cool time signature experiment

Thanks! Glad I could help... I think the proper term for this is Metric Modulation. As any good musician/music-major would know, modulation in the harmonic sense involves moving from one key to another, usually around a tonal center (such as changing from the key of A, to it's dominant, the key of E through the use of any chords in A that share tones/pitches with chords in E). The key signature might not change, but the chord progression itself reveals the key through cadences.

In rhythm, modulation occurs when the note that gets the beat is changed, whether or not the time signature is the same. LIke with harmonic modulation, the time signature can still be the same, but the accented pulse will be different, forcing the listener to accept the new rhythm pattern, but there might still be underlying patterns in the old time signature.

-Marc.

I think exactly what you might be thinking of happens in Dream Theater's "The Mirror", where in  a triplet pattern of triplet eigth notes becomes the normal eigth note (half a quarter, not a third).

I used a similar method in a piece I composed which which is as follows (using your notation here):

(1)23 (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 | (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 | (1)23 1(2)3 12(3) 123 | (1)23 1(2)3 12(3) 123 | 

In the second pair of measures, the accent moves from every three to every four, so in the two measures there, it can sound like 2 measures of 3/4 (or 3 of 2/4) with a new eigth note base.

I've also done something similar with 7/8 where I would take the triplet eigths and phrase them in 7s:

(1)23 (1)23 1(2)3 1(2)3 12(3) 12(3) 123 | (1)23 (1)23 1(2)3 1(2)3 12(3) 12(3) 123 |

It's easier to hear using a melody, which is what I did in a keyboard lead in that pattern. It really disguises the time signature and makes you have to listen carefully!

-Marc.

My drumline was talking about this. A buddy and I were saying that the quints should play something in 7/8, the bass drummers in 3/4, and the snare in 4/4. We found out that by finding the lowest common multiple, that's where they would line up. So you would multiply 7, 4, and 3 and get 84. Then you'd divide by the time signature you're playing in to find out how many times you would have to play that until everything lined up again.

So the 7/8 guy would play 12 measures, the 4/4 guy would play 21 measures, and the 3/4 guy would play 28 measures.

puma wrote: except there's no 12th note

no kidding. that was not meant to be taken serious, but more to help visualize the relationship better.

akiko wrote: To quote Vinnie "I never count past 4"

that would be a neat poly rhythm, but still doesnt quite work the same way. not sure if you were just saying another idea or if you were saying the result would be the same. Thank you though for your idea.

Of coarse, i did not mean directly playing a complex hemiola derived time signature (although that would be cool). I meant play in a basic irregular time signature and then switch to triple which would definitely be perceived. As for the twelfth note that was just a random aside and i know the conventional method. I think this is what you were talking about... if i'm still not on the right track please do inform me, but still you have my meaning. Thank you for your input.

To quote Vinnie "I never count past 4"

It would be pretty kinky if you keep say, the guitar riff as you said and the drums at regular 7/8. At least that'd give all us fanatics trouble in calculating it. Especially if you make it change between the double and the triple calculating five altogether. Or make the melody go double-triple-double-triple and the beat/drums go triple double-triple-double. And then get a new falutist and tell them to improvise a coherent solo As for your suggestions, I think I've heard The Flower Kings do this at least once or twice... But at the moment I can't say in which song, I'd have to go through all the albums here just calculating. But they do have these too.

timesignature wrote: Alright - we all know what a time signature is and the basic elements that allow us to form compound time signatures and poly rhythms. We all also know what a hemiola is (either a transfer from a duplet emphasis to triplet emphasis on the same rythm scheme). The only hemiola transfer form that i have heard is the basic 6/4 consisting of 12 duplet emphasized eighth notes transforming into 12/8 triplet emphasized eighth notes, but what if you put the duple count in an irregular time signature such as 7/8 and then used a hemiola transfer?! ex) (parentheses are the down beat, commas end a measure) 7/8 duple: (1)2(3)4(5)6(7), 1(2)3(4)5(6)7, (1) -the basic 7/8 we know where the riff goes exactly off beat causing the riff to have to cycle twice before returning to the down beat, but watch when you keep the eighth notes the same magnitude but switch from duple count to triple count- (1)2(3)4(5)6(7), 1(2)3(4)5(6)7, (1)23(4)56(7), 12(3)45(6)7, 1(2)34(5)67, (1) - this time signature that lasts for seven beats but it was a cycle of three measures! the rhythm does not go off by 1/2, instead the rhythm is 1/3 off beat, then 2/3 off beat, and then returns to the down beat. This surly could not be called a 7/8 beat, but would make more mathematical sense to be called 7/12 sense the quarter note is divided into three parts (1/3)*(1/4)=1/12. But the nomenclature does not matter, just the cool idea of a hemiola with a compound time signature.

ya it does sound good that way. like in jambi by tool. the whole aspect of this however is that it is so irregular to ones' ear to hear a prime time signature be satisfied in an odd number of measures without changing the riffs original rhythm structure. that is why a... i guess reverse hemiola (triplet to duplet), in 9/8 sounds good is cuz 9/8 triplet sounds similar to a 3/4 consisting triplets, and then once you transfer its the basic 9/8 we know (4 beats on beat then 4 beats off). But even with a time signature like 4/4, the most simple and widely used time signature, becomes something special once you switch from duple to triple. Dream Theater has come the closest to full filling this idea (probably more than once that i have not realized). In Learning to Live after james is done singing the part "... of learning to live." you here a cool 11/8 riff that is partly triplet, but instead of following through the triplet vs 11/8 they quickly at the end do a small hemiola back into duple. ex) (1)23(4)56(7)89(10)11, (1)23... or if 1 is the emphasized down beat: 12312312312, 12312312312. cool thought though. thank you for your input.