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Trotsky 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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 Topic: World Leaders
Posted: November 26 2005 at 07:51 |
 King of Loss wrote:
^ So? Is America better?  |
I think in the fast-growing Third World nations of Asia there's a tendency to use the "two wrongs make a right" philosophy ...
Asian leaders often point to Western nations who polluted the earth and
exploited its underclasses even to point of importing slaves and using
child labour, but who have now achieved high-living standards (although
of course, the poor underclass still exists in vast numbers.) and they
try and justify short-sighted and cruel policies ... it's BS of course,
but try telling that to somebody who has many mouths to feed and can't
afford the luxury of looking at the larger picture.
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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KoS
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 16310
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Posted: November 26 2005 at 03:53 |
we are all screwed with these world leaders who think they know best,
Better to have hope and believe in the real leaders like, jesus, Martin
luther king, mohammad, Frank Zappa and others
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16442
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 23:51 |
^ So? Is America better?
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Drew
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 12600
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 23:12 |
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China sucks
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16442
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 22:18 |
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^ Nah, I also blame America. America with all its wealth are too stupid to save some fuel.
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 17:31 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
The USA are not part of the problem and I believe that - with another government - they should be part of the solution (or we're all gonna die).
The matter is: "Are North-Americans, Europeans and Japaneses prepared to lose at least 10% of their present level of income, consumption and waste, in order to fit with the WTO rules, the Kyoto Protocol and several other treaties?"
This 10% is not to be delivered freely to Sub-Saharan Africa and other poor countries since naturally many countries will grow when commerce barriers fall.
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We are loosing that level nowadays! China's growing up!
[/QUOTE]
China is a GREAT problem... they are offending the environment absurdly.
Compared with theirs the aggressions here are peanuts but we do not have a market of 1.3 billion possible buyers. So everything there is forgiven and here is blamed 
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 12:00 |
fm0210 wrote:
>We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our >opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the >people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi!
We can.
1) USA won't have petroleum in 10 years, that's the only reason why they invaded Irak.
2) USA didn't sign Kyoto agreement, the result is this weather change which can be irreversible if we don't stop pollution soon.
3) USA fight to condemn: lack of human rights, of justice, make countries be disarmed... and at the same time fight to have some immunity, to not comply it.
4) There are less rights and freedom for USA citiziens, since Bush make people have fear, and the answer against what we 'fear' is violence. Besides, how can America be a democracy having harassment, misinformation, lack of judicial rights and torture inside their own country?
5) Disobedience on International agreements, attacking United Nations' politic architecture, break conventions of Ginebra, cancelling nuclear agreement that was signed with USSR, putting theirself above of international laws. That sounds like the beginning of IV Reich.
6) Multinational companies and neoliberalism carry unsupportive, individual and selfish ideals.
7) Bush is a marionette, he has pressures to rule his country to an economic interest.
8) Bible has been historically used by dictators, psychos, 'saviors' of humanity. The book is usualy manipulated and misunderstood by them.
9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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Weather change is iraversable and a constant. Ever since this planet has ha a climate it has been in a peremenant state of change wich has resulted in largly tropical climats changing to ice ages throughout history. The big difference is that this time our pollution is helping to speed it up but dont take the fools stance that we can prevent weather change, its going to happen, we will have another Ice age regardless of what we do, the only question is when.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 08:05 |
Atkingani wrote:
ClemofNazareth wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
[9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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Geez, somebody needs a hug  .
Seriously though, for whatever it's worth, I don't believe it's the USA you should be pointing to as the problem. I think it's the flaws of government in general, which is a problem we all share. In the past two elections in our country a total of 112 million people voted for Bush (50M in 2000 and 62M in 2004). That equals only 49% of the 227 million people who voted in the two elections, and does not account for the roughly 342 million people in the two elections combined who either did not (or could not) vote. Throw in the 11 million "illegal" aliens living and working inside our borders, and we're left with a president who was put into office with only 21% of the people living here having voted to put him there. Representative government, my ass!!
But what are the alternatives? Totalitarianism? Anarchy? Communism? I consider myself to be a rabid student of history, both in my university studies, and in daily life, and I have yet to come across a system of government that works any better. And since juntas, civil wars, and revolutions are no longer en vogue over here (and dumping tea in harbors doesn't have the same zing it once did), the only viable options the 61 million of us who voted against Bush in 2004 have is to keep trying. We have made gains in this off-year cycle in local and state elections around the country, and I am confident in 2006 we will see a major shift of power in Congress. By 2008, we should all be able to celebrate ushering the Bush cartel and his crusading army of self-seving zealots out of power. I for one can't wait!
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The USA are not part of the problem and I believe that - with another government - they should be part of the solution (or we're all gonna die).
The matter is: "Are North-Americans, Europeans and Japaneses prepared to lose at least 10% of their present level of income, consumption and waste, in order to fit with the WTO rules, the Kyoto Protocol and several other treaties?"
This 10% is not to be delivered freely to Sub-Saharan Africa and other poor countries since naturally many countries will grow when commerce barriers fall.
[/QUOTE]
We are loosing that level nowadays! China's growing up!
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 06:15 |
ClemofNazareth wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
[9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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Geez, somebody needs a hug . Seriously though, for whatever it's worth, I don't believe it's the USA you should be pointing to as the problem. I think it's the flaws of government in general, which is a problem we all share. In the past two elections in our country a total of 112 million people voted for Bush (50M in 2000 and 62M in 2004). That equals only 49% of the 227 million people who voted in the two elections, and does not account for the roughly 342 million people in the two elections combined who either did not (or could not) vote. Throw in the 11 million "illegal" aliens living and working inside our borders, and we're left with a president who was put into office with only 21% of the people living here having voted to put him there. Representative government, my ass!! But what are the alternatives? Totalitarianism? Anarchy? Communism? I consider myself to be a rabid student of history, both in my university studies, and in daily life, and I have yet to come across a system of government that works any better. And since juntas, civil wars, and revolutions are no longer en vogue over here (and dumping tea in harbors doesn't have the same zing it once did), the only viable options the 61 million of us who voted against Bush in 2004 have is to keep trying. We have made gains in this off-year cycle in local and state elections around the country, and I am confident in 2006 we will see a major shift of power in Congress. By 2008, we should all be able to celebrate ushering the Bush cartel and his crusading army of self-seving zealots out of power. I for one can't wait!
[/QUOTE]
The USA are not part of the problem and I believe that - with another government - they should be part of the solution (or we're all gonna die).
The matter is: "Are North-Americans, Europeans and Japaneses prepared to lose at least 10% of their present level of income, consumption and waste, in order to fit with the WTO rules, the Kyoto Protocol and several other treaties?"
This 10% is not to be delivered freely to Sub-Saharan Africa and other poor countries since naturally many countries will grow when commerce barriers fall.
Edited by Atkingani
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 03:41 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Hello Hughes,
In Italy all the most important journalists (the greatest part of them are against Berlusconi) assured the people that Bush would have lose elections. They were not sure, they were SUPER-SURE (is it correct? I doubt it ). Not just in Italy!! Observers from all over the world and not jusy journalists expected him to loose. Me included - ev en though I was aware of my next remark before hand!!
The result was the opposite! And what was the reason their intelligent minds could find out to justify the clear error? Americans are ignorant or, at least, fundemantalists!! Actually one thing that had not escaped Bush was that a US president during wartime always gets reelected! There have been no exceptions to this and this is a very well known factor in Washington (I am dead serious about this). The fact/theory that he (or his administration) fabricated false proofs to engage the US in war is not that far-fetched at all in order to get in another term.
Now, I think the problem is not who are americans (that I respect, without sucking up none of them!), the problem is what kind of journalists we have in our countries! They do not distinguish their political passions from reality! Doing so, they deprive american people of the respect they deserve, not as americans, but as people who are voting democratically the president they think is better in that momen for their country!! they also deprive us of journalism!!! I will award you a point on this one as I think that the journalist cast are a sad state of integrity denouncing by they often lack that same integrity themselves!!
This is one of the best things in the world! The greatest part of it doesn't have this freedom to chose and not to be doomed!
We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi! Regardless that Bush is an opponant or not the man is Evil and certainly not any more worthy than the people he declared war upon!
This is something I have to fight for!!
I admit I have exaggerated with Chirac...that's because italian is naturally (and friendly!! ) rival of french!! Yup , I think the French create a lot of jealousy against them!!
I disagree with the french government who seems to be always against USA...this is their grandeur? Well this US opposition is not as automatic as everyone seems to think it is. But the french have since De Gaule have had a political conduct of their own and pride themselves not to be bullied by anybody. They have annoyed their allies on many occasions (and this is why they came out partly of Nato for a few years) by sticking to a less extreme attitude. This independance of mind has always impressed highly Germany, Belgium who are more prone to take the French views seriously in consideration! This of course annoys even more the UK and US!
The political independance of France was somewhat a bit inspired of completely non-aligned countries like India and Egypt during the Cold War and the a bit like the communist non-aligned Yougoslavia. But they stood firmly in the western camp , but always refused complete anglo-saxon domination on international issues! This makes France's prestige in the world! Or at least what is left of it!
See you soon! Yup! It will not be long!!
Andrea |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 25 2005 at 03:18 |
Xymphony wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
But the man has balls which is more than Bush or Berlusconi (or Aznar) did by sucking up to Bush!!
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Bush? Like Marilyn Manson?
Joking, you meant Blair i think...
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Feudian slip there!!!
Yes I did!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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|
ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 22:30 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
fm0210 wrote:
>We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our >opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the >people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi!
We can.
1) USA won't have petroleum in 10 years, that's the only reason why they invaded Irak.
2) USA didn't sign Kyoto agreement, the result is this weather change which can be irreversible if we don't stop pollution soon.
3) USA fight to condemn: lack of human rights, of justice, make countries be disarmed... and at the same time fight to have some immunity, to not comply it.
4) There are less rights and freedom for USA citiziens, since Bush make people have fear, and the answer against what we 'fear' is violence. Besides, how can America be a democracy having harassment, misinformation, lack of judicial rights and torture inside their own country?
5) Disobedience on International agreements, attacking United Nations' politic architecture, break conventions of Ginebra, cancelling nuclear agreement that was signed with USSR, putting theirself above of international laws. That sounds like the beginning of IV Reich.
6) Multinational companies and neoliberalism carry unsupportive, individual and selfish ideals.
7) Bush is a marionette, he has pressures to rule his country to an economic interest.
8) Bible has been historically used by dictators, psychos, 'saviors' of humanity. The book is usualy manipulated and misunderstood by them.
9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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|
Geez, somebody needs a hug . Seriously though, for whatever it's worth, I don't believe it's the USA you should be pointing to as the problem. I think it's the flaws of government in general, which is a problem we all share. In the past two elections in our country a total of 112 million people voted for Bush (50M in 2000 and 62M in 2004). That equals only 49% of the 227 million people who voted in the two elections, and does not account for the roughly 342 million people in the two elections combined who either did not (or could not) vote. Throw in the 11 million "illegal" aliens living and working inside our borders, and we're left with a president who was put into office with only 21% of the people living here having voted to put him there. Representative government, my ass!! But what are the alternatives? Totalitarianism? Anarchy? Communism? I consider myself to be a rabid student of history, both in my university studies, and in daily life, and I have yet to come across a system of government that works any better. And since juntas, civil wars, and revolutions are no longer en vogue over here (and dumping tea in harbors doesn't have the same zing it once did), the only viable options the 61 million of us who voted against Bush in 2004 have is to keep trying. We have made gains in this off-year cycle in local and state elections around the country, and I am confident in 2006 we will see a major shift of power in Congress. By 2008, we should all be able to celebrate ushering the Bush cartel and his crusading army of self-seving zealots out of power. I for one can't wait!
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 18:15 |
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 16:50 |
fm0210 wrote:
>We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our >opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the >people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi!
We can.
1) USA won't have petroleum in 10 years, that's the only reason why they invaded Irak.
2) USA didn't sign Kyoto agreement, the result is this weather change which can be irreversible if we don't stop pollution soon.
3) USA fight to condemn: lack of human rights, of justice, make countries be disarmed... and at the same time fight to have some immunity, to not comply it.
4) There are less rights and freedom for USA citiziens, since Bush make people have fear, and the answer against what we 'fear' is violence. Besides, how can America be a democracy having harassment, misinformation, lack of judicial rights and torture inside their own country?
5) Disobedience on International agreements, attacking United Nations' politic architecture, break conventions of Ginebra, cancelling nuclear agreement that was signed with USSR, putting theirself above of international laws. That sounds like the beginning of IV Reich.
6) Multinational companies and neoliberalism carry unsupportive, individual and selfish ideals.
7) Bush is a marionette, he has pressures to rule his country to an economic interest.
8) Bible has been historically used by dictators, psychos, 'saviors' of humanity. The book is usualy manipulated and misunderstood by them.
9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 15:54 |
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>We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our >opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the >people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi!
We can.
1) USA won't have petroleum in 10 years, that's the only reason why they invaded Irak.
2) USA didn't sign Kyoto agreement, the result is this weather change which can be irreversible if we don't stop pollution soon.
3) USA fight to condemn: lack of human rights, of justice, make countries be disarmed... and at the same time fight to have some immunity, to not comply it.
4) There are less rights and freedom for USA citiziens, since Bush make people have fear, and the answer against what we 'fear' is violence. Besides, how can America be a democracy having harassment, misinformation, lack of judicial rights and torture inside their own country?
5) Disobedience on International agreements, attacking United Nations' politic architecture, break conventions of Ginebra, cancelling nuclear agreement that was signed with USSR, putting theirself above of international laws. That sounds like the beginning of IV Reich.
6) Multinational companies and neoliberalism carry unsupportive, individual and selfish ideals.
7) Bush is a marionette, he has pressures to rule his country to an economic interest.
8) Bible has been historically used by dictators, psychos, 'saviors' of humanity. The book is usualy manipulated and misunderstood by them.
9) Since Bush declared war against terrorism, terrorism increased; USA is part of the problem.
Etc.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 15:39 |
The Doctor wrote:
Oh this isn't a music question? Oops I'm in the wrong section for music polls. 
So who are these guys then? Didn't Tony Blair once have a singing career with the Beatles as his backing band?
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Actually no, Tony Blair went to the same school as Mr.Bean (Rowan Atkinson)...
Dont blame his stupidity
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 15:31 |
Yea . I admit, I voted for Bush. accidentally... I meant to click Blair
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 13:56 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
I agree with you on Chirac!!
Not on Blair and Bush, yet.
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Typical Britsih view on anti-french feelings.
Yes, Chirac is a crook but the man has flashes of brilliance (he has more of them in his second term than in his firt term as president) although this is all too rare.But the man has balls which is more than Bush or Berlusconi (or Aznar) did by sucking up to Bush!!
In my mind he (chirac) is a lesser evil because every one knows what he is about and no-one trusts him in his own country. This is where Blair (however diminished he is with his own Irak Gate) and Berlusconi (will find out soon once they find the real motives of his decision are discovered) will pay the price for it (I hope).
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Hello Hughes,
In Italy all the most important journalists (the greatest part of them are against Berlusconi) assured the people that Bush would have lose elections. They were not sure, they were SUPER-SURE (is it correct? I doubt it).
The result was the opposite! And what was the reason their intelligent minds could find out to justify the clear error? Americans are ignorant or, at least, fundemantalists!!
Now, I think the problem is not who are americans (that I respect, without sucking up none of them!), the problem is what kind of journalists we have in our countries! They do not distinguish their political passions from reality! Doing so, they deprive american people of the respect they deserve, not as americans, but as people who are voting democratically the president they think is better in that momen for their country!! they also deprive us of journalism!!!
This is one of the best things in the world! The greatest part of it doesn't have this freedom to chose and not to be doomed!
We cannot say our opponent is EVIL only because he's our opponent! we cannot call ignorant or brainwashed the people only because they vote Bush or Berlusconi!
This is something I have to fight for!!
I admit I have exaggerated with Chirac...that's because italian is naturally (and friendly!!) rival of frech!!
I disagree with the french government who seems to be always against USA...this is their grandeur?
See you soon!
Andrea
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Xymphony
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2005
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 211
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 12:02 |
Sean Trane wrote:
But the man has balls which is more than Bush or Berlusconi (or Aznar) did by sucking up to Bush!!
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Bush? Like Marilyn Manson?
Joking, you meant Blair i think...
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: November 24 2005 at 11:49 |
The Wizard wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
We are doomed |
We most certainly are! |
yes when you look down the list somehow the final option seems quite appropriate......
...actually I am a bit worried that George W is picking up votes......
Edited by Phil
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World Leaders
