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Direct Link To This Post Topic: why modern prog doesn`t suck
    Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:58

Thank you prog o matic for demonstrating how not to conduct a civil argument.

This thread will be closed and a warning issued.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:57

Originally posted by s1ipp3ry s1ipp3ry wrote:

Hmmmm   lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that

Look Slippery I have nothing to explain because my more than 3,500 posts speak for me,´people know me here and I never ecver offended any nation, much less USA which I defend always because I believe in their polititical system.

But, lets see, before accepting the fact that I insulted USA read my posts quoted by other members:

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Posted: February 15 2006 at 01:25 | IP Logged Quote s1ipp3ry

ivan_2068 wrote:
prog o matic wrote:

Maybe prog isn`t the same as it was but the world isn`t the same. 

Back in the 70`s we trusted our kids to walk to school alone but not these days I`m sorry to say ! Once God meant the ten commandments these days God can also mean putting a backpack on your back and blowing up innocent people because they are Christians or because they are Jews, 

Sorry to say this, but the world was always the same, probably not for USA citizens because they lived in a bubble of seccurity, they felt invulnerable because since =Pearl Harbor they were never attacked again in their land, but in the rest of the world was exactly the same.

Black September kidnapped and killed the Israel Olimpic team in 1972. 13 November 1972 was in Paris the Syrian journalist Khodr Kamon (36) killed by arabs, he was working on an article about Black September. 8 December was Dr Mahmoud Hamshari (34) the PLO representant in Paris blown up by the Mossad.

The Baader Meinhoff and The Red Brigades kept Germany and Italy in terror during all the 70's.

 or taking a trip in an airoplane only to find terrorists have taken control and are going to give you a grand tour of the world trade centre ! 

The rate of highjacked airplanes taken to Cuba, African countries or USSR was much higher than today if I'm not wrong.

27 June 1976 was an Air France plane highjacked by members of Haddad's group and some caucasians, the plane landed in Entebbe, Uganda. Amin the leader of Uganda worked with the terrorists and an Israeli commando freed the hostages at night and killed the terrorists. The killed were PLO members but also were killed the RAF members Gabriele Krocher Tiedemann an Wilfried Bose.

The worlds not the same I`m not the same you are not the same and the World is not the same !

The problem is that USA citizens don't realize there's violence unless it knocks their door, but the world was as violent and even worst than today, because we all lived in terror that the cold war between USA and USSR became nuclear hot in any moment.

I believe prog being a advanced form of expression (art) reflects social values for its periodic audience that in which its aimed, it is little wonder modern prog can sometimes be bleak and a tad depressing with all that is going on !  its our way of accepting the state of the world and what its going through at this point of time.  The 70`s offered us such great fantasy elements and positive thoughts, some day soon when the craziness stops we may just return to those aspects in prog but for now theres some pain to work through and modern prog is just reflecting that ! 

Fantasy world? Go ask the people who lived in Chile, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Israel, Germany, all Middle East if it was a fantasy era.

The fantasy era died with the hippies when they crashed with reality in the early 70's.

Iván


"there is nothing to fear but fear itself" or is there ?

Yes there is something to fear, and that is blindness, caring only for what happens inside the border of our countries is more frightening than anything.

BTW: There wasgreat Prog in the 70's, 90's and 2000's.

But Prog o matic doesn`t say where he is from in his profile ? why do you think he is from America ? isn`t that a bit of a stab in the dark ivan ?

THIS IS MY FIRST POT QUOTED BY YOU SLIPPERY....IS THERE ANY INSUKLT OR OFFENCE TO USA?

____________________________________________________________ __________________

Posted: February 15 2006 at 02:01 | IP Logged Quote ivan_2068

prog o matic wrote:

Another thing is the isolated incidents you’re talking about were not having Global significance not in the same way slept 11 was. 

 

I have the biggest simpathy for USA, anybody who knows me here is concious I'm anti communist and like the American way of live.

 

But for God's sake, what a bloody arrogants are some of you!!!!

 

Sept 11 was significant for you, and it affected all of us because we saw with horror what happened, but honestly The World Trade Centre as repulsive and criminal as it is, has the same significance for the rest of the world as what happens in Perú, England, Israel or Japan.

 

But you closed your eyes when Pol Pot killed 50% of the population of Cambodia, when Pinochet killed people in Chile, when Shinning Path killed 30,000 Peruvian citizens, when the Baader Meinhoff lept Germany in terror, when The Red Brigades kept Germany in terror, ehen IRA and ETA kept ENGLAND (YES ENGLAND) and Spain in constant alert.

 

When all an Olimpic team is killed in Munich and the rest of the world keeps playing their sports as if nothing had happened.

 

Yes, we live in little places, but a live of a USA citizen is as valuable as the life of any person in the world, if you don't understand that, you don't understand the legacy of democracy and respect of human rights in USA Constitution and in the rest of the coivilized world.

 

Honestly I don't know if yopu're arrogant or just ignorant.

 

The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan ! So Globally we are all caught up in it, These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population,

 

Now I don't believe you're ignorant, you're just stupid.

 

 Both Britain & USA were happy in the 70`s and that’s where most of the better prog (most popular at the time) was coming from at that time in the 70`s and that I believe is a fair and valid claim that pretty much ends this debate  !

 

I don't believe GB was happy in the 70's with the Irish crisis and the IRA, but it's a waste of time talking with such an arrogant moron.

EDIT: Another prove of your total lack of knowledge is claimingthat the best Prog came in the 70's from USA.

USA except Kansas and a couple of good bands had nothing relevant, the best Prog vcame from UK, Italy, Netherlands, Germany etc.

Iván

THIS IS MY SECOND POST QUOTED BY PROG O MATIC, SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE I COULD CHANGE IT

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Posted: February 15 2006 at 06:25 | IP Logged Quote erlenst

ivan_2068 wrote:

Littlewashu5, what happened in USA on 9/11 was not a problem of USA only, it was a problem of all the world, because one life is worth anywhere and terror must be rejected.

But what happened in Perú (30,000 victims of terrorism), Chile (You know better than me), Cambodia, Munich Olympic Village, Germany, Italy, Israel, Prague (After the famous spring), Entebbe, Vietnam,  etc is also important for the rest of the world.

Idiots like prog o matic who say that what happens in little countries is not important, are an offense for all civilization.

Guys who say I live well, so I don't care for the rest of the world are leeches, even if they are from USA, Perú, Japan, Norway or Israel, but I seen few people as arrogant, empty minded and despective as prog o matic.

Iván

 





Thank you Ivan for pointing out all these things !

THIS IS MY THIRD POST QUOTED BY ERLENST, WHICH I CAN'T CHANGE, IT'S ALSO QUOTED BY A COUPLE OF OTHER MEMBERS, AND THE ONLY THING I DO IS TO TALK THE TRUTH, THE ATTACK AGAINST USA WAS AN ATTACK AGAINST THE WORLD

____________________________________________________________ _

prog o matic wrote:
Come on I was very much baited (by Ivan) into making a few remarks (many of which he claims I said are untrue so hes not being honest and I make no apoligy for that remark .. just scroll back to verify )  

I knew you wouldn't apologize, because you believe you're the center of the world, and again I live from making investigations and using deduction to solve judicial cases, your phrases clearly show you live in USA, you're a Christian (Probably reborn) and the only things that affect you are those that happen in your lawn.

All people are equal in my Book no counrty is more important to the next ,

Are you sure?

Prog o matic wrote:

Quote:
These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population

So...your own words prove that according to you, "little places" i was taking about don't matter for the big population:

  1. Almost 2'000,000 humans killed in Cambodia with plastic bags in the head to save bullets.
  2. 30'000 humble peasents killed in Perú by Shinning Path, who started their offensive in the late 70's.
  3. Bolivia changing Governments even three times in a month with victims in each case.
  4. Not precised thousand of persons killed in Chile by Pinochet's Government
  5. I can't remember how many dissapeared citizens in Argentina by the Military Government
  6. People from Ireland and England killing themselves every day during the 70's
  7. People from Israel being attacked by terrorists daily or kidnapped and taken to Entebe where Idi Amin helped the terrorists.
  8. A whole Olympic team massacred in Germany by Black September while the world kept playing, the world didn't even had the decency to close the olympic games.
  9. American and VC soldiers and civilians killed each day in war that didn't ended.
  10. Italian civilians and even Aldo Moro killed by explosions created by the Red Brigades or kidnapped and killed.
  11. Baader Meinhoff, one of the most bloody terrorist movements kept Germany in terror.
  12. Millions of citizens in Romania, Hungary, Poland and behind the iron curtain living without freedom.
  13. Millions of Jewish and disidents sent to the gulags and Siberia only for having disagreements with the Politboureau
  14. Millions killed by Idi Amin Dada who according to some people practiced canibalism (Not proved though)
  15. The whole world threatened by a nuclear holocaust because of the cold war.
  16. Afghanistan invaded by the Soviet Union (But in those days USA supported Afghanistan).
  17. Thousand of cubans escaping from death in rafts to Miami.
  18. Dictators as Stroesnner and Somoza still in the Government of their countries, being the alternative communist revolutions supoported by Cuba and USSR (In other words they had to jump from a boilling pot of water to hot pan full of oil).
  19. Millions of black South Africans were treated worst than animals in their country by a small minority during the criminal Apartheid.
  20. And many more that the rest of the members mentioned.

All this means nothing to the world according to you, because "These little places you are talking about are either here nor there for the greater population".

And who is the "great population" that ignores what happens in the world? Probably a bunch of rednecks who give a bad name to USA decent citizens.

But you could send your kids alone to school, the Ten Commandments ruled and we had great Prog, so it was the paradise. 

 If I was you I would properly read the whole post to properly put this thing into context,  just to exercise some fairness into things   Besides Ivan said some really stupid things

Which are the stupid things I said?

Every fact I mentioned is historic, it happened, I don't close my eyes, I worry about what happens ariound the world, maybe I'm stupid because I believe in justice for all mankind and that a human life in USA, China, Spain or Argentina is worth the same.

Was I the one who said that the world was a paradise in the 70's, that people on little countries don't count?

I never took things out of the context, I quoted fully your posts, word by word and aberration by aberration.

 so focus on your collaborater or rather question his motive  

My motive is to ask respect for lives in any part of the world, not only in big or little countries.

If you read my pervious discussions of Politics with intelligent guys like Trotsky you'll see that my political position is closer to USA than to any other country, I have been accused of facist, pro USA, etc, because I criticize what happens in any part of the world, I believe that freedom and democracy in USA is the best thing that could ever happened.

I'm pleased that the State Imperialism of USSR fall as a sand castle, I believe in freedom of all countries to choose their way of live, which was impossible in the 70's with a wall dividing Europe, so I don't have any hidden agenda.

While you were sending your kids to school alone and liing according to the Ten Commandments (For, you and tour closest relatives of course) I studied in a University dominated by radical Communists for 25 years, I was member of a group that brought democracy back to the students in a country where this was dangerous.

After we gained control there was never another strike (Before us, 50% of the years were lost in student strikes) so don't tell me I have hidden motives.

This forum  is full of USA citizens and most of them have shown a great sensibility for what happens around the world, some even care for the rights of the animals, but you say that what happens in little places doesn't matter and are only isolated cases.

Your sectarism is so great that you say:  "Once God meant the ten commandments"

Maybe for you (as a Christian) me as a Catholic and the Jewish community, but not for Hinduists who live in small countries as India with 700'000,000 believers or Moslems all around the world (There are decent ones who don't believe in violence) or the Budhists, Shintoists, etc.

It's obvious that you believe the world rotates around you, your community, your religion and your country, what happens in the "Little places" has no importance 

 (for the record the world econemy is based around how well America is doing )

I believe that Japan dominates the World economy (The most powerful banks are from Japan) and the Euro is stronger than the Dollar, so don't be so confident

War is about dollars , America has the wealth and is the only remaining Super Power, so Face reality (no I am not American) 

Maybe you're not USA native citizen  (But I believe you are, because only a USA resident calls him American when America means more than just USA), but you live in the small comfort of your "Christian" community (Real Christians care for the rest of the world as Jesus Christ taught us) and the rest of little places can go to hell.

 but any fool knows that compared to America we are all little countries (just a figure of speech) please  wake up !   

Don't change your words, that's not what you meant, your words are quoted and your despective comments talk for you:

Quote:
The sad fact of life is if America is cool the world keeps turning the same way but if America isn’t cool then sh(i)t hits the fan !

Only a redneck would speak words like this ones.

 

Iván

TGHIS IS MY FOURTH POST WITHOUT EDITIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now Slíppery WHERE CAN YOU FIND A SINGLE OFFENCE AGAINST USA??????

There's even one of my posts QUOTED BY YOU SLIPP3RY, and you know I can't change what is already quoted.

Before you speak, read, even you quoted my posts, I only said good things about USA.

A big piece of crap as Prog O Matic can't give a single prove that I even dared to attack USA but you believe him, read my posts, read my background, I love to debate, I debated wityh a lot of members, but everybody hete is wittnessthat I never offended anybody.

Thanks Fragile DT and the other guys for the support.

Now I hope the dministrators do something against this guy PROG O MATIC.

And you SLIPP3RY BETTER READ BEFFORE MAKING ECHO ABOUT STUPID ACCUSATIONS BY THIS WORM CALLED PROG O MATIC

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:26
Originally posted by s1ipp3ry s1ipp3ry wrote:

Hmmmm   lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that


??

Does anbody in here actually READ HIS POSTS ???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 11:25
Originally posted by prog  o  matic prog o matic wrote:

Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think 

Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.

If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!

Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.

I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.

Iván

Update !!!  .... Ivan edited out all his offensive remarks about America before I could get the chance to reveal what lies behind His mask (like I didn`t expect that upon his generous invite in the first place)   I rest my case knowing at least I have maintained my integrity  


OH COME ON !!! How can you be so pathetic ??
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:52
Originally posted by s1ipp3ry s1ipp3ry wrote:


Hmmmm   lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has
some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame
because I thought higher of him than that


What are you talking about? I've read both sides of this conversation and I
can't imagine why you would think this.
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:51
Originally posted by prog  o  matic prog o matic wrote:

Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:


Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

hard to find anything to like about this goofball,
he has got issues in the mind I think 


Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.


If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show
everybody who you are!!!!!


Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm
incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs,
political or sexual orientation.


I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this
reasons.


Iván

Update !!!  .... Ivan edited out all his offensive
remarks about America before I could get the chance to reveal what lies
behind His mask (like I didn`t expect that upon his generous invite in the
first place)   I rest my case knowing at least I have maintained my
integrity  


What are you talking about? I've had many conversations with Ivan on this
board and read many of his convo's on various issues and I KNOW for a
fact that what you are saying is not true.

And what holds offensive in your eyes may not be offensive in anothers.
You might be a big Bush fan and love the administration and how they are
running the US while I think we are going to be facing an economic
collapse in the near future (backed by reasons I don't feel like getting
into.) That may offend you but you know what, it's someone's insight.
One thing you should remember is, you can't have an opinion or point of
view WITHOUT knowing about the topic you are discussing. For example,
I can't argue about reasoning behind an economic collapse if I DON'T
know about it. That's all you're doing.

I'm sorry I tried not to get involved but reading the conversation got me
angry enough to post.
One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:32
Hmmmm   lets just say its looking like from what I have just read Ivan has some explaining to do because his integrity is at stake, and thats a shame because I thought higher of him than that

Edited by s1ipp3ry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 09:07
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think 

Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.

If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!

Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.

I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.

Iván

Update !!!  .... Ivan edited out all his offensive remarks about America before I could get the chance to reveal what lies behind His mask (like I didn`t expect that upon his generous invite in the first place)   I rest my case knowing at least I have maintained my integrity  


Edited by prog o matic
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 07:29
Originally posted by prog  o  matic prog o matic wrote:

Originally posted by erlenst erlenst wrote:

Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will)  though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory

Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !



Actually, he proved that everything you said was wrong, and I am quite impressed to be honest. You are making an ass out of yourself by appearing to be offended in that way. It seems as though you haven't used your "depth and insight" one little bit about all the things Ivan has just pointed out.
I am sorry to hear you  feel that way, though I believe it is only to suck up to a collaborater for hope of a promotion on this site , I can see your motive and thats why you sold out your logic so cheaply, just stay in with the in crowd , just like back in high school  


Hehe, well I guess this proved to everybody what kind of a person you really are. Sorry I interfered, I guess that was a bad idea.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:28

Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think 

Find it, quote me offending USA, you accused me, I dare you.

If you accuse without any argument you're nothing but a LIAR, show everybody who you are!!!!!

Anybody who know me for three years in this site knows that I'm incapable of attacking anybody for his place of birth, beliefs, disbeliefs, political or sexual orientation.

I have more than 3,500 posts and never attacked anybody for this reasons.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:20
hard to find anything to like about this goofball, he has got issues in the mind I think 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:10

I offended America

Please. somebody rational (this excludes the troll) quote me to see if this is true.

I only expressed sympathy for The united States of Amerivca and said 9/11 was not a problem of USA but a problem of all the world.

How can you have studied  Philosophy, Theology. Chemistry and taught Jazz for 30 years if you don't even know to read.

Iván

BTW:

<<  drum teacher    30  years (jazz)   theory

<< Piano (20 years)

<< theology and philosophy degree and I`m a chemist     

This means you have 80 years  How can you work as a chemist, Piano and Drum teacher at the same time, plus secveral years of Philosophy and Teology and still have time to post several times a day in the forum

Funny



Edited by ivan_2068
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 02:03
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Erlenst, don't feed the troll, it was my mistake.

Nobody who has studied Philosophy and Theology can consider that live of people outside a determined country has a lower value.

Let their words describe them, and this guy has done a good job describing himself.

Iván

BTW: Erlenst knows that no Collaborator can give a promotion in this place only the owners. And it will be funny seing someone licking a$$es for a promotion that only means you have to work more and for free

  you p1ssed me off Ivan , big time with your response,  you turned it into a post about you , when infarct it was a post about humanity (in general) you twisted things , turned them around , you became a journalist looking for a scoop , you prostituted principle and integrity just to suite your own selfish perspective,  simply put you p1ssed me off (and you offended America)  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:57

Erlenst, don't feed the troll, it was my mistake.

Nobody who has studied Philosophy and Theology can consider that live of people outside a determined country has a lower value.

Let their words describe them, and this guy has done a good job describing himself.

Iván

BTW: Erlenst knows that no Collaborator (the word is not written collaborater) can give a promotion in this place only the owners. And it will be funny seing someone licking a$$es for a promotion that only means you have to work more and for free



Edited by ivan_2068
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:46
Originally posted by erlenst erlenst wrote:

Originally posted by prog o matic prog o matic wrote:

I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will)  though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory

Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !



Actually, he proved that everything you said was wrong, and I am quite impressed to be honest. You are making an ass out of yourself by appearing to be offended in that way. It seems as though you haven't used your "depth and insight" one little bit about all the things Ivan has just pointed out.
I am sorry to hear you  feel that way, though I believe it is only to suck up to a collaborater for hope of a promotion on this site , I can see your motive and thats why you sold out your logic so cheaply, just stay in with the in crowd , just like back in high school  

Edited by prog o matic
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:41
Originally posted by prog  o  matic prog o matic wrote:

I`m pleased I put Ivan through so much trouble in doing his research (though he still distorts what the original post was intended to be about ... my observation of modern prog (call it a social metaphysical observation if you will)  though clearly ivan isn`t a fan of super string theory

Time well spent Ivan ... you proved nothing and impressed nobody, well done !



Actually, he proved that everything you said was wrong, and I am quite impressed to be honest. You are making an ass out of yourself by appearing to be offended in that way. It seems as though you haven't used your "depth and insight" one little bit about all the things Ivan has just pointed out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:39

<<  drum teacher    30  years (jazz)   theory

<< Piano (20 years)

<< theology and philosophy degree and I`m a chemist     

In response to Ivan's quickly deleted attempts at big noting himself (though I do out do him in most qualifications) 



Edited by prog o matic
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:34

I'll do the best thing that can be done with a troll....ignore him.

Iván



Edited by ivan_2068
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2006 at 01:19

OK I`m very sorry for everything I said Ivan , I feel so badly for my crime ,they should punish me , I can`t believe how stupid and ignorant and  the other nasty words you called me I have been ! and I have found a new name to call God ,not the Creator, Not the Unified Field not even Lord, I shall  call my God "Ivan" from now on, since he knows everything and is so logical , honest , and worldly  , I`m sorry "Ivan" ...  all hail Ivan !!!    



Edited by prog o matic
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Joined: November 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 304
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2006 at 22:32
Nice job bringing God into it.
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