cool time signature experiment
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Topic: cool time signature experiment
Posted By: timesignature
Subject: cool time signature experiment
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 11:44
Alright - we all know what a time signature is and the basic elements that allow us to form compound time signatures and poly rhythms. We all also know what a hemiola is (either a transfer from a duplet emphasis to triplet emphasis on the same rythm scheme). The only hemiola transfer form that i have heard is the basic 6/4 consisting of 12 duplet emphasized eighth notes transforming into 12/8 triplet emphasized eighth notes, but what if you put the duple count in an irregular time signature such as 7/8 and then used a hemiola transfer?! ex) (parentheses are the down beat, commas end a measure) 7/8 duple: (1)2(3)4(5)6(7), 1(2)3(4)5(6)7, (1) -the basic 7/8 we know where the riff goes exactly off beat causing the riff to have to cycle twice before returning to the down beat, but watch when you keep the eighth notes the same magnitude but switch from duple count to triple count- (1)2(3)4(5)6(7), 1(2)3(4)5(6)7, (1)23(4)56(7), 12(3)45(6)7, 1(2)34(5)67, (1) - this time signature that lasts for seven beats but it was a cycle of three measures! the rhythm does not go off by 1/2, instead the rhythm is 1/3 off beat, then 2/3 off beat, and then returns to the down beat. This surly could not be called a 7/8 beat, but would make more mathematical sense to be called 7/12 sense the quarter note is divided into three parts (1/3)*(1/4)=1/12. But the nomenclature does not matter, just the cool idea of a hemiola with a compound time signature. 
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Replies:
Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 11:54
| sorry for my horrible grammar, ignore the "either a" on the hemiola definition (there is another form of rhythm that is also called a hemiola), ignore the random "that" and im sure i meant "since" not "sense", but please leave your thoughts, ideas, questions, comments and opinions. Thank you! |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 12:41
Way over my head. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:03
 nice, but it sounds even better in 9/8 with duple timing 
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: puma
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:03
| except there's no 12th note |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:37
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or 5 sets of 19/8, a measure of 8/8, and 13 sets of triplets in 5/8 double time
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 13:46
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i'm trying to tap these out with my fingers... to little success
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 14:00
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ya it does sound good that way. like in jambi by tool. the whole aspect of this however is that it is so irregular to ones' ear to hear a prime time signature be satisfied in an odd number of measures without changing the riffs original rhythm structure. that is why a... i guess reverse hemiola (triplet to duplet), in 9/8 sounds good is cuz 9/8 triplet sounds similar to a 3/4 consisting triplets, and then once you transfer its the basic 9/8 we know (4 beats on beat then 4 beats off). But even with a time signature like 4/4, the most simple and widely used time signature, becomes something special once you switch from duple to triple. Dream Theater has come the closest to full filling this idea (probably more than once that i have not realized). In Learning to Live after james is done singing the part "... of learning to live." you here a cool 11/8 riff that is partly triplet, but instead of following through the triplet vs 11/8 they quickly at the end do a small hemiola back into duple. ex) (1)23(4)56(7)89(10)11, (1)23... or if 1 is the emphasized down beat: 12312312312, 12312312312. cool thought though. thank you for your input.
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 14:25
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No problem you are clearly educated in the realms of rhythm.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 14:32
Errr...yeah. I can do that stuff in my sleep.
 I think my brain just melted. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
timesignature wrote:Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 14:58
| Not really sure if this qualifies as an experiment. Also, by definition, it's not a hemiola unless it is a (perceived) shift from duple to triple time. Another point, though already articulated, is that a twelfth-note isn't part of the the conventional vocabulary of music (although one could, of course, conceive of and express a note whose duration is a twelfth of a beat: take an eighth note and follow it by two eighth rests, and group all three as a triplet). |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 15:56
It would be pretty kinky if you keep say, the guitar riff as you said and the drums at regular 7/8. At least that'd give all us fanatics trouble in calculating it. Especially if you make it change between the double and the triple calculating five altogether. Or make the melody go double-triple-double-triple and the beat/drums go triple double-triple-double. And then get a new falutist and tell them to improvise a coherent solo  As for your suggestions, I think I've heard The Flower Kings do this at least once or twice... But at the moment I can't say in which song, I'd have to go through all the albums here just calculating. But they do have these too.
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Posted By: The Letter M
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 16:11
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As a drummer, time signatures are pretty much my life (concerning prog music that is). A lot of the music I have written (in Finale) has often used anything BUT 4/4 time signatures. As a result, I vary the phrasing of them to allow changes within and across a barline.
If you want to listen to something with over-lapping and mixed up time signatures, listen to one of my recent favorites from Porcupine Tree, "What Happens Now?". At the end of the song, Gavin's bass and snare play with the bass guitar in a 7/8 groove while Gavin's right hand/ride-bell play in 6/8 and match the guitars. I am pretty sure the 8th notes aren't even together between the two, but Gavin still manages to play both together and match both the bass and rhythm guitars. It's truly amazing!
-Marc. ------------- I know what I like and I like what I know. I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will. If I die tomorrow, I`d be alright because I believe that after we`re gone, the spirit carries on. |
Posted By: akiko
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 20:29
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To quote Vinnie "I never count past 4" |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 20:40
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heres something. the drums play in 7/8. the bass plays in 4/4. the guitar plays in 9/8, and the keyboards play in 11/16. if there's horns, make them play unison lines in 6/4 alternating to 3/4
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 21:37
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Of coarse, i did not mean directly playing a complex hemiola derived time signature (although that would be cool). I meant play in a basic irregular time signature and then switch to triple which would definitely be perceived. As for the twelfth note that was just a random aside and i know the conventional method. I think this is what you were talking about... if i'm still not on the right track please do inform me, but still you have my meaning. Thank you for your input.
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 21:42
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ah! i love porcupine tree. Yes hes a polyrythm king. do not take 4/4 for granted though. besides, if you use a hemiola you will not be able to tell that the rhythm was derived from 4/4 unless you were someone like one of us. ------------- i luv prog |
Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 21:46
 that would be a neat poly rhythm, but still doesnt quite work the same way. not sure if you were just saying another idea or if you were saying the result would be the same. Thank you though for your idea.
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 21:48
 that reply was meant for dark shade.
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 21:51
no kidding. that was not meant to be taken serious, but more to help visualize the relationship better. ------------- i luv prog |
Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:17
 ahhh.... that is a unique idea. with me and my brothers band (Ryan(me-guitar, piano,and vocals), Nigel(my brother-bass guitar,and drums)) we have a heavy metal sounding guitar riff that is in 11/8 while the drums are emphasizing the triple eighth notes so the result is a kinky hemiola derived 11 time signature. But i never thought of the reverse- having the drums play 11/8 while the guitars play in a time signature such that the tempo is derived from the triplet location of the 11/8 drum beat. Definitely will experiment with that. becuz that is an experiment... some guy up top was trying to tell me what an experiment is. haha! Im a mathematics and biomedical engineer major, i think i know what an experiment is! anyhoo- back to you, thank you for your input and it was definitely a great idea! 
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:19
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My drumline was talking about this. A buddy and I were saying that the quints should play something in 7/8, the bass drummers in 3/4, and the snare in 4/4. We found out that by finding the lowest common multiple, that's where they would line up. So you would multiply 7, 4, and 3 and get 84. Then you'd divide by the time signature you're playing in to find out how many times you would have to play that until everything lined up again. So the 7/8 guy would play 12 measures, the 4/4 guy would play 21 measures, and the 3/4 guy would play 28 measures. Now the hard part is getting us to play that. The people in my drumline hated odd times last year, and this year the bass drummers can hardly play 16th notes at a regular tempo type cadence. (sigh) ------------- 
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Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 22 2008 at 22:29
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I know what your talking about. Thats more of predicting the result of a poly rhythm. like if drums were 7/8, guitar was 5/8, and bass was 6/8 they would not repeat themselves until 7*6*5=210 eighth note later which would be 30 measures of 7/8, 35 measures of 6/8, and 42 measures of 5/8. That isnt quite the same thing here. This is staying in the same timesignature but switching the beat emphasis from every duplet to every triplet. cool thought though. Thank you!
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Posted By: The Letter M
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:22
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I think exactly what you might be thinking of happens in Dream Theater's "The Mirror", where in a triplet pattern of triplet eigth notes becomes the normal eigth note (half a quarter, not a third). I used a similar method in a piece I composed which which is as follows (using your notation here): (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 | (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 (1)23 | (1)23 1(2)3 12(3) 123 | (1)23 1(2)3 12(3) 123 | In the second pair of measures, the accent moves from every three to every four, so in the two measures there, it can sound like 2 measures of 3/4 (or 3 of 2/4) with a new eigth note base. I've also done something similar with 7/8 where I would take the triplet eigths and phrase them in 7s: (1)23 (1)23 1(2)3 1(2)3 12(3) 12(3) 123 | (1)23 (1)23 1(2)3 1(2)3 12(3) 12(3) 123 | It's easier to hear using a melody, which is what I did in a keyboard lead in that pattern. It really disguises the time signature and makes you have to listen carefully! -Marc. ------------- I know what I like and I like what I know. I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will. If I die tomorrow, I`d be alright because I believe that after we`re gone, the spirit carries on. |
Posted By: timesignature
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:28
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wow! fantastic! ya, that is exactlt it! I especially love the idea with the seven phrasing! I havnt got that far yet but i was considering trying the same thing with quints. you're the first one to get it exact, and ill definitely listen through mirrors again to try and find it, thank you!
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Posted By: The Letter M
Date Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:07
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Thanks! Glad I could help... I think the proper term for this is Metric Modulation. As any good musician/music-major would know, modulation in the harmonic sense involves moving from one key to another, usually around a tonal center (such as changing from the key of A, to it's dominant, the key of E through the use of any chords in A that share tones/pitches with chords in E). The key signature might not change, but the chord progression itself reveals the key through cadences. In rhythm, modulation occurs when the note that gets the beat is changed, whether or not the time signature is the same. LIke with harmonic modulation, the time signature can still be the same, but the accented pulse will be different, forcing the listener to accept the new rhythm pattern, but there might still be underlying patterns in the old time signature. -Marc. ------------- I know what I like and I like what I know. I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will. If I die tomorrow, I`d be alright because I believe that after we`re gone, the spirit carries on. |
Posted By: GlassPrison68
Date Posted: November 26 2008 at 20:12
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I do a snare exercise like this. I was trying to think of a way of changing the tempo of a song with having cues and have it all mathematical. It starts with straight quarter notes in 4/4, then it goes into triplet eighth notes, so the beat is still based on the quarter notes, then I think of it as changing to 12/8 at a different tempo to match the triplets with the eighth notes , and then changing into 8/8 of that same tempo. 12/8 (different tempo) (1) (2) (3) (4) | (1) (2) (3) (4) | (1)23 (2)23 (3)23 (4)23 | (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 (7) 8 9 (10) 11 12 | 8/8 (1) 2 (3) 4 (5) 6 (7) 8 | (1) 2 (3) 4 (5) 6 (7) 8 | I found out that it just turns out as a double time feel. But still a fun warm up cause it keeps getting faster if you repeat the process. Play the bass drum where the ( ) are. ------------- Let the progsters find you and beat you in 7/8 time! -Jordan Rudess |