starting to decline after a huge boom in the mid nineties, exactly when the illegal downloads and p2p networks became popular, making it seem as if the downloads were the only responsible for all the losses. That is why it is hard to evaluate the impact of the downloads on the music market.

- Whether an illegal download is harmful or helpful to the artist and the record companies depends only on the person who is downloading. There are both the ones who download with the sole purpose of finding another albums to buy, the ones who download and buy, but downloading neither prevent them buying CDs nor cause them to buy more CDs and those who download instead of buying. The harmful case for the artists and record industry is the last one.

- What is feel is that, with the time, less people are used to pay for the music, so the last case mentioned outnumbers by far both the first and the second case. Being so, illegal downloads are harming the industry and the artists not because every download would become a sold CD if downloads didn't exist (anyone who thinks so need a sanity check), but because newer generations are much less used to pay for music. That is, in my opinion, why the music industry is shrinking. People who listen to music, but are not potential consumers. And I feel that most of the younger generation is falling in this category.

- My dad used to tell me that when he or a friend of his bought a new record (on late 50s, early sixties), there was a fuss among all the other friends, since it was expensive to an album at those times. When I was young, it was much easier to buy albums, but even so, people found it cool to have the cds, even being able to tape or rip them. Nowadays, people say it is stupid to buy cds and it is a waste of time and money, since you can download it 2 months before it is released. This change in culture is what is really sad and dangerous to the whole music industry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 12:44
^ that's what I meant by "time limit". It varies from country to country, but it's at least several decades (I think in Germany it's 70 years).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 11:42
Isn't the music copyrighted for only so long?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 11:34
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ the heir. I think there's a time limit though.


well screw them, no? Winkdont the heir's have their own jobs? Wink Unless it's someone like Dweezil Zappa Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 10:05
Originally posted by terryl terryl wrote:

Hi, just a thought here about this mp3 discussion. I had bought a lot of music in the cassette tape era, and these were copyrighted, legally distributed stuff by their appropriate labels. Of course, the artists had their share of the sales. Years gone by, cassette players became obsolete. Legal MP3 download off amazon or itunes mean nothing to me as my country is not eligible. Do you think downloading in this case is wrong?

I do buy some albums i really like on CD format, even though i already paid for the cassette fifteen years ago. But to buy back all of those albums in CD i need to be a millionaire, even if I hunted most of my CDs on ebay.



in light of the big and long quote from Dean, I don't see that my downloading old back catalogue of those albums i already had for their cassette format will cause any income threats to the artists. Is this a bad thought really?
And who are we to justify the right in all we do
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 09:54
^ the heir. I think there's a time limit though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2009 at 09:49
What about downloading music from a dead artist?   Who benefits from the sale of one of their albums?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:47
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

as I said in the other thread, I like it best when an artist (say Hi Monsieur Barrett, take a bow Marillion) simply advises their fans that they rely on albums sales to keep making music, and then thank the fans who do support them.
Illegal downloads are a mixed bag at best, and it depends on each act as to whether they've been affected positively or negatively.
When a musician shows me that he or she appreciates the fact that people have chosen to spend hard earned money on their music, well ... right there it shows a certain respect for their audience, and reveals that the artist knows they must work to earn that privilege, album after album, tour after tour. No matter the challenges faced.
And I'll be honest, with the current explosion niche within niche within a sub niche genre in music, it's no longer about trying to attract the casual listener. It's about getting and keeping those hard core fans that will pay for your CDs, special editions, LPs, DVDs, merchandise, tickets ... and also provide you with a honest to goodness real street team who's out there sharing their enthusiasm, not for pay, but for love of the music.

Think of it - They'll pay you for your music, and  , to top that, they'll work for you.

"hey , have you heard the new Voivod album, man ?"


As I said in my previous post, I don't see this as any different to how bands were operating before P2P raised it's head.
 
I cited The Enid in that post and they are a good example of how this interaction with their fanbase created a much larger following than their record sales at the time would suggest they had, and has helped sustain them since the mid 70s.
 
When I was managaing a band at the turn of this century, we used networking to keep in contact with the fans we picked up around the county as we played to small crowds of 10 then 50 then 100 then then 500 people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:37
^ I think they had played out Claude, but if you want to continue pyramid building you only have to hit "quote" in the other thread, then cut and paste it into the reply box of this one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:32
you know Dean, this merging of two threads is really going to kill a good series of quotes within quotes within quotesThumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:30
as I said in the other thread, I like it best when an artist (say Hi Monsieur Barrett, take a bow Marillion) simply advises their fans that they rely on albums sales to keep making music, and then thank the fans who do support them.
Illegal downloads are a mixed bag at best, and it depends on each act as to whether they've been affected positively or negatively.
When a musician shows me that he or she appreciates the fact that people have chosen to spend hard earned money on their music, well ... right there it shows a certain respect for their audience, and reveals that the artist knows they must work to earn that privilege, album after album, tour after tour. No matter the challenges faced.
And I'll be honest, with the current explosion niche within niche within a sub niche genre in music, it's no longer about trying to attract the casual listener. It's about getting and keeping those hard core fans that will pay for your CDs, special editions, LPs, DVDs, merchandise, tickets ... and also provide you with a honest to goodness real street team who's out there sharing their enthusiasm, not for pay, but for love of the music.

Think of it - They'll pay you for your music, and  , to top that, they'll work for you.

"hey , have you heard the new Voivod album, man ?"


"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2009 at 18:53

Anyone who has been following the parallel discussions in the Martin Orford Interview thread may be aware that there is a line of thought that sees downloading (and specifically illegal downloading) as causing a revolution in how music is presented, promoted and sold. On the face of it this seems like a logical conclusion, but I am not so convinced that downloading is responsible this change and may actually have hindered it to some extent.

 

We are all aware of the horror stories about major label recording contracts and how they rip-off their artists, we have seen the public fights between big name stars such as Prince and George Michael and their respective record labels and seen how bands are dropped by labels as soon as they fail to deliver the next million selling album. We’ve also seen the successes that artists like Radiohead and NIN can achieve by extraditing themselves from restrictive recording contracts and using the Internet to market themselves. Yet still there are queues of people auditioning for X Factor and <insert my country name here>'s Got Talent and countless young bands sending in their demos to every record label they can find the postal address for. There are thousands of aspiring artists and performers who would sell their grandmothers to get a recording contract with any record label, big, small, independent or multinational, they approach these contracts with $$ signs in their eyes and sign them without quibble.

 

So what went wrong, and why do all these people still believe in hitting the big time with a major recording contract?

 
Originally posted by personal thoughts of Dean Cracknell, Age 52½ personal thoughts of Dean Cracknell, Age 52½ wrote:

  

Economics. No one, even record execs and A&R men, can predict which artists will make it big - signing an artist is a gamble – and they take the all risks - they pay all money up front to get the product onto the shelves. The record company pays for the costs of recording, manufacturing and distribution of the album; they pay for the promotion, advertising and the promotional video; and they paid the artist an advance on royalties. If the release was a success then the label made money, but if it failed they lost. The labels minimised the risk by signing a number of different artists so that the losses from all the flops and failures will be covered by the big successes and the more bands they could afford to sign then the more chances they had of having successful singles and albums. This is how Tubular Bells initially financed Gong, Tangerine Dream, Kevin Coyne, Ivor Cutler, Tom Newman, Captain Beefheart, Slapp Happy & Henry Cow, Clearlight Symphony, Robert Wyatt and Hatfield and the North. The really big labels can also cover this risk by having a large back catalogue of perennial sellers in a diversity of genres so they can weather the vagaries of fads and trends (kind of sobering thought that Bing Crosby’s “White Christmas” helped finance the birth of Progressive Rock through Decca/Deram). The recording contracts between label and artist are also structured to minimise those losses for the label, they are geared to not pay out royalties until all the production costs have been repaid, including the advance that the band was given at the beginning of the contract (it’s not called an advance for nothing), and the royalties are set at a value that leaves enough cash for the label to finance more artists and albums and still make a profit for their owners and shareholders.

 

The problem with that economic model is that the successful artists are paying for the unsuccessful ones, which means that the popular artists are not seeing the full benefit of their success – which in turn leads to the inevitable claims of rip-off and artistic control when the artist is pressured for another hit album. It also relies solely on sales of a single product – if sales drop then earnings drop across the board.

 

This model does not work so well for smaller labels, who need to see a steady income from all their artists – they don’t need the one big success to pay for the others, they need all their albums and singles to sell in moderate numbers so they all paid for themselves. While that may seem like a more stable approach, the life-span of the independent label can be short because their artists are more specialist, targeted at a narrow trend, fad, genre or subgenre of music. When that genre became less popular then all their artists sold less, and if several of their artists fail to sell then they will make a loss. When the losses get too much and they cannot pay their suppliers (studios, pressing plants, distributors) they go bankrupt and fold; or get swallowed up by a bigger label who wanted the steady selling back catalogue and perhaps the one or two the more successful artists on their own roster.

 

However, in August 1982 the record labels received a massive windfall – a new invention called CD was launched - and suddenly their entire back catalogues were viable again and sales soured. In a time of rapid sales growth, lesser known, poor selling artists were dropped like stones and even major artists whose popularity had declined were seen as unnecessary and a burden. New talent was still needed, but the deals being offered less lucrative and less speculative, advances were smaller and the up-front costs were minimised, it also meant that if an artist was not a success on the first album, then there probably wouldn’t be a second.

 

This 50 year old business model began to break down in the 1990s, (before the advent of broadband, downloading and P2P), and was suffering in the early 2000s when market saturation of the reissued albums was reached. Labels delved deeper into their back catalogues and, because production costs were practically zero, they could concentrate on reissuing more obscure artists for niche markets, they also discovered the money spinning potential of remastering to resell what they had already sold two times over.

 

In the meantime, artists who were dropped in the 80s and 90s started their own labels and new Independent labels, rather than having aspirations of being big labels (like those of the 70s), carried on the tradition set in the 80s of catering for niche markets and concentrated on bands that did not need huge operating budgets. (One of the problems facing small labels is they do not have the cash-flow to finance multi-million sales – once an artist gets too big they either have to let them go, or risk having the whole label being bought-up by a major)

 

By working with smaller overheads and tighter margins they could succeed because they knew their market, they could target their product directly to the fans and then use that to promote themselves to fans of related artists – social networking didn’t start with MyFace, it started on paper and on dial-up email with artists using mailing lists collected at gigs and through fan-clubs and appreciation societies to stay in contact with their fans, (something that was used to great effect in the 1970s by bands like The Enid). The methods being hailed as revolutionary today were pioneered by these artists and labels.

 

 

The advent of broadband and mass downloading in my opinion created a huge smoke-screen that diverted the Major labels from putting their house in order, it gave them a scapegoat to rally against because it did affect their sales figures – they are sharp enough at understanding the market they operate in and employ well educated and well qualified accountants to tell them so. It also affected the smaller labels who were already working on methods to avoid the problems faced by declining album sales, and had been for many years before, because it removed a vital percentage of their revenue stream. So while it may look like P2P downloading has triggered this revolution, I believe it had already started before then, and would have happened quicker without it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 21:24
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money.

If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples".

-Jeff

True for me.

And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:



The people who love music will usually buy the album after "stealing" it. If I like an album that I copy from a friend, I'll always buy it.


Sorry, but I don't think that this is generally true. More than five years ago I was into file sharing, too. Back then (2002, 2003) you could do it without any legal consequences, and I must have downloaded tons of stuff. It was a time when I (re-)discovered prog, so I would download tons of stuff. In retrospect I only purchased a small fraction of all those albums. It's not that I wouldn't want to purchase them ... but even though I have a fairly big budget for music (especially compared to those who live in poorer countries), I simply couldn't afford buying those albums. For example I had the *entire* Zappa discography, more than 100 albums.

One day I realized that what I was doing was wrong ... so I deleted all my downloaded files, and I haven't engaged in illegal downloading for more than five years now (no music, no movies, no software ... nothing).

My point is: I'm sure that many people who download illegally are doing it with the best intentions (buying stuff if they like it) but at the end of the day they will not buy everything they download and enjoy. That's a problem IMO, because it means that people are listening to the work of an artist, enjoying it, but not compensating the artist. The fair solution would be to use legal offerings to sample the artist's albums and then buying albums based on those samples. I know that people who are used to listen to whole albums in order to make the decision are cautious to trust samples ... but from my own experience you rarely get disappointed by an album compared to the myspace samples (for example).


If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money.

If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples".

-Jeff

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:46
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

For those who would like to preserve the past ephemera , I will accept cash, Paypal or Visa for shipping my Bay City Rollers'' LPs to anywhere in the world. My Shaun Cassidy albums though, I am donating to our local library for posterity.

Doesn't anyone remember the TV show "the San Pedro Beach Bums" ?

oh, and all genres of music and art have their fair share of ephemera. because not everything deserves to be preserved forever, and nothing everything that does deserve to be preserved is preserved.
Except for , seemingly, any old building that as managed to stay standing for more than 75 years.


Owning a Bay City Rollers LP could be deemed embarrassing but owning a bootleg would be shameful. Even Hell has a door policy. I'll trade you my Haircut 100 discography (and posters) for your Rollers collection.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:03
For those who would like to preserve the past ephemera , I will accept cash, Paypal or Visa for shipping my Bay City Rollers'' LPs to anywhere in the world. My Shaun Cassidy albums though, I am donating to our local library for posterity.

Doesn't anyone remember the TV show "the San Pedro Beach Bums" ?

oh, and all genres of music and art have their fair share of ephemera. because not everything deserves to be preserved forever, and nothing everything that does deserve to be preserved is preserved.
Except for , seemingly, any old building that as managed to stay standing for more than 75 years.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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