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Did Yes "drop the ball" when Bruford left?
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Poll Question: Did Yes "drop the ball" when Bruford left?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [7.14%]
35 [83.33%]
1 [2.38%]
1 [2.38%]
1 [2.38%]
1 [2.38%]
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verslibre View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 08 2021 at 09:30
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Alan White was actually a phenominal drummer as proved on Rick Wakeman's Six Wives album were both he and Bruford get 3 songs each. Ann Of Cleves may well have my favourite drumming.

Seems like Alan will forever be in Broof's shadow for some fans. For me, the "classic" Yes line-up is Squire, Howe, Anderson, Wakeman and White. That's the line-up that recorded TFTO, Going for the One and KTA 1/2. 'Nuff said!

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Pity that Moraz and Bruford never played together..oh hold on they did lol!

And those are killer albums. Wink
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Alan White was actually a phenominal drummer as proved on Rick Wakeman's Six Wives album were both he and Bruford get 3 songs each. Ann Of Cleves may well have my favourite drumming. I believe that Bruford improved as a drummer after he left Yes and was challenged a lot more by Fripp and crew. That said Yes were amazingly creative in the period when he was there and I suspect he was a slightly more versatile drummer than White who was more talented on the heavy side. I tend to agree that Relayer was the most 'progressive' of the post Bruford albums but that was largely down to Moraz. Pity that Moraz and Bruford never played together..oh hold on they did lol!
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

"Drop the ball" as in go off course or lose momentum. "Drop the ball" was the first metaphor or description I thought of. I apologize if that's vague or not clear to non native English speakers or whoever. 

Going "off course" is, indeed, vague, and losing momentum doesn't fit into the definition of dropping the ball at all. And are you implying that non native English speakers would never be in a position to hear the phrase before this poll? How charming. No, to "drop the ball" simply means to make a mistake or mishandle things. As for the former, Yes as a group wasn't in any position to make a mistake in the instance of Bruford leaving. It was simply Robert Fripp who one day strongly suggested to Bill that it was time for him to join Crimso'. One mistake that was made was Chris Squire repeatedly showing up late for rehearsals and recording sessions which really got on Bruford's nerves, as he once stated. As for your negligence of not knowing what dropping the ball means, I'd like to suggest that you bone up on such phrases before using them in your threads.
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Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by Neu!mann Neu!mann wrote:

No, they dropped the ball when they let Patrick Moraz go and re-hired Rick Wakeman: a backward-looking decision based entirely on commerce. A lot of good music would follow, but nothing as challenging as Relayer: the last truly "progressive" Yes album...
This. While Bill Bruford is my favorite drummer, Alan White's drumming on TFTO takes Yes to a new level. Patrick Moraz on Relayer takes them to a new level again. I think it all went wrong when Rick Wakeman returned to Yes. Alan White and Steve Howe were developing a harder edge with the sort of music they were doing with Patrick Moraz. Wakeman returned the group to a more folksy - pop - classical feel which the band had been moving away from. The group survived GFTO only because Wakeman liked what Jon Anderson was doing and was able to enhance the music. The split was always inevitable when it occurred with the Tormato album.

From what I've read, Yes treated Patrick Moraz very poorly, including withholding payment.  From an online interview with Moraz (original link didn't work)


– Were you forced to leave or parting company was friendly?

Unfortunately, I was forced to leave. And even though, at the time, the split “was not made to appear acrimonious”, I suffered extremely and extensively. To be “asked to leave” so suddenly put me in a lot of turmoil and disturbance. The fact is, I was never compensated for anything. I never ever got paid for any of my tour participation in the extremely successful and extensive YES Tour of 1976, which comprised about 65 concerts, many of them in front of sold-out audiences of more than 100,000 people. After all, as a member of the band, I was entitled to a 20% cut from what the band was getting.

I don’t like to dwell into negatives, however, I can tell you that I had absolutely no desire to want to leave YES, at the time, in November of 1976. We had just finished the biggest tour YES had ever done, the “Bicentennial Tour”, a huge, extremely successful tour for YES. Somehow, it had been decided that we would go and record, in my own country, Switzerland, what became the album “Going for the One”, which we had extensively composed, developed and rehearsed during the course of 1976 (and even before that). There was no reason in the world for me to want to leave the band! Also, I understood, much later, that Rick was already in town, with his own crew, when I was still in the group, and I was still part of YES.

In addition, it was an extremely complicated and difficult situation for me to be stranded, on the street, with my baby daughter who was only one-month old and her mother, without any transport or money, in the cold winter of Switzerland. Then the fight for survival to stay alive, it all became surreal.


Edited by cstack3 - November 06 2021 at 11:32
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

To say he dropped the ball, is kind of sad, and he does not deserve that kind of attack. 

Maybe you misread the OP - it says "Yes dropped the ball", not Bill.
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Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

No 
They lost a great drummer, but no... 
Exactly.

Hi,

Bill does not exactly say a whole lot about leaving YES, in his book, which concentrates on trivial matters more often than not, and is not a sort of tell all book at all. It is also possible that his residuals from YES material are still large enough for him to say anything at all, and rock the boat!

I agree that he is a great drummer, and he shows it in KC, with the sad fact that a lot of the "remixes" done from KC during his time, do not show BB very well. Witness a song done by Rachel Flowers, where she DOES take the time to add the little touches and trinkets that became a signature 35 years when KC had 3 drummers, so one could do all the little fun stuff! You could easily have said that it was BB that created a lot of those bits instead!

Time comes and goes, and never does it look any different the next day, other than a few clouds, and maybe a little warmer or colder. In essence, BB had decided that he wanted to try something new, and I believe he misjudged TFTO a bit, which would have been nice for him, although I have a feeling that there were passages when his style of cutesy, or edgy jazzy bits, would (apparently) not fit at all, and in this sense, Alan White did a great job staying focused on what was needed and requested for the players to do their thing and shine.

BB went on to do some outstanding things with KC and on his own. To say he dropped the ball, is kind of sad, and he does not deserve that kind of attack. Pretty soon we have to blame the dog, or the cat, for it all happening, and throw them out the door, just so we can live out our life of continuous rejection of the way life is, and how things turn out. 

Our reactive ideals are not what people are about.


Edited by moshkito - November 06 2021 at 07:47
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

No 
They lost a great drummer, but no... 
Exactly.
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Mmmm, no.
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Points: 6737 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2021 at 01:57
I prefer Bruford as a drummer, but my favourite Yes albums all tend to be after he left. I think only CttE would make it to my top five Yes albums, from the Bruford era.

For me personally, I think losing Moraz to take back Wakeman created far more of a dropping the ball moment, than Bruford voluntarily leaving the band.

[EDIT] I posted this without reading what others had said. I see now that I’m not the first to have recognised losing Moraz as being more of a dropped ball moment than Bruford leaving. 🤗

*note to self* - Read before posting…. 🙄



Edited by nick_h_nz - November 06 2021 at 02:00
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I voted "not really."  Bruf was getting bored with Yes from what I've read, and he wanted to play in King Crimson so he could "play some wrong notes."

White was an excellent replacement, his work on "Relayer" is sublime.  

I saw Bruford with Yes for the Reunion Tour, he said he was bored out of his mind.  However, I think he did very well with Anderson Bruford Wakeman & Howe, so who knows.
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Originally posted by Neu!mann Neu!mann wrote:

No, they dropped the ball when they let Patrick Moraz go and re-hired Rick Wakeman: a backward-looking decision based entirely on commerce. A lot of good music would follow, but nothing as challenging as Relayer: the last truly "progressive" Yes album...
This. While Bill Bruford is my favorite drummer, Alan White's drumming on TFTO takes Yes to a new level. Patrick Moraz on Relayer takes them to a new level again. I think it all went wrong when Rick Wakeman returned to Yes. Alan White and Steve Howe were developing a harder edge with the sort of music they were doing with Patrick Moraz. Wakeman returned the group to a more folksy - pop - classical feel which the band had been moving away from. The group survived GFTO only because Wakeman liked what Jon Anderson was doing and was able to enhance the music. The split was always inevitable when it occurred with the Tormato album.
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bruford is definitely the better drummer if that answers the question 
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ONLY if Bruford was a ball

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I don't know what the difference between yes and no and other is, so I'm going to vote for buy one get one free.
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^ Come on, we would never have had Awaken as we know it if Wakeman didn't come back, and I can't imagine the version with Moraz could have ended up any better. However, no, they didn't drop the ball nor anything when Bruford left, and I find it a rather odd question given how they were still going strong until Tormato.
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No, they dropped the ball when they let Patrick Moraz go and re-hired Rick Wakeman: a backward-looking decision based entirely on commerce. A lot of good music would follow, but nothing as challenging as Relayer: the last truly "progressive" Yes album...
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Definitely no. They lost a great drummer, one of my favourites, but no way.
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although Bruford is probably my fav drummer--Alan White is an amazing versatile drummer and added an earthiness and heaviness to the sound which opened up a lot of new directions for the band--can't imagine Bill on Relayer. One of their best albums. 
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Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Absolutely not. They went on to their most elaborate album, for better or worse, and then their best after that.


This is what I was hoping at least one person would say. Which one do you consider their best though? Relayer? Most seem to consider their prime period to be TYA to CTTE and especially close to the edge so it was with that common opinion in mind that prompted me to start this poll.
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