Throwaway Download Culture |
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 18 2008 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 512 |
Topic: Throwaway Download Culture Posted: December 30 2009 at 05:44 |
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How much money do artists receive from download services? Or even ordering a CD from a place like Wayside or Greg Walker's?
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infandous
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: October 07 2009 at 13:56 | |
^ Several years ago, I was involved in an "arrangement" with an internet buddy. He had a friend who set up an FTP site, and uploaded ripped prog albums. My buddy only had web tv (remember that???), so I would go to the site once a week, get the albums (20 or so at a time), burn them to CDR and send them to my buddy. After getting around 70 or 80 albums this way, I started to question the ethics of this, and also started getting tired of spending the time doing it. Of those 70 or 80 albums, I have bought maybe 6 or 8 on CD. At the time, my justification was that I would buy what I really liked (although at the time, some of these albums, probably a third, were not in print and couldn't be bought new in any case........a subset of those were actually ripped from vinyl and had never been on CD.....I've kept about 10 or so that still are not available on CD at all). Obviously, that didn't happen.
Now, in truth I doubt I would have bought even the 6 or 8 that I did buy if I hadn't heard them (though it's hard to say........I've learned about quite a few bands from this site that I never knew about back then, so it's still possible those would have been purchases eventually). But as a musician myself (lifelong amateur), I can't help but feel guilty about taking someone else's hard work (not to mention heart and soul) and not giving them anything in return. So I never download, except if an artist is offering stuff for free and asking people to listen. I also hate samples, and find them utterly useless. This is just my feeling about them and experience with them and if other people find them helpful or useful that is great for them. My first albums I purchased as a teenager were all on vinyl. I taped them all and listened to them that way mostly. My friends and I would give each other copies of albums on cassette regularly, because we didn't have enough money to each buy everything we wanted individually (this, I don't think, can be considered the same as illegal downloading, since we were not making these tapes for millions of people to hear for free........though I'm sure it's no less illegal either). By college, I bought everything on CD, but still taped them all for listening (CD players were still expensive then). I like to have the physical object. Call it a fetish, but I think it's just a simple thing, like stamp collecting or any other type of collection that people everywhere enjoy doing. The music should always stand on it's own, of course, but for me I have a hard time separating prog music from the physical forms of art and lyrics in the booklets. I can't even conceive of Tales From Topographic Oceans or Nursery Cryme without their covers and booklets. But I suppose I'm a very visual person, and prog at its best creates lovely landscapes and galaxies and geometries in my head when I listen. Anyway, I agree with Dean that downloading has probably done more to hinder the innovation and revolution in music than it has to move it forward. |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 07 2009 at 01:36 | |
So should people only pay for music if they can afford it? In many cases people have enough money to buy an album that they downloaded and enjoyed ... but instead they spend this money on other things they (think they) want, which can't be downloaded. Hand on heart - if you had a computer filled with downloaded albums and you went to a store, would you spend your hard earned cash on some of the albums that you already have as illegal downloads, or on albums you don't already have (and which you can't find as downloads)? I don't doubt that there are people out there who are that fair and honest that they buy each downloaded album that they enjoy ... but I think that the exception rather than the rule. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 17:21 | |
I'm still with Nick Barrett on this one - the middle tier bands rely the most on album sales. From there, to each to make their decision on how their choice may affect their favourite band's options.
Now of course, as Akin has mentioned, and I've said too, many of those middle tier bands are still around because they've learned how to offer something that their fans will pay for, no matter how easy it is to download it for free. Oh, by the way, can someone lend me $15 ? I want to get the new Marillion, but the budget won't be there 'til Mid November |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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akin
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 06 2004 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 976 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 14:56 | |
My views about the subject are:
- What I'm saying may be wrong, but I believe that the music industry was starting to decline after a huge boom in the mid nineties, exactly when the illegal downloads and p2p networks became popular, making it seem as if the downloads were the only responsible for all the losses. That is why it is hard to evaluate the impact of the downloads on the music market. - Whether an illegal download is harmful or helpful to the artist and the record companies depends only on the person who is downloading. There are both the ones who download with the sole purpose of finding another albums to buy, the ones who download and buy, but downloading neither prevent them buying CDs nor cause them to buy more CDs and those who download instead of buying. The harmful case for the artists and record industry is the last one. - What is feel is that, with the time, less people are used to pay for the music, so the last case mentioned outnumbers by far both the first and the second case. Being so, illegal downloads are harming the industry and the artists not because every download would become a sold CD if downloads didn't exist (anyone who thinks so need a sanity check), but because newer generations are much less used to pay for music. That is, in my opinion, why the music industry is shrinking. People who listen to music, but are not potential consumers. And I feel that most of the younger generation is falling in this category. - My dad used to tell me that when he or a friend of his bought a new record (on late 50s, early sixties), there was a fuss among all the other friends, since it was expensive to an album at those times. When I was young, it was much easier to buy albums, but even so, people found it cool to have the cds, even being able to tape or rip them. Nowadays, people say it is stupid to buy cds and it is a waste of time and money, since you can download it 2 months before it is released. This change in culture is what is really sad and dangerous to the whole music industry. |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 12:44 | |
^ that's what I meant by "time limit". It varies from country to country, but it's at least several decades (I think in Germany it's 70 years).
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A Person
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 11:42 | |
Isn't the music copyrighted for only so long?
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darkshade
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 11:34 | |
well screw them, no? dont the heir's have their own jobs? Unless it's someone like Dweezil Zappa |
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terryl
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 03 2007 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 183 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 10:05 | |
in light of the big and long quote from Dean, I don't see that my downloading old back catalogue of those albums i already had for their cassette format will cause any income threats to the artists. Is this a bad thought really? |
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And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0 |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 09:54 | |
^ the heir. I think there's a time limit though.
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moe_blunts
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 18 2008 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 617 |
Posted: October 06 2009 at 09:49 | |
What about downloading music from a dead artist? Who benefits from the sale of one of their albums?
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:47 | |
I cited The Enid in that post and they are a good example of how this interaction with their fanbase created a much larger following than their record sales at the time would suggest they had, and has helped sustain them since the mid 70s.
When I was managaing a band at the turn of this century, we used networking to keep in contact with the fans we picked up around the county as we played to small crowds of 10 then 50 then 100 then then 500 people.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:37 | |
^ I think they had played out Claude, but if you want to continue pyramid building you only have to hit "quote" in the other thread, then cut and paste it into the reply box of this one.
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What?
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:32 | |
you know Dean, this merging of two threads is really going to kill a good series of quotes within quotes within quotes.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: October 05 2009 at 19:30 | |
as I said in the other thread, I like it best when an artist (say Hi Monsieur Barrett, take a bow Marillion) simply advises their fans that they rely on albums sales to keep making music, and then thank the fans who do support them.
Illegal downloads are a mixed bag at best, and it depends on each act as to whether they've been affected positively or negatively. When a musician shows me that he or she appreciates the fact that people have chosen to spend hard earned money on their music, well ... right there it shows a certain respect for their audience, and reveals that the artist knows they must work to earn that privilege, album after album, tour after tour. No matter the challenges faced. And I'll be honest, with the current explosion niche within niche within a sub niche genre in music, it's no longer about trying to attract the casual listener. It's about getting and keeping those hard core fans that will pay for your CDs, special editions, LPs, DVDs, merchandise, tickets ... and also provide you with a honest to goodness real street team who's out there sharing their enthusiasm, not for pay, but for love of the music. Think of it - They'll pay you for your music, and , to top that, they'll work for you. "hey , have you heard the new Voivod album, man ?" |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 05 2009 at 18:53 | |
Anyone who has been following the parallel discussions in the Martin Orford Interview thread may be aware that there is a line of thought that sees downloading (and specifically illegal downloading) as causing a revolution in how music is presented, promoted and sold. On the face of it this seems like a logical conclusion, but I am not so convinced that downloading is responsible this change and may actually have hindered it to some extent. We are all aware of the horror stories about major label recording contracts and how they rip-off their artists, we have seen the public fights between big name stars such as Prince and George Michael and their respective record labels and seen how bands are dropped by labels as soon as they fail to deliver the next million selling album. We’ve also seen the successes that artists like Radiohead and NIN can achieve by extraditing themselves from restrictive recording contracts and using the Internet to market themselves. Yet still there are queues of people auditioning for X Factor and <insert my country name here>'s Got Talent and countless young bands sending in their demos to every record label they can find the postal address for. There are thousands of aspiring artists and performers who would sell their grandmothers to get a recording contract with any record label, big, small, independent or multinational, they approach these contracts with $$ signs in their eyes and sign them without quibble. So what went wrong, and why do all these people still believe in hitting the big time with a major recording contract?
The advent of broadband and mass downloading in my opinion created a huge smoke-screen that diverted the Major labels from putting their house in order, it gave them a scapegoat to rally against because it did affect their sales figures – they are sharp enough at understanding the market they operate in and employ well educated and well qualified accountants to tell them so. It also affected the smaller labels who were already working on methods to avoid the problems faced by declining album sales, and had been for many years before, because it removed a vital percentage of their revenue stream. So while it may look like P2P downloading has triggered this revolution, I believe it had already started before then, and would have happened quicker without it. |
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What?
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terryl
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 03 2007 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 183 |
Posted: October 04 2009 at 21:24 | |
True for me. |
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And who are we to justify the right in all we do
Until we seek, until we find Ammonia Avenue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrmJ39j58W0 |
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: October 04 2009 at 17:35 | |
If someone downloads an album that they like, why wouldn't they buy it? It's probably because they don't have the money to buy everything they like. If we didn't download the album in the first place, we still wouldn't buy it because we don't have the money. If the situation does work out that way, then all the download did was give you some exposure to the artist, hopefully resulting in a purchase of a new album, or something like that down the road. Sure there are exceptions, but that is how I look at it. The bottom line is that we won't have the money to buy every album in existence, whether we download it or not. And I should mention that I rarely fileshare. I just try to defend it because it gets so much negative hype, when in reality it's no worse than "samples". -Jeff |
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:46 | |
Owning a Bay City Rollers LP could be deemed embarrassing but owning a bootleg would be shameful. Even Hell has a door policy. I'll trade you my Haircut 100 discography (and posters) for your Rollers collection. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: October 03 2009 at 11:03 | |
For those who would like to preserve the past ephemera , I will accept cash, Paypal or Visa for shipping my Bay City Rollers'' LPs to anywhere in the world. My Shaun Cassidy albums though, I am donating to our local library for posterity.
Doesn't anyone remember the TV show "the San Pedro Beach Bums" ? oh, and all genres of music and art have their fair share of ephemera. because not everything deserves to be preserved forever, and nothing everything that does deserve to be preserved is preserved. Except for , seemingly, any old building that as managed to stay standing for more than 75 years. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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