an honest study of "negative" prog

I don't think that there are necessarily bad bands but bad albums. I really hate many modern yes, genesis, crimson, and such. I like Kansas although it always sounded me as if Mark Farner of Grand Funk Railroad was singing there. In fact all american singers seem to have the same voice as Farner. Nonetheless there are good american bands like Echolyn. American bands I dislike are Starcastle, Cathedral (the old one) and some long Spock Beard songs. Styx is also very uneven.

stechell wrote: Well, even though it is not a so bad album (2 1/2 stars), OSI's "Free" album was a deception for me.

In my opinion, negative prog is:

MikeEnRegalia wrote: "black music" is a really general term ... could mean anything from Soul, Funk, Blues and Gospel to Rap and Hip-Hop.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Teaflax wrote: Well, you know, Italian Symph has it's own category, and the difference between that and tru-blue Symphonic Prog is far smaller than when compared to Kansas. So, Italian Prog is a veal burger, I guess. Besides, The Dixie Dregs can keep them company, and maybe Spock's Beard too.   Let me inform you that not for long. Symphonic Prog is absorbing Italan Symphonic, mostly because we don't believe there should be a sub-genre based in nationality or ethnic group unless we have at least Dutch Symphonic (Fosus, Finch, Supersister, etc), Swedish or if you wat Scandinaviian Neo Symphonic (Anglagard, Flower Kings, Par Lindh Project, etc), German Symphonic (Triumvirat, The Mice, etc), French Theatric Symphonic (Ange, Mona Lisa, etc) if you want, USA Symphonic and Latin American Symphonic (I could list 20 bands from Brazil, Argentina and Perú).   Then we will have completely ruined this place. I agree Ivan.... though I would like to see the Italian sub-genre remain seperate.  For purely selfish reasons... plus I think it is an entry way of sorts for many to break out of the 'anglo-centric' view of prog and explore the rich variety of prog that the rest of Europe has to offer.  I do agree with your logic however.... you really can't give each country it's own sub-genre... however like many things today.. tradition gets thrown by the wayside... Italian prog appears to always been a bit seperate from the rest of symphonic.... more than likely for the language barriers...  another reason why I agreed with Erik that Prog Andaluz should be seperate....  I'lll stand by what the group decides of course.. but think it is best left seperate... And, for the record: I do not give an airborne copulation if a band has had any hits or not. I am perfectly able to judge their output based on merit, rather than some spurious popularity criterion. It's AOR if it uses that kind of tonality and those kinds of harmonies.   AOR means Album Oriented Rock, and it's referred to bands that based their discography mostly in album bases and not in hit singles. The despective terminology or decadence of AOR started only in the 80's with Glam Rock. And yes, Song for America and Magnum Opus I remember as being quite good (especially the latter, unless my memory fails me - which it admittedly often does), with some minor CSNY-like moments but a lot of really nice instrumental bits. But of what I recall, those were standouts in a pretty dire bunch of tunes, and not enough to redeem the totality of their output. Then your memory is weak or you haven't heard enough, but at the end, that's your taste and you're entitled to it, we have our taste and opinion and we're entitled to it, The whole Sympghonic Team that I have the honor to lead has voted in favor of the inclusion of Kansas, and that means something for me. agree with you 100% I had a friend back in the 90's who really, really wanted to convince me of Kansas' greatness, and he was adamant that once I saw them live (opening for Yes), I would understand. And that may be one of the saddest things I have ever seen, in that it was like a parody of all that is awful and overblown about Prog.   I also went to a concert of that tour and it was terrible, but not because of the songwritting abbilities of Kansas and Kerry Livegren but for other reasons like: Most snob Yes fans were trashing Kansas before they even played, at least half of them stayed getting drunk while Kansas was playing and insulted them without ever giving a chance. For reasons we all know, Steve Walsh voice was in terrible shape in that moment, the guy just had surgery and was asked to stay away fron scenarios for a year but Steve wanted so much to be in that tour because he admired Yes that he made the effort even at the risk of his health. Kansas used a lot of 80's stuff plus songs not written by Kerry Livegren and people wanted to listen their famous songs. The paradox was that even Yes fans entered running to the hall when they played their most famous track Dust in the Wind, a song that is not liked by most Kansas fans. But have you ever asked yourself a question? If Kansas are such a crappy AOR band, why in hell doid Yes accepted them for a complete tour? So, sorry, while there are certainly many elements that are Pure Prog about Kansas, they will always be a Pork Burger to me. So...they have elements of "PURE PROG" but they will always be a Pork Burger for you? In other words doesn't matter how good they are or how many real prog elements they have you will always see them as a bad band.....IMO this is called prejudice. or closed-minded ahhahah   If Kansas is  Pork burger for you, then  Italian Symphonic is spaguetti Prog, Spanish Symphonic is paella Prog, German Symphonic is frankfurter prog and Latin American Symphonic is Banana  Prog for you and a lot of snobs. hahahha.... Learn to appreciate the differences and peculiarities of Prog around the world if you don't do so, you're loosing a lot of great music, but if you can't do that, then at least respect other people's tastes.   Iván

Teaflax wrote: Well, you know, Italian Symph has it's own category, and the difference between that and tru-blue Symphonic Prog is far smaller than when compared to Kansas. So, Italian Prog is a veal burger, I guess. Besides, The Dixie Dregs can keep them company, and maybe Spock's Beard too.   Let me inform you that not for long. Symphonic Prog is absorbing Italan Symphonic, mostly because we don't believe there should be a sub-genre based in nationality or ethnic group unless we have at least Dutch Symphonic (Fosus, Finch, Supersister, etc), Swedish or if you wat Scandinaviian Neo Symphonic (Anglagard, Flower Kings, Par Lindh Project, etc), German Symphonic (Triumvirat, The Mice, etc), French Theatric Symphonic (Ange, Mona Lisa, etc) if you want, USA Symphonic and Latin American Symphonic (I could list 20 bands from Brazil, Argentina and Perú).   Then we will have completely ruined this place. And, for the record: I do not give an airborne copulation if a band has had any hits or not. I am perfectly able to judge their output based on merit, rather than some spurious popularity criterion. It's AOR if it uses that kind of tonality and those kinds of harmonies.   AOR means Album Oriented Rock, and it's referred to bands that based their discography mostly in album bases and not in hit singles. The despective terminology or decadence of AOR started only in the 80's with Glam Rock. And yes, Song for America and Magnum Opus I remember as being quite good (especially the latter, unless my memory fails me - which it admittedly often does), with some minor CSNY-like moments but a lot of really nice instrumental bits. But of what I recall, those were standouts in a pretty dire bunch of tunes, and not enough to redeem the totality of their output. Then your memory is weak or you haven't heard enough, but at the end, that's your taste and you're entitled to it, we have our taste and opinion and we're entitled to it, The whole Sympghonic Team that I have the honor to lead has voted in favor of the inclusion of Kansas, and that means something for me. I had a friend back in the 90's who really, really wanted to convince me of Kansas' greatness, and he was adamant that once I saw them live (opening for Yes), I would understand. And that may be one of the saddest things I have ever seen, in that it was like a parody of all that is awful and overblown about Prog.   I also went to a concert of that tour and it was terrible, but not because of the songwritting abbilities of Kansas and Kerry Livegren but for other reasons like: Most snob Yes fans were trashing Kansas before they even played, at least half of them stayed getting drunk while Kansas was playing and insulted them without ever giving a chance. For reasons we all know, Steve Walsh voice was in terrible shape in that moment, the guy just had surgery and was asked to stay away fron scenarios for a year but Steve wanted so much to be in that tour because he admired Yes that he made the effort even at the risk of his health. Kansas used a lot of 80's stuff plus songs not written by Kerry Livegren and people wanted to listen their famous songs. The paradox was that even Yes fans entered running to the hall when they played their most famous track Dust in the Wind, a song that is not liked by most Kansas fans. But have you ever asked yourself a question? If Kansas are such a crappy AOR band, why in hell doid Yes accepted them for a complete tour? So, sorry, while there are certainly many elements that are Pure Prog about Kansas, they will always be a Pork Burger to me. So...they have elements of "PURE PROG" but they will always be a Pork Burger for you? In other words doesn't matter how good they are or how many real prog elements they have you will always see them as a bad band.....IMO this is called prejudice.   If Kansas is  Pork burger for you, then  Italian Symphonic is spaguetti Prog, Spanish Symphonic is paella Prog, German Symphonic is frankfurter prog and Latin American Symphonic is Banana  Prog for you and a lot of snobs.   Learn to appreciate the differences and peculiarities of Prog around the world if you don't do so, you're loosing a lot of great music, but if you can't do that, then at least respect other people's tastes.   Iván

Well, you know, Italian Symph has it's own category, and the difference between that and tru-blue Symphonic Prog is far smaller than when compared to Kansas. So, Italian Prog is a veal burger, I guess. Besides, The Dixie Dregs can keep them company, and maybe Spock's Beard too.

And, for the record: I do not give an airborne copulation if a band has had any hits or not. I am perfectly able to judge their output based on merit, rather than some spurious popularity criterion. It's AOR if it uses that kind of tonality and those kinds of harmonies.

And yes, Song for America and Magnum Opus I remember as being quite good (especially the latter, unless my memory fails me - which it admittedly often does), with some minor CSNY-like moments but a lot of really nice instrumental bits. But of what I recall, those were standouts in a pretty dire bunch of tunes, and not enough to redeem the totality of their output.

I had a friend back in the 90's who really, really wanted to convince me of Kansas' greatness, and he was adamant that once I saw them live (opening for Yes), I would understand. And that may be one of the saddest things I have ever seen, in that it was like a parody of all that is awful and overblown about Prog.

So, sorry, while there are certainly many elements that are Pure Prog about Kansas, they will always be a Pork Burger to me.

I was actually listening to a lot of King Crimson today, but I just don´t see why it is so highly praised. It all sounds like a bad trip.

Some of the samples of Van Der Graff Generator (especially Man-Erg) and the sample of MArs Volta in progarchives are some of the most painful music I've ever heard in my life.

Xenoxen wrote: I think Tool are very low quality. They really are just metal.   Also Dream Theater very low.