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TheProgtologist 
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Joined: May 23 2005
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 Topic: Metallica's Master of Puppets
Posted: June 01 2007 at 12:37 |
As with the thread discussing where Metallica should possibly be placed if they were approved,which I closed,this thread can now be closed since they were rejected by the site owners.
The 14 page Metallica thread in this section I will leave open.Any further Metallica debate or discussion can take place there.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 03:48 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I'd say "Power Metal" instead of "Speed/Thrash" ... Helloween, Gamma Ray and early Blind Guardian are surely heavily influenced by Iron Maiden. But from the prog realm ... I don't see any bands which are strongly influenced by Iron Maiden, apart from the very beginnings (Queensryche - albums before Operation: Mindcrime, early Fates Warning, Crimson Glory).
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They used thrash in their music - Helloween's debut is almost pure thrash (the technique).
I call it Speed metal also, because that is how it was classified in 1986. "Ride The Sky" appears on the first "Speed Kills" compilation - a collection of Speed Metal (apparently). It's certainly a very fast track, with the emphasis seeming to be on the speed - just like Dragonforce.
You could call it "power" metal - but isn't all metal music about power in one respect or another? I always thought of power metal as bands like Skid Row and Pantera, who played hugely powerful riffs without entering into speed or thrash territory.
...anyway - that's just my usage of the term that I feel comfortable with.
These labels change over time anyway - I just like to keep then accurate 
I agree about Maiden's influence - it's not nearly as pervasive as Metallica's in Prog Metal.
Edited by Certif1ed - May 31 2007 at 03:53
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 11:12 |
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^ I'd say "Power Metal" instead of "Speed/Thrash" ... Helloween, Gamma Ray and early Blind Guardian are surely heavily influenced by Iron Maiden. But from the prog realm ... I don't see any bands which are strongly influenced by Iron Maiden, apart from the very beginnings (Queensryche - albums before Operation: Mindcrime, early Fates Warning, Crimson Glory).
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 10:19 |
mystic fred wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
I am a huge fan of Metallica's "Master of Puppets", it is very fine heavy metal album but certainly not Prog, and was a huge progressive leap forward in the world of metal 
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Why would you say it isn't prog?
Compared to other "heavy metal" albums of the time, it doesn't strike me as being standard in the least. |
i agreed to the inclusion of Iron Maiden into the Archives as prog-related due to the path they laid down for Prog-metal to follow, but Metallica follow a different path IMO, the path towards heavy metal /thrash metal (to which they succumbed) , a very clear difference to my mind. Metallica's music is IMO cleverly written, well structured and textured , and sophisticated should i say, but do not really belong here, also if they were included in PA it could open up a hornet's nest of for example "why not Black Sabbath etc..." posts. if i am wrong fair enough but that is only my opinion. at the end of the day the leaders will decide, and i will accept their decision.
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I think the latter is both the bottom line, and a concern - if Metallica were to be included, there would be an outcry from people who do not understand the reasoning behind the decision - or even hear the progressiveness in the music, however you care to relate it.
That is predictable and should be planned for - what type of argument is likely to appear, and what is the most diplomatic - and truthful - counter for each?
The bottom line is that their music is really not so different to early examples of Prog Metal, because of the sophistication it clearly exhibits, and because the same sophistication can be heard in Prog Metal.
Sure, the techniques are up a few notches - but the basics are the same.
And you can't say that about Black Sabbath - or many other metal bands at that time or for many years after. In those cases it tends to be one or two techniques, overall sound, maybe, or similarities in style.
It'd be an interesting experiment to play "MOP" back to back with a "standard" metal album, an early Prog Metal album and a more modern Prog Metal album.
I'd suggest "Angelwitch" by Angelwitch, "Operation Mindcrime" by Queensryche and "Images and Words" by Dream Theater (OK, it's not the most modern, but it is the blueprint of the modern PM style).
Maybe, if this seems a good idea, one of the PM guys could suggest better albums to compare.
The path Metallica laid down seems stronger to me than Iron Maiden's - which ties in importance with Judas Priest really (for example, witness Death's cover of "Painkiller", and also "Exciter" - the first true thrash metal song that I know of ). In fact, it's fundamental to many Prog Metal acts.
I'm not even sure, beyond Dickenson-style vocals, what influence Maiden had on Prog Metal - the musical influence seems to be more on "Speed/Thrash Metal" bands like Anthrax, Helloween and more recently, Dragonforce. Maybe I need to listen to more.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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mystic fred
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 08:26 |
Certif1ed wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
I am a huge fan of Metallica's "Master of Puppets", it is very fine heavy metal album but certainly not Prog, and was a huge progressive leap forward in the world of metal
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Why would you say it isn't prog?
Compared to other "heavy metal" albums of the time, it doesn't strike me as being standard in the least. |
i agreed to the inclusion of Iron Maiden into the Archives as prog-related due to the path they laid down for Prog-metal to follow, but Metallica follow a different path IMO, the path towards heavy metal /thrash metal (to which they succumbed) , a very clear difference to my mind. Metallica's music is IMO cleverly written, well structured and textured , and sophisticated should i say, but do not really belong here, also if they were included in PA it could open up a hornet's nest of for example "why not Black Sabbath etc..." posts. if i am wrong fair enough but that is only my opinion. at the end of the day the leaders will decide, and i will accept their decision.
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 08:12 |
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^ & ^^: *sigh* the everlasting battle between "Prog" and "progressive" ... effectively the bands listed in the archives are varying combinations of those two "traits". Some are more Prog than progressive ... some are not progressive at all ("just Prog"). And some are more progressive than Prog, and these bands are where things get interesting IMO. I'd say that Master of Puppets is not very Prog, but very progressive ... and most people agree (even mystic fred in his post above) but do not think that the band would fit in the archives. It's mostly a matter of style, not one of musical achievements, and I guess that that's what's bugging people like Certif1ed and me who like to analyse the music - and dig a little bit deeper than most fans do.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 06:52 |
mystic fred wrote:
I am a huge fan of Metallica's "Master of Puppets", it is very fine heavy metal album but certainly not Prog, and was a huge progressive leap forward in the world of metal
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Why would you say it isn't prog?
Compared to other "heavy metal" albums of the time, it doesn't strike me as being standard in the least.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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mystic fred
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 05:32 |
I am a huge fan of Metallica's "Master of Puppets", it is very fine heavy metal album but certainly not Prog, and was a huge progressive leap forward in the world of metal
Edited by mystic fred - May 30 2007 at 05:33
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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Equality 7-2521
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Points: 15784
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Posted: May 27 2007 at 22:31 |
I agree with what Cert said. It's essentially the same as a less technical Images and Words without a keyboard.
Progressive.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 12:57 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
^That would be suitable for a progmetal-archive. Just like Zeuhl-related or R.I.O related would be relevant in a Zeuhl or R.I.O-archive.
Every band and artist ever, got their influences from somewhere. |
That doesn't really answer the question though, does it... |
Why not? Based on that I think its stretching it to far to have 'related' categories to sub-genres. Obviously every subgenre would have to get their own proto, because just like Progmetal they all got their influences from somewhere.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 12:43 |
Melomaniac wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
^That would be suitable for a progmetal-archive. Just like Zeuhl-related or R.I.O related would be relevant in a Zeuhl or R.I.O-archive.
Every band and artist ever, got their influences from somewhere. |
So the idea in itself isn't bad, but not suitable for PA, if I get your statement correctly ?
Oh well, I tried ! |
Sure.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Dean
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 12:37 |
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As was pointed out in the other Metallica thread - it just neads a carefully worded Bio. This would apply to any band that sits close to the edge in any sub-genre.
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What?
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 12:20 |
Rocktopus wrote:
^That would be suitable for a progmetal-archive. Just like Zeuhl-related or R.I.O related would be relevant in a Zeuhl or R.I.O-archive.
Every band and artist ever, got their influences from somewhere. |
That doesn't really answer the question though, does it...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Arsillus
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 12:01 |
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It's "progressive" metal, but not "progressive metal." I voted slightly progressive. Good album though.
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Melomaniac
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Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Canada
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Points: 4088
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:53 |
Rocktopus wrote:
^That would be suitable for a progmetal-archive. Just like Zeuhl-related or R.I.O related would be relevant in a Zeuhl or R.I.O-archive.
Every band and artist ever, got their influences from somewhere. |
So the idea in itself isn't bad, but not suitable for PA, if I get your statement correctly ?
Oh well, I tried !
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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:34 |
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^That would be suitable for a progmetal-archive. Just like
Zeuhl-related or R.I.O related would be relevant in a Zeuhl or
R.I.O-archive.
Every band and artist ever, got their influences from somewhere.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Melomaniac
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Canada
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Points: 4088
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:22 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Melomaniac wrote:
We definitely need a PROTO PROG-METAL category... |
Hey Maniac. That's even more absurd than adding Metallica.
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I think it would make sense, as prog metal is a genre in itself, born of the fusion of metal and prog. They had to get their influences somewhere, just like prog bands were influenced by what we call proto prog bands. I don't see how the logic of this is faulty.
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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio
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Rocktopus
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:22 |
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From that other Metallica thread:
Canterbury related/jazzfusionrelated (Sun Ra, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Eric Dolphy etc)
Protoprogrelated (Kinks, Hollies, Bee Gees...)
progrelatedrelated (Coldplay, Keane, Green Day...)
Progressive electronic related (Orb, Orbital, Prodigy, Snap)
Its different being related to a subgenre of prog, than being directly related to prog.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:19 |
Melomaniac wrote:
We definitely need a PROTO PROG-METAL category... |
Hey Maniac. That's even more absurd than adding Metallica.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Melomaniac
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Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4088
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 11:19 |
^^ Join the proto prog metal campaign !!! 
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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio
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Metallica's Master of Puppets
