Genesis/Yes comparison

One thing I've noticed with ELP fans is that they insist their band must be rated highly or above other bands. I haven't seen this to the same extent with fans of other bands. Any idea why this is so ? >.

It's funny being  a fan.  We all like all these bands but we are a fan of one or two. I, for one, never said that ELP should be rated above other bands, just that their contributions to prog are quite important and as important as any other band. Pink Floyd and Genesis are so highly rated and I think a part of that is justified because they give prog the better part of its narrative, or its dominant narrative.  I have just tried to show that actually the link between Wish You Were Here and Supper's Ready is Karnevil #9, as you can read in the Jerusalem thread.

I, for one like the Works records and I am not alone of this site in this regard. One reason is that the level of musicianship is at a very high standard, especially on tracks like Fanfare and Pirates. I do think Works One would have faired better without the piano concerto. Works Two is an album of outtakes and singles but still at a very high level of musicianship. It was meant to be just that, an album of outtakes. That's how it was billed and that's what we knew we were getting when we bought it.  Likewise, Emerson gave a whole interview in Musician magazine explaining the problems with the making of Love Beach; he never tried to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. One can say what one wants about his theatrics and exhibitionism, he has never lost credibilty as a musician from that stand point. I was sixteen when works came out and as a musician I am thankful that I could hear this type of music, which kids today do not have. Their favorite drummer is Tommy Lee and they have no ear for keyboard harmony. And if prog history should lose ELP, it would not be for the better.

I think that it is unfair to make an assessment of ELP based on what happened later. ELP could not develop a style in line with what was expected in 1979 the way Genesis did. Genesis were song writers all along, afterall.  Collins loved R and B, and Gabriel American soul, so they went back to their roots.  ELP's roots were in prog. They had no where to "fall back."

I think a lot of the kind of animosity that one sees like here is deeply rooted in the history of the music.  Emerson loved Genesis and was a big supporter but when ELP got big he did not take them along for the ride. In 1973, Genesis toured the States with Lou Reed; that could not have been too good.  After Gabriel left I think Collins felt that Genesis was left out to dry not only by Gabriel but the prog elite as well.  Well, they were all on hiatus.  But then in 1980 when Genesis hit it big time, I bet there were more then a few Big 5 bands that wished they could have "pulled in a favor."

My version of 70s prog history ends like this.  ELP decides to do a series of tours that host guests like Elton Dean or Mel Collins. One of these guests is Steve Hackett who does a tour with ELP in 1983-4. On the last leg of the tour the group supports Genesis to pull in a favor.  Hackett reunites with Genesis and all is forgotten.

TOD KREMER wrote: Ivan Melgar Morey wrote: ken4musiq wrote: ELP vanished in 1974, when they came back they had some credit which partially lost with Works I, specially Lake's insipid side and  Emerson's boring Piano Concerto N° 1. Works II was even worst, instead of picking up the pieces they took some leftover tracks and made an album worst than the previous, the credit was very small at this point, then they were forced to release another album to honour a contract for which they had already been paid, and they relased Love Beach in revenge, but the fan was the one that paid the bill. They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from Trespass to W&W is one thing and after they lost the frontman, lyricist and vocalist, plus Steve Hackett it was almost as another band. But ELP has no excuse, they had the same members, and the talent, but they lost the imagination, that's why ELP is hated by many people who foget masterpieces as Trilogy and BSS because of the mediocre work they made later. Iván

 Whereas  after Works ELP were filling disks with very little content of any description and thus on the Works tour they went bust.But BSS , Trilogy , Tarkus and ELP are great albums and latter producations do not change that.

 One thing I've noticed with ELP fans is that they insist their band must be rated highly or above other bands. I haven't seen this to the same extent with fans of other bands. Any idea why this is so ?

They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from >>

This is exactly what I am talking about. 

Firstly, you site all this rubbish as though it is fact.  You never say I think or in your opinion so don't get off on me because I have a differing opinion, which is exactly what you are doing and blaming me for doing.  You never respond to my posts that are insightful and interesting.  Only when I say Genesis is overrated, which I did not start and really is a trite thing to say but like I've said before, it gets people to repsond.  This was a battle that was here when I came and will be going on long after I have tired of it, which I have. In addition, in the last month I have listen to Selling England, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme about five times, Foxtrot about 15 about times.  Get Em Out By Friday is my favorite prog track I have said that before; I always defend it. Does that sound like a person who really has any issue with Genesis, the band?

Secondly, Genesis for all of its greatness released Duke and the like.  They got rid of Steve Hackett who you would admit was a major part of the greatness of the band sound. Gabriel released So and it had such lovely ditties as Sledgehammer and Big Time, which were catered to us ad naseum for the better part of 1986. But Genesis gets a big pass on all this and we can pick on Emo, well everyone knows he's a big egomaniac anyway. Well, I am just here to say. I am tired of that, as well.

ivan_2068 wrote: Overrated means that they recieve more crefit than they deserve, which I believe is false. If we were talking about a local or even National Radio/Magazine where people jusst go and vote, I may agree, because the average listener (Not trying to be despective but realistic) votes for the coolest musician or the one that is in the peak of popularity. But when you come to a specialized site (Not only  Prog' but also Rock, Jazz or even Punk), you find people that really cares for the genre, in the case of Prog most of us tend to over analyze the music, we lcarefully studu the influences, structures, instruments, musicians, tempos, etc). And the people in Prog Arcchives not only care about one band, we normally love a whole lot of bands. People here or in any respectable site, not only votes for a band on a list, we take time to review albums, to explain our arguments, so I believe Genesis or any top 100 band and album deserves what they get, the lurkers that come and give contradictory ratings usually don't exceed the 5%, so I believe in the results. If you add that not only here, but in Prog Archives, GEPT, Progressor and every site from the Progressive Rock Webring Genesis is well rated, well I start to think that you underrate Genesis. Iván

I understand that the great preference for Genesis is universal and even in the literature there has been a developing preference for Genesis over the last ten years. When I say that they are over rated I am saying that they are ganered more support than bands like Jethtro Tull, ELP Yes or Crimson when musically none of these bands is any better than any other band and again, are best understood as a whole. For us as ELP fans it is an insult to come to a site and see that people have underrated our band.  ELP in many ways defined the genre back in 1974, for better and worse. That should grant them a lasting place of influence in the annuls of prog rock.  To do otherwise is to rewrite history.

[/QUOTE]
I suppose I just fail to see the scales tipped as such in my boys' (Genesis')
favor. Isnt there another thread going right now on how uncharcteristic
and unprecedented an upset it is that the top album in the sitewide poll
belongs to Genesis rather then Yes anyhow? The proof is in the perverbial
pudding. People normally vote yes to Yes!! PInk Floyd I absolutely
understand, the import and gentle while still somehow menacing quality
of their mid period 70s albums obviously took them above and beyond
any progger's expectation for celebrity (if you want to label them as true
progressive many in these ranks might not get behind the dialogue.)
As for Genesis, I just have a hard time seeing how their earlier,
progressive works have instilled as much of a legacy on popular culture
as Yes' output during their 'classic' period. No one is contesting that
'Invisible Touch' outsold 'Close to the Edge' by some nations' national
deficit. I don't see how that should factor into the bands fanciful,
symphonic past being similarly bloated into public recognition as their
80s pop output. If anything, my feeling has always been the success of
later period Genesis moved their earlier works even FURTHER from the
public's scope of consumption, if not overshadowing it entirely. You
might think it would provide a linking back effect and that album sales for
your 'Foxtrot's' and 'Selling England's' would be stimulated. I'm sure
there's been some trickle, but the indellible stamp Collins' Genesis had on
the band's past is so blaringly obvious to me, I have a hard time reflecting
on how, again, MY genesis became overrated. Yes outshined Genesis in
the early to mid 70s strictly commercially speaking by miles. And in the
canons of progressive rock, Yes have always been mentioned before any
other band in my experience, often times Genesis' admission a secondary
or nonexistent one due to the (IMO) dwindling of the mythic, progressive
qualities their own 80s fluff curtailed.

Long story short, I see what you mean about Floyd, but as these Yes vs.
Genesis threads have often boiled down to, people find Yes' brand of
prog more accesible and more 'classic' sounding (hence it always being
played on classic rock radio) then Genesis who while still crafting some
endearingly memorable melodies failed to have a 'hit' appeal during their
progressive years. In fact, Tony Banks admits that up till Gabriel's
departure, the band would write songs intuitively which, if later pointed
out to have hit appeal, would be intentionally scrapped. That sounds like
obstinate, intentional obscurity to me. And in a way, I cherish that
approach if it yielded those kind of results!
If I start hearing 'The Lamb' or even 'I know what I like' (or, god forbid, a
'Cinema Show') on classic rock radio AT ALL, I might start seeing your
point.[/QUOTE]

It is sometimes hard to state a point without overstating it.  My favorite band is ELP, whom I prefer to either Yes or Genesis.  I'm a fan in that sense as you are a Genesis fan and others are Yes fans.  Yes is certainly represented well but ELP is not so certainly ELP is underated from that perspective. Perhaps the new book on ELP by Ed Macan coming out in April will remedy that. I would like to see more recognition for the contribution of Brain Salad Surgery, which is as important as The Court, Foxtrot, Thick as a Brick or any classic prog album.  I don't like the fact that ELP's relevence is being written out of prog history. The question as to why lies in how people feel about popularity and also sarcasm, satire and humor in music. They love satire in Floyd because it is so serious, but hate it in ELP.  You listen to Wish You Were Here and feel like slitting your wrists, but ELP talks about the same thing with humor and adds Benny the Bouncer to the mix. 

I think that where we can agree is that popularity should not designate how we listen to music or feel about the music we like and if anything this is what I was saying and trying to make a point about the avant-garde/popular contradition in classic prog. Your quote about Banks is interesting, as the reality that Genesis classic period does not fair well on classic rock radio, which I agree certainly does speak in their favor.  I think the Banks quote is questinable because songs like "I Know What I Like" do have a certain commercial appeal and even Watcher of the Skies could have been a hit. I have also read quotes from the band that said the opposite, that indeed they were trying to find a popular voice. Then beautiful thing about these bands is that they are all unique.  If finding that voice would have meant Genesis' losing their uniqueness, I am glad they steered from it. The only reason why some early Genesis songs were not a hit is a question to me, since back in the day this music was so popular. Scott Muni played the full Supper's Ready on WNEW in NY, though I could never get that station out where I lived.  If I had I would have gotten into Genesis much earlier.