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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: April 13 2022 at 01:30 |
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Waters is anti-Zion, not anti-Semite. The two are often conflated. There are many Jews around the world who take the same stance as Waters. Being Jewish, and not agreeing with Israel’s occupation of Palestine, are not mutually exclusive. If the pig had featured only the Star of David, and nothing else, then that would have been hard to argue as anything other than anti-Semite - but it was one of a LOT of different images on the pig, and that it was a pig was in a way accidental/incidental. If it had been a sheep or a dog, rather than a pig, which was the original inflatable, then that is what the Star of David would have been on. It was associating the Star of David with pigs only if that is what one wanted to believe. That said, it was perhaps foolish of Waters not to consider that it could be taken that way, but he is the kind of stubborn person who would probably stick to his guns and think that if that’s not what he meant, then it’s not his fault some people take it that way. Waters is a dick. He says and does some stupid things. But I don’t believe he is any more anti-Semite than Jeremy Corbyn, or any other person crucified by the media for their stance against Israel - which, once again, is not at all the same as being anti-Semite, and is a view held by many Jews around the world, too. |
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24391 |
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Then his attitude towards sanctions is at least ambivalent, given his involvements in the BDS movement against Israel, which earned him a ranking in a top 10 that has nothing to do with prog.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20338 |
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We also have to see that our occidental indignation/outrage is not shared global-wise. Africans and Latinos and Arabs don't quite see it with a good eye. For many around the world, once again "Europe" is once again trying to impose its own morality across the planet. You'd be well surprised to see which country voted what about retrieving Russia's UN "permanent vetoer" status. Yeah, sure: 50% of the states voted yes, but the rest either voted against the resolution (15%), abstained (30%) or did not vote at all (10% - for whatever reason, but a lot of them are would've voted no, seeing who didn't vote). Although a lot of the "positive votes" were more or less expected, there was a few surprises in the voting too. And in terms of global population, that would be 65% did not vote for expelling Russia out f the UN (of course China & India representing a vast amount of that stat). ....
Edited by Sean Trane - April 12 2022 at 03:49 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Well, I think irony is probably the most accurate word, even if not the best. Yes, it was probably not the wisest thing to do, to state the irony here, and it certainly didn't help Woon gain any popularity. It's definitely a question of knowing your audience, and this was not the place to point out the irony (no matter how valid or true that irony might be). I don't think Woon had any malicious intent, but it was almost inevitable that he would be jumped upon.
I think a lot of us, including Woon, misjudged just how far Putin would go. But calling him an arsehole, and spieling his name pootin are two very different things. If John had just called Putin an arsehole, I don't think Woon would have had any argument. I don't think Woon was wise to point out that calling Putin pootin was a little juvenile - because even if that is how it appears to me, too, it was never going to win John around! He is a poo tin, and the pun is humorous, but as John himself showed, humour is not universally accepted in times of great tragedy and crisis. (There was irony there, too, as Woon was trying to find some humour in a humourless situation, and John rounded on him for doing so, while himself deliberately mis-spelling Putin in a humorous way.) Basically, I think most people here are on the same page, but being in different parts of the world, speaking different languages, and being closer or further from the actual war and genocide (metaphorically and literally), it is too easy to see things that weren't there. A lot of the offence has been taken rather than given, and a lot of the misconceptions are due to inference rather than implication. I like both John and Woon, and from what I have seen from both, neither are fans of Putin, and neither agree with the war and genocide. In between, things have been muddled, and messages have been mixed, and the two are probably now the twain who shall never meet. Such is life.... |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20338 |
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Admittedly Woon is not helping himself being popular on this board. At least I admit being wrongly-lead by Wlado's pre-war reactions, and I call him an arsehole since he actually started his invasion. This said, the word "irony" is maybe not the best word to be used in such a dramatic run of events.
Yessss, but he died for his idealism (we're still trying to figure out how the CIA/NATO is involved into THAT) Once Roger gets shot (NATO, Trump, Zelenski or Putin??) he'll get the sale Lennon-like recognition. ...
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I find this really interesting to watch from the sidelines, as it is obvious that (as is always the case with highly emotive issues - and I guess there’s not much more that is highly emotive than war and genocide) people are reading more into things than is there.
Woon has not said that Pink Floyd’s song, or “Imagine” is inappropriate or wrong. He has merely pointed out irony. To deny the irony is silly in my opinion. It’s there. It’s undeniable. I might add an additional level of irony, as what Lennon sings is what Waters preaches - and is so often lambasted for. A desire for no countries, and brotherhood and peace across imaginary borders. The problem is, obviously, that as arbitrary and as imaginary as they might be, they are being fought over right now. And those that seek peace and negotiation, and pragmatic and expedient solutions to this war, like Lorenzo on this forum, or Waters off it, are heavily criticised for their idealism and pacifism. Yet Lennon gets a free pass? Interesting…. |
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The Dark Elf
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The U.S. anthem "The Star Spangled Banner" is about the British naval bombardment of Fort McHenry in Baltimore, Maryland during the War of 1812. The anthem hasn't stopped the British and Americans from being allies for over 100 years. Next stupid analogy that is completely out of context to current politics. Oh wait, here it is now....
What is more important is that the song is also absolutely anti-Vlad the Impaler. Putin has no place in a civilized world. The song is about brotherhood and peace across imaginary borders Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no Russian Poot.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I figured! It’s apt, and descriptive, There are more than a few dog poo bins around these parts that have been relabelled Putin - which is, basically I guess, the obverse of what you have done.
I think there is humour in it, albeit somewhat juvenile, I wouldn’t have reacted to it the way Woom did, but then he didn’t react that way until you had already had a go at him - so if I were feeling defensive, maybe I might have reacted just as he did. When one feels one is being attacked, sometimes, even though it’s not the wisest thing to do (Will Smith), one goes on the offensive…. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and I don’t think either you or Woon did yourselves any favours. I’m just sitting here on the sideline, seeing both of your points of view (and largely agreeing with most of what you have both posted in the last). If we go back to irony, the irony here is that more often than you might realise, you and Woon have been in agreement. Obviously there have been some quite major point of difference. But I don’t for a moment think that Woon is the Putin supporter/fan/apologist you do. |
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Easy Money
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pootin, its a keeper.
Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 11:22 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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nick_h_nz
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Yeah, but he has a point. It does look ridiculous typing pootin for Putin. It is something a teenager would do. I can’t stand Putin. I think he is a first class arsehole that needs to be stopped by any means, and if he were assassinated, I would not be upset. But what does calling him pootin achieve? Given how eloquent you can be, you belittle yourself when you lower yourself to such juvenile spelling of Putin. I understand why you do it, but it’s not something I would choose to do.
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Easy Money
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I don't feel good talking about another person on the site, I would rather talk directly to that person, but quite frankly you missed a lot in that conversation, there was so much more than just me not thinking the first post was funny, so much more.
For example: Here is Woon's quote about me typing 'pooten': "You think that by mutilating the people's names you sound wise, but you indeed act like a teenager." And there was a lot more, you have a good day Nick, but you do not understand me or the exchange I just had, but generally, you're a good guy. Peace. |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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nick_h_nz
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Fine, I won’t argue, though so I so easily could. But I do think you perhaps need to go back and read over what Woon posted. Maybe you’ll see that he is right, and that you do seem to have misinterpreted his words. You do seem to be blinded by emotion. And you do seem to be reading into what he has written things that he has not said. Even now, you are saying he was angry for you typing pootin, when that didn’t seem to case to me. I am not saying you can’t go back and dig up dirt on Woon, but regardless of what he might have said in the past, there really is nothing wrong with anything he has said here, apart from calling you childish. I like and respect you, and your posts are almost always wise and well-reasoned - but your reaction here is off the mark. Like I say, I could argue - but I respect you don’t want to, so that’s fine. We will just have to agree to disagree here. I know I am like Woon though, and in the depth’s of despair and in my darkest hours, and at what must seem like the most inappropriate times to people who don’t know me, I seek humour, and I laugh. I’m as likely to laugh at a funeral as I am to cry. That’s just how some people are. You clearly are not. But not everyone is like you. Honestly, I’m with Woon on this one. I definitely haven’t agreed with everything he has written, but I don’t think he’s said anything wrong here - at least, not until you tried to take him down for something he never even said. |
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Easy Money
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Re Nick: I'm not wanting to argue with you Nick, and you are not Woon's lawyer, but I could easily dig up post after post of him denigrating pootin's opposition.
The very fact that he gets angry when I type pootin is enough for me, but there is much much more buried in this forum besides that. Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 10:14 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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SteveG
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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John, I completely support you in almost every post you make, but you do seem to have completely misconstrued and misinterpreted Woon’s post regarding the irony of the song. And while I don’t condone his insult, I can understand why he might have given up and resorted to it, as you rather backed him into a corner.
I, too, have been following Woon’s posts from the beginning - and he has quite clearly and overtly never been a Putin supporter. He has expressed how some in Ukraine still have nostalgia for the Soviet Union, but that is not the same thing as being a Putin supporter. All Woon did was point out an amusing irony in the song being sung. It was nothing to do with the lyrics. It was not suggesting that it was a foolish choice of song for Floyd to cover. It was not suggesting it was an inappropriate choice of song for Floyd to cover. Just that there was irony. And there is. That’s pretty much inarguable. By all means, you don’t need to find it amusing, but that doesn’t mean others can’t find some light humour in it. In the midst of tragedy, people react very differently. You might find it abhorrent that anyone could find anything to laugh about, but many people find laughter to be a coping mechanism. I know you have a lot of personal investment in Ukraine, and that is great. I wish more people were as committed as you to giving their time, effort and what money they can afford, to aid Ukraine. But I do think that you’ve made the wrong assumptions about Woon in this instance. |
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Easy Money
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How dare I disrespect the beloved almighty pooten. Send me to the gulag already.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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Easy Money
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Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 08:04 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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Woon Deadn
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Sir, I must claim, you act like an idiot teenager. Fare thee 'ell!
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Woon Deadn
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Yes, I didn't think that my post could be misinterpreted, for I thought that everybody had already read the translation of the lyrics into English. Anyway, there was a historical irony in the very fact of using quite that song. It looks like my explanations in English are still not perfect.
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Favourite Band: Gentle Giant
Favourite Writer: Robert Sheckley Favourite Horror Writer: Jean Ray Favourite Computer Game: Tiny Toon - Buster's Hidden Treasure (Sega Mega Drive/Genesis) |
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Easy Money
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^ I have been following your posts from the beginning of you showing up. I can bring them all back up if you want me to. I have never seen you post anything positive about those that oppose pooten, including Navalney and others, and I am not surprised my disrespecting his name bothers you, I expected that.
Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2022 at 07:59 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
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