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penguindf12
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 20 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 831
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Topic: left or right? Posted: February 19 2005 at 19:57 |
Left - democratic socialist.
It's tough here in Oklahoma.
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 15:34 |
just gotta remind everyone that communism and democracy aren't opposites...capitalism and communism are. It's only a habit of opposition to communist (often in name only) nations that has given us this impression.
Communism can work, but like Christianity it depends on the peoples' consistent good will towards their fellow man...and so is amazingly prone to corruption and perversion. Capitalism depends on greed and aggression, and so far has been a resounding success for many.
Any successful future scheme (political, religious, etc.) will have to recognize all aspects of human nature, rather than playing one side only and attempting to bury the opposing impulses.
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Captain Fudge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 21 2004
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 238
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Posted: February 19 2005 at 05:26 |
Romania was a communist country up till 1989, and I was born in 1990. I hate communism, but socialist ideas applied to democracy are the best, and that's a proven fact.
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Teenage sucks hard -- Emo sucks even harder
Epic. Simply epic.
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mirco
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2005
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 819
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 21:14 |
Hangedman wrote:
mirco wrote:
I think that all that claims to be socialist would drastically change their minds after two o three months living in a socialist country like Cuba (not as tourist but as normal citizens). First of all, kiss this forum goodby. Forgot buying prog records. FORGOT WISKEY (oh my god, I need a zip right now!). Forgot the overall good living. But don't take my word for sure, take the risk and fo what I'm saying. |
thats right because the capatalist extreme, facism, is so much better thats why the U.S. and saddam got along right?
so now because of the way you said that whenever someone says "im right wing" ill say SO YOU SUPPORT SADDAMS WAY OF LIFE!? socialism doesnt mean communism, and capatalism doesnt mean facism. Dont say stuff like that its really ignorant. |
Hold your horses, pal. I'm not offending anybody so please don't offend me. I'm just making a statement, use some arguments to discualify mines.
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Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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Hangedman
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 03 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1261
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 18:52 |
mirco wrote:
I think that all that claims to be socialist would drastically change their minds after two o three months living in a socialist country like Cuba (not as tourist but as normal citizens). First of all, kiss this forum goodby. Forgot buying prog records. FORGOT WISKEY (oh my god, I need a zip right now!). Forgot the overall good living. But don't take my word for sure, take the risk and fo what I'm saying. |
thats right because the capatalist extreme, facism, is so much better thats why the U.S. and saddam got along right?
so now because of the way you said that whenever someone says "im right wing" ill say SO YOU SUPPORT SADDAMS WAY OF LIFE!? socialism doesnt mean communism, and capatalism doesnt mean facism. Dont say stuff like that its really ignorant.
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 17:43 |
James Lee wrote:
Mainly, I believe that placing our faith in commerce and convenience is a huge mistake. Most of our adult life revolves around earning, buying, and selling...and that strikes me as a rotten waste of the brief time we have here. The drive to industrialize, commercialize, and consumerize the planet has caused more suffering than any war or disaster in human history. And aligning this drive with "progress" and "practicality" has been, bar none, the single worst perversion of human thought. I have more moral contempt for the 'business world' than I do for rapists, racists, and serial killers combined. Especially since we can all hope not to become a rapist or serial killer, but almost nobody can hope to escape the economic infrastructure that makes all of our hands bloody.
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Spot on James - and I think that this is an issue that transcends 'isms' and questions of left or right. Perhaps the most destructive aspect of the collapse of Communism has been the new orthodoxy that claims laissez faire capitalism is the only viable way forward. It's simply a way of re-distributing wealth to the already obscenely rich, and the sooner people wake up to this the better.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 16:59 |
It's a pretty tough question- for one thing, my beliefs tend to be different in theory and in practice. I think that life is so complex that any basic statement of belief comes with a long string of qualifiers and addendum, almost always self-contradictory. I guess you could call me an Anarchic Hypocrite.
I believe strongly in the three pillars of the Bill of Rights: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. We deserve them, we rarely get them, and we usually screw them up ourselves given half a chance.
Political parties, and all other personal beliefs, are like cars; everyone is led to believe they need one, so you pick one that seems to suit you...and then you end up driving on the same damn roads, in the same directions as everyone else.
I believe in democracy to the extent that power derives from the will of the governed. However, it's pretty easy to get a majority of the people to believe lies and foolishness. And a "winner take all" approach ignores the fact that both sides of a debate can be equally valid, or equally invalid. We're all so eager to take a side, any side.
Mainly, I believe that placing our faith in commerce and convenience is a huge mistake. Most of our adult life revolves around earning, buying, and selling...and that strikes me as a rotten waste of the brief time we have here. The drive to industrialize, commercialize, and consumerize the planet has caused more suffering than any war or disaster in human history. And aligning this drive with "progress" and "practicality" has been, bar none, the single worst perversion of human thought. I have more moral contempt for the 'business world' than I do for rapists, racists, and serial killers combined. Especially since we can all hope not to become a rapist or serial killer, but almost nobody can hope to escape the economic infrastructure that makes all of our hands bloody.
I don't think society as we know it can be saved. Certainly not by any political party or leader or messiah; we need to change ourselves first. The true revolution begins in the individual, and the struggle is almost always lost as soon as it begins. Probably the only hope for the human race is to be forced to start all over again, and even then there's no guarantee we wouldn't go down the same (or other equally destructive) roads.
Without pledging my allegiance, I have the most sympathy for the hedonists who say we should just try to enjoy ourselves as our world destroys itself around us. However, I can't just laugh while I watch everything burn...so I'm forced to continue trying to improve things in my own small way while knowing how pointless it all is. In order to do that, you must compromise and set aside your reservations and deal with the world as it is, rather than mourn a lost chance at Utopia. So you grit your teeth and align yourself with something, knowing that the lesser of two evils is still really, really bad.
Which leads us right back to the usual questions, such as "left or right?"
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mirco
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2005
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 819
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 09:44 |
I think that all that claims to be socialist would drastically change their minds after two o three months living in a socialist country like Cuba (not as tourist but as normal citizens). First of all, kiss this forum goodby. Forgot buying prog records. FORGOT WISKEY (oh my god, I need a zip right now!). Forgot the overall good living. But don't take my word for sure, take the risk and fo what I'm saying.
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Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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Captain Fudge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 21 2004
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 238
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Posted: February 18 2005 at 09:34 |
I'm a socialist. I love Marx's ideas, but it's all utopic. Oh, btw, isn't Waters a socialist too?
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Teenage sucks hard -- Emo sucks even harder
Epic. Simply epic.
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Rob The Plant
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 819
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 11:03 |
tuxon wrote:
I'm a communist,
Central issues;
Freedom for Everyone (freewill, Free speach, free choice, free traffic, freedom of religion. all free)
equality of life, both intellectualy as economicly
(for those that don't know: Sovjet Union and eastern Europe
before the fall of the wall, was Fascism, it had nothing to do
with communism, same goes for all dictatorships, Communism knows no
ruling class, all men together are supposed to be in charge of the
direction, so in the end communism is also very much about
democracy) Though communism is mostly an Utopian philosophy, and
probably not possible to achieve in real life. I believe in it. |
"You may say that I'm a dremaer, but I'm not the only one."
Be happy with your country now. Canada and the Netherlands are better
off than most. Maybe our damn American neighbors are holding us back
though!
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Collaborators will take your soul.
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Cluster One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 780
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Posted: February 17 2005 at 11:02 |
I'm a goalie. Does that count?
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Marmalade...I like marmalade.
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 18:47 |
Syzygy wrote:
Embittered old lefty here. Not totally dogmatic about it, though, I believe in public ownership of utilities and essential services but industry and commerce should be left private (but not unregulated).
I believe that there is no reason why any human being on the surface of the planet should not have access to food, clothing, housing, medical treatment and education, and that if any of our alleged leaders are serious about the 'wars' on terrorism, drugs and crime then tackling poverty (absolute poverty to start with) should be the number 1 priority and this will not be achieved by military action. So there.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this.
Probably just about encapsulates my own beliefs,Syz!
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 15:04 |
Embittered old lefty here. Not totally dogmatic about it, though, I believe in public ownership of utilities and essential services but industry and commerce should be left private (but not unregulated).
I believe that there is no reason why any human being on the surface of the planet should not have access to food, clothing, housing, medical treatment and education, and that if any of our alleged leaders are serious about the 'wars' on terrorism, drugs and crime then tackling poverty (absolute poverty to start with) should be the number 1 priority and this will not be achieved by military action. So there.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Trotsky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 10:26 |
tuxon wrote:
I'm a communist,
Central issues;
Freedom for Everyone (freewill, Free speach, free choice, free traffic, freedom of religion. all free)
equality of life, both intellectualy as economicly
(for those that don't know: Sovjet Union and eastern Europe
before the fall of the wall, was Fascism, it had nothing to do
with communism, same goes for all dictatorships, Communism knows no
ruling class, all men together are supposed to be in charge of the
direction, so in the end communism is also very much about
democracy) Though communism is mostly an Utopian philosophy, and
probably not possible to achieve in real life. I believe in it. |
Maybe one day ... until then I'll be dancing out with the moonlight knight ...
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 08:19 |
I'm a communist,
Central issues;
Freedom for Everyone (freewill, Free speach, free choice, free traffic, freedom of religion. all free)
equality of life, both intellectualy as economicly
(for those that don't know: Sovjet Union and eastern Europe before the fall of the wall, was Fascism, it had nothing to do with communism, same goes for all dictatorships, Communism knows no ruling class, all men together are supposed to be in charge of the direction, so in the end communism is also very much about democracy) Though communism is mostly an Utopian philosophy, and probably not possible to achieve in real life. I believe in it.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20252
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 07:48 |
Alucard wrote:
dude wrote:
I suppose you would have to label my politics(such as they are) conservative.....
If i were in Britain i would probably vote Tory.......
If i were an American i would probably vote Republican......
given the results of the polls so far i geuss that would make me the bad guy!!
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It take all sorts!
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Well at least you are not even moreon the extreme right, wishing for the KKK as political party!!!
At least , I hope not!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20252
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 07:45 |
Not Britten or Patten the guy before them.
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Alucard
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 10 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 3888
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 07:43 |
dude wrote:
I suppose you would have to label my politics(such as they are) conservative.....
If i were in Britain i would probably vote Tory.......
If i were an American i would probably vote Republican......
given the results of the polls so far i geuss that would make me the bad guy!!
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It take all sorts!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20252
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 07:42 |
Actually, his main job/goal is managing to threaten the EEC. I forget what was the previous other British commissioner's name . He had done an outstanding job and was voted top commissioner after Karel Van Miert .
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dude
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1338
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Posted: February 16 2005 at 07:40 |
I suppose you would have to label my politics(such as they are) conservative.....
If i were in Britain i would probably vote Tory.......
If i were an American i would probably vote Republican......
given the results of the polls so far i geuss that would make me the bad guy!!
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