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Greywoolfe View Drop Down

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Topic: Re-assessing Asia
Posted: February 13 2009 at 07:31

Joining this discussion a little late, but I also loved Asia when they first came out, and bought their albums almost religiously during the eighties. After a while, I kind of went off them, as I wasn't as keen on John Payne's vocals as I was Wetton's, so Phoenix was a welcome addition to my collection. Not aware of the Icon material, I was pleasantly surprised at the more prog-sounding tracks, like Parallel Worlds / Vortex / Deya, and Waking Giant / No Way Back. When I looked a bit more into their turbulent history, and became aware of how Payne has tried to keep the band going at any cost (And been rewarded by a court injunction for his trouble, hence 'Asia featuring John Payne' ) I'm more accepting of Payne's material, and can listen to both versions and enjoy them equally as much.

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Posted: May 06 2008 at 15:55

Dr. Prog wrote:

The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.

punk was going on around 1973 or so in New York.

Even earlier... it was already going on around 1969 or so in Michigan.

As for Asia, I've only heard a couple of songs from them. Okay for what it is, but eighties arena rock with lots of keyboards is not a style of music that interests me much. Most of their albums have great cover art, though.

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Posted: May 06 2008 at 14:31

^^ Seconded. Chasing the Dragon and Wetton/Downes are both worth checking out.

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Posted: May 06 2008 at 12:27

Weston wrote:

I'm in reverse of jammun I think. I actually liked it when the first Asia album came out. I knew it was going to be pop or progressive pop (or prop as I liked to call it) but back then it seemed like prog had been murdered by the music industry. I thought of the album as carrying the flame disguised as pop and it even had a Roger Dean cover, which we hadn't seen in some time.

But Asia s/t was one of the last vinyl purchases I made and so eventually I stopped listening to it when the turntable stopped working correctly and we were well into CD's by then.

Now when I go back and hear it with 21st century ears, it sounds horribly dated. I'm embarrassed and turn the volume down (even though I live alone). It's the production or something that dates it.

Still, I like the harmonies. I heard Wetton do one of these songs unplugged -- somewhere, maybe a Steve Hackett DVD -- and it sounded great. So I can't fault the songwriting.
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If you like Wetton's voice and more stripped down arrangements, Wetton has a few live solo albums that are absolutely outstanding, where he does a few Asia tunes acoustically or with a more stripped down arrangement. One is called Akustica or something like that, and one is called Chasing the Dragon. The sound on both is impeccable, and with the more bare arrangements, its left to Wetton to carry the song with his voice, and he shows what great pipes he truly has---one of the best prog voices ever imo. I would definitely recommend to any fan of the first 2 Asia album to check out those Wetton solo albums. Also, his recent collaboration with Downes where they do Asia tunes together, Icons live (which led to the reunion) is also very good.

Edited by Dr. Prog - May 06 2008 at 12:29

Trademark

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Posted: May 06 2008 at 11:51

Just picked up Phoenix a couple days ago and I must say I've been pleasantly surprised. Its certainly not a 5 star release, but it has something I like going for it. I had a similar reaction to Asia back when the first Asia album came out. I had really high hopes for it and I felt pretty let down. Maybe I was hoping against hope that the changing music scene at the time would not have affected 4 guys such as them. Sole Survivor is a great tune, but the rest of the LP seemed flat to me. But I'm stubborn and I'm a completionist and I kept up with most of the Asia releases. To enjoy Asia I just have to divorce myself from the set of expectations that those 4 names can conjour up. Its a bit like Calling All Stations; if you don't try to see it as Genesis its really a pretty good listen. Phoenix seems to me to be the best they've done since the debut. 3.5 stars in Prog-Related so to speak.

jammun

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 22:51

Weston wrote:

Now when I go back and hear it with 21st century ears, it sounds horribly dated.

My 21st century ears are much more forgiving than they were back in the day. Yep, it's dated, but I'm not suggesting a steady diet of Asia, and again, I can barely get through that second disc of Anthologia. But these days I'm way more tolerant than I was then.

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 22:50

Weston wrote:

Still, I like the harmonies. I heard Wetton do one of these songs unplugged -- somewhere, maybe a Steve Hackett DVD -- and it sounded great. So I can't fault the songwriting.

Yes, I like the "Tokyo Tapes" version of Heat of the Moment.(That was the unplugged version)

The composition is not bad, I hated the arrangements, plus Steve's guitar backuping Wetton's sound very nice.

Iván

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 22:42

I'm in reverse of jammun I think. I actually liked it when the first Asia album came out. I knew it was going to be pop or progressive pop (or prop as I liked to call it) but back then it seemed like prog had been murdered by the music industry. I thought of the album as carrying the flame disguised as pop and it even had a Roger Dean cover, which we hadn't seen in some time.

But Asia s/t was one of the last vinyl purchases I made and so eventually I stopped listening to it when the turntable stopped working correctly and we were well into CD's by then.

Now when I go back and hear it with 21st century ears, it sounds horribly dated. I'm embarrassed and turn the volume down (even though I live alone). It's the production or something that dates it.

Still, I like the harmonies. I heard Wetton do one of these songs unplugged -- somewhere, maybe a Steve Hackett DVD -- and it sounded great. So I can't fault the songwriting.
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Posted: May 05 2008 at 21:56

Didn't know that I was starting discontent with this post. Just a couple of points:

I had high expectations for Asia simply because I did not know what the individual members had been doing. (I had given up on prog at that time and was listening almost exclusively to jazz and/or fusion and/or The Clash and/or Zappa in the early-80's.) But I ran into the album at my local Tower Records (now sadly demised) and saw Howe, Wetton, and Palmer in the band and thought I'd give it a try. I still maintain it's pretty good/enjoyable music for what it is.

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 21:17

Dr. Prog wrote:

I like Drama a lot, but its not nearly in the same class as GFTO of course. However, a track like GFTO surely was a preview of what Howe would be doing on Drama. In your face, almost punkish guitar playing.

I see Howe’s guitar more Neo Prog oriented in Going for the One, much more aggressive and harder, but still much more than a couple of chords played over and over. I see no or very little Punk connection, just listen most Marillion and similar bands albums and you will listen that same aggressive guitar.

And again, the song Nothing to Lose by UK, a Wetton composition, is almost IDENTICAL to the songs on the first Asia album, and would have fit very well on that Asia album. I don't care what category you and other people on PA label those groups----I trust my ears.

The song Nothing to Loose is only one among many others that UK released, I won’t judge a band by one song being other great ones and totally different, why can’t we create the parallel with others like:

Danger Money
Rendesvouz 6:02
Caesar's Palace Blues
The Only Thing She Needs
Carrying no Cross (12.20 minutes short epic)
Alaska
Time To Kill
Presto Vivace

All credited to Wetton BTW. Nothing to loose is only simpler song in a list of 14, being 13 much more complex.

Do better how? That first album is full of great melodic power prog/pop songs very well played. There is not a bad tune on the album. So it does not matter what you label it, it was good. It doesn't matter what you thought they could do, they did what they thought was best at the time.

We have a different perspective, as in GTR or other supergroups, I believe the members of ASIA gave the people what they believed was commercial,

Of course better is subjective, but I refer to a more elaborate, complex and trascendental album.

like I said, there was your mistake. If you had followed the logical progression of GFTO, UK, Wetton solo, Asia was the logical result in the context of the times. Elaborate was OUT in 1982-3.

I don’t see a progression between GFTO and UK, I believe that in the early 80's there were great Prog, Punk or AOR bands making gopod music, I made a short list (that could be increased with many more albums and bands) that were doing great Prog.

As far as I can tell, you get too hung up on labeling and black and white comparisons, instead of simply enjoying what is good well played music, regardless of the label. That's the crucial difference between me and you.

There’s another possibility, I know what I like and I search for it, not just accept whatever the bands that I love gave me. There’s a lot of great music outside the pioneers of Prog,

I don’t enjoy the music of Asia, why should I stay with it, there are many more musicians I can search for with a bit of effort that will make my musical listening a more pleasure experience. I like Prog, Pop, AOR, Jazz, etc, but ASIA is one of those bands I didn't liked.

I loved Genesis, but I stoped listening when I found I didn’t liked the music they were doing. The same happened with Yes during the Rabin years or with ELP during Works II and Love Beach, if they don’t play the music I like, I simply search for the music I like, in other pastures.

If I had stayed with this bands, listening whatever they released even if I didn’t liked it, during the 80’s and 90’s, I wouldn’t had discovered Marillion, Pendragon, IQ, Anglagard,. Par Lindh Project, etc, which I like so much.

Again I leave this dialogue before it turns into a discussion.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 06 2008 at 00:07

Dr. Prog

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 18:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dr. Prog wrote:

Yes, I had been listening Drama, which I consider the best Yes album since Relayer, with great tracks as Machine Messiah, UK was an outstanding band with 100% Prog tracks like Danger Money, Rendesvouz 6:02, Cesar's Palace Blues. Alaska, etc.

It's so clear that UK is in a real Prog sub-genre as Symphonic, while ASIA is in Prog Related which means NOT PROG.

The Buggles, made a totally different style of music when alone than when they joined Yes

So as a fact listening the names Wetton, Downlnes, but specially Palmer and Howe, I expcted something more solid, probably not epic, but at least experimental and explorative, more challenging than what ASIA is in my opinion.

Dr. Prog wrote:

and on top of all that, realized this "supergroup" was not some artificial corporate creation (as is commonly wrongly assumed) but simply the result of a writing partnership by Wetton and Downes, who wanted to in fact write good melodic prog/pop songs, than Asia was not only a very reasonable result, but a very logical result under the circumstances.

Corporate or not, it was a Supergroup, but I don't believe that ASIA is a great achievement for the importance of the musicians involved in the project, I am sure theycould do better.

Dr. Prog wrote:

Anyone who would have been expecting 20 minute Yes like epics with solos galore had to be out of their gourd. That style of music was absolutely gored by the music press who were championing prog and new wave, and completely out of favor with the public. Prog was criticized for not being able to deliver well played melodic tunes that were simple and not full of goofy fantasy stuff.

I was not expecting 20 minutes solos, that's not all what Prog is a about, I was expecting something elaborate, with interesting arrangements, not plain and simple AOR (Which is what ASIA is in my opinion).

Dr. Prog wrote:

Plus, the whole Asia thing was not some long standing build up of expectations. Not many people even knew this was coming when it came out in 1982. .I was very in tune with music at that age, and never heard anything before the album release. Wetton and Howe both have said in interviews that they never expected this to take off commercially like it did. They were completely taken by surprise by the success of the album, and quickly put together a tour before they even had enough material to tour on.

Maybe you don't live in South America.

In those days without Internet, cable or MTV (in Perú), we heard about the album 3 or 4 four months before it was released in our country, we had no samples, we only heard names like Wetton, Downes, Howe and Palmer, which made us expect a great album

At last it reached Perú and was released with great success, except among the Prog Community, then came the videos, etc and the rest is history.

[QUOTE=Dr. Prog]So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.

As I told you, nobody was expecting epics necesarilly, only some solid music, like

Cured, Highly Strung and the pompous Bay of Kings by Steve Hackett, released in that périor of time with some months of difference.
Or maybe like Script for a Jester's Tear (with a fantastic epic) by Marillion, released less than a year after ASIA and more or less coetaneous with ALPHA.
Or even like the pristine Symphonic album "Despois Do Fim" released by Bacamarte some months later.
Kenso II by Kenso.in the vein of Camel
Counterpoint by Solaris, released in 1981 as well as Penta

So as you see I understand the music scenario of those years, but I still wanted to listen Prog like Hackett or Fish's Marillion, not an album like ASIA which I believe was in the borderline of AOR and Mainstream.

It was not as you say that you could only expect bands as ASIA, there was a lot of real Prog in GB and around the world, it was only a question of searching.

Dr. Prog = red

Edited by Dr. Prog - May 05 2008 at 18:05

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 17:45

I think we should put some youth in asia.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: May 05 2008 at 17:28

Dr. Prog wrote:

It's so clear that UK is in a real Prog sub-genre as Symphonic, while ASIA is in Prog Related which means NOT PROG.

The Buggles, made a totally different style of music when alone than when they joined Yes

Corporate or not, it was a Supergroup, but I don't believe that ASIA is a great achievement for the importance of the musicians involved in the project, I am sure theycould do better.

I was not expecting 20 minutes solos, that's not all what Prog is a about, I was expecting something elaborate, with interesting arrangements, not plain and simple AOR (Which is what ASIA is in my opinion).

Maybe you don't live in South America.

At last it reached Perú and was released with great success, except among the Prog Community, then came the videos, etc and the rest is history.

Dr. Prog wrote:

So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.

As I told you, nobody was expecting epics necesarilly, only some solid music, like

Cured, Highly Strung and the pompous Bay of Kings by Steve Hackett, released in that périor of time with some months of difference.
Or maybe like Script for a Jester's Tear (with a fantastic epic) by Marillion, released less than a year after ASIA and more or less coetaneous with ALPHA.
Or even like the pristine Symphonic album "Despois Do Fim" released by Bacamarte some months later.
Kenso II by Kenso.in the vein of Camel
Counterpoint by Solaris, released in 1981 as well as Penta

It was not as you say that you could only expect bands as ASIA, there was a lot of real Prog in GB and around the world, it was only a question of searching.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 05 2008 at 17:32

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:49

tuxon wrote:

The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.

That's a nice thought there. Punk needed to happen, so Asia could come into excistence. So because of Punk new (older) bands knew they had to strive for a better link with the music fans, skimming down the pretence and just create good well thought out music. And Asia did that.

I don't think that's how he meant it

, but that's another way of looking at it.

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:45

The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.

I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When the first album was released, I had some hope, but sadly I lost it, not because IMO ASIA is not Prog, but because is not Prog, is not Pop, is a hybrid.

Fo Gods sake, Howe, Wetton, Downes and Pälmer are able to make something solid and convincing, if Boston had done this kind of music, I would had no problem at all, because that's exactly what I would expect from them, but this guys were able to do something different, stronger, with personality.

I don't know how there could have been such big prog expectations. If you had been listening to UK in the late 70s, especially the second album (listen to Nothing to Lose), and were familiar with the Drama album released by Yes in 1980, and were also familiar with the Buggles, and were familiar with Wetton's solo album at that time, and on top of all that, realized this "supergroup" was not some artificial corporate creation (as is commonly wrongly assumed) but simply the result of a writing partnership by Wetton and Downes, who wanted to in fact write good melodic prog/pop songs, than Asia was not only a very reasonable result, but a very logical result under the circumstances. Anyone who would have been expecting 20 minute Yes like epics with solos galore had to be out of their gourd. That style of music was absolutely gored by the music press who were championing prog and new wave, and completely out of favor with the public. Prog was criticized for not being able to deliver well played melodic tunes that were simple and not full of goofy fantasy stuff.

Plus, the whole Asia thing was not some long standing build up of expectations. Not many people even knew this was coming when it came out in 1982. I was very in tune with music at that age, and never heard anything before the album release. Wetton and Howe both have said in interviews that they never expected this to take off commercially like it did. They were completely taken by surprise by the success of the album, and quickly put together a tour before they even had enough material to tour on.

So all in all, anyone who was expecting some epic prog masterpiece, in the context of the reality of the times, was really not understanding the music scene at the time.

Edited by Dr. Prog - May 04 2008 at 23:44

Dr. Prog

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 23:20

The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.

punk was going on around 1973 or so in New York. Asia didn't record an album until 1982. Its kind of like saying we should have nuked Japan in 1776.

Nice try though.

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 20:11

It was the heat of the vomit. Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: May 04 2008 at 11:22

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Yep, that's the deal. I saw that lineup and had great expectations, which were sadly not fulfilled. However taken for what it is, it's not that bad, or at least that's how I view it 25 years later.

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Posted: May 03 2008 at 23:27

When the first album was released, I had some hope, but sadly I lost it, not because IMO ASIA is not Prog, but because is not Prog, is not Pop, is a hybrid.

Then the debacle started, if you have constant changes of personel (common problem in supergroups), you can't expect a constant sound in evolution.

Reminds me of GTR, the idea of Hackett and Howe together was a dream come true that turned into a nightmare.

Sorry, not muy cup of tea, I agree there's a lot of musicianship in the names, but sadly they don't show it IMO.

The Wizard wrote:

Asia proved that punk needed to happen.

Sorry to disahgree Wizard, but Punk had already happened several years before, as a fact original Punk moivement was almost something of the past when ASIA released their debut, they were already in the peak of New Wave as a diluted form of Punk.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 03 2008 at 23:31