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Two Anti-System Movies from 1999
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Poll Question: Which one do you choose?
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uduwudu View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 08 2021 at 06:05
The matrix gets by on cast energy.

Fight Club in a great personality breakdown amidst the corporate instigation.

The end won't work which is disappointing. But the symbolism remains the same.

P.S. We have broken the first and second rules? What now?
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Erenan View Drop Down
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Yes, Alice in Wonderland is definitely an ancestor of sorts to The Matrix. The latter even explicitly nods its head to the former ("Follow the white rabbit," "Take the red pill and find out how deep the rabbit hole goes"). It's attempting to build on a long tradition and the question then is simply "does it succeed?"

Well, of course, "does it succeed?" isn't actually a simple question. It covers a lot of ground because you have to think about what success is and you can get into all of the many arguments that have been had about art and what makes it good or bad and on and on and on. That's a deep rabbit hole of its own.

My opinion is that it does succeed. If you hate action movies, then yes, you're very unlikely to give The Matrix your overall approval because at its heart it is one.
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^^ It's not that different an opinion on my general take on that (action and FX): when the story gets buried under too much show off-thingies then that's not my cup of tea either. But I can not (and never will) take a general stance against a whole genre. The Matrix found a balance that was sufficiently effective for me, as an action movie (not that it would be in my top 50 or something, but that's a complete other thing). It entertained me so I'm not going to say I didn't like it because it is an action movie...

the thematic of "The Matrix" was handled much better (and with hardly any action at all) in the 1973 movie "Welt am Draht" ("World on a Wire") by Rainer Werner Fassbinder. I am a big fan of that movie. "The Matrix" is a real stinker compared to that one


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^Then for god's sake stay away from John Wick movies. The last one was 2hrs of running Gunkata with the remaining 10 minutes devoted to plot. A serious waste of time.
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^^ It's not that different an opinion on my general take on that (action and FX): when the story gets buried under too much show off-thingies then that's not my cup of tea either. But I can not (and never will) take a general stance against a whole genre. The Matrix found a balance that was sufficiently effective for me, as an action movie (not that it would be in my top 50 or something, but that's a complete other thing). It entertained me so I'm not going to say I didn't like it because it is an action movie...


Edited by suitkees - February 24 2021 at 05:44

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Yes, The Matrix is a bit heavy and demonstrative in all its references. If we have to dig deeper, let's dig a cave: the film is a decent adaptation of Plato's Allegory of the cave... Despite this demonstrative "deeper" aspect of the film, for me it was just good entertainment. Those dancing fights were very much inspired by Japanese samouraï films (think of some films by Seijun Suzuki...). The story of The Matrix is not that original, but they way they adapted all their influences and references into a SF action movie was very well done, imo.

I am of a different opinion. it did in my opinion rely way too much on action and special FX. I hate action movies


Edited by BaldJean - February 24 2021 at 05:35


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^ Yes, The Matrix is a bit heavy and demonstrative in all its references. If we have to dig deeper, let's dig a cave: the film is a decent adaptation of Plato's Allegory of the cave... Despite this demonstrative "deeper" aspect of the film, for me it was just good entertainment. Those dancing fights were very much inspired by Japanese samouraï films (think of some films by Seijun Suzuki...). The story of The Matrix is not that original, but they way they adapted all their influences and references into a SF action movie was very well done, imo.

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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by Erenan Erenan wrote:

Definitely the Matrix. The red pill blue pill thing has taken on a life of its own and so the film is legendary in terms of influencing culture. IMO Fight Club simply isn't on that level.

Fight Club's fine I guess, but the whole time I felt like the film had this smug tone to it, like the filmmakers thought they were better than I am. And the big "twist" wasn't a surprise at all. I knew what was going on from the first moment Brad Pitt appeared on screen.

It's kind of like this: Once I read an essay by a game design theorist who shall remain nameless. It was kind of a poorly written piece IMO. And then almost at the end the writer goes explicitly, "Now, you're confused at this point, but look it's intentional. This essay is intentionally convoluted and confusing." The problem is that the essay wasn't confusing at all. The ideas were basic and easy to follow. So then I just felt like, ok, you're kind of overestimating yourself as a writer.

I feel like that with Fight Club, but like, the narrative film version of that. Like when someone is explaining to you that you've been sleeping your whole life and you need to wake up, but they're very condescending about it.

I knew what the twist was in The Matrix going into it. But I didn't feel like the filmmakers were being smug about it at all. Maybe it was all the zen stuff that made me feel like the filmmakers weren't consciously focused on "doing a great job at making a film" but rather they were "making a great film." And the whole "you need to wake up" theme is more uplifting than condescending IMO.


BTW, this is a great take. Fantastic! Clap

I similarly always feel like M. Night Shyamalan is using "cheap" tricks to look "smart". He designs all the scenes like he wants to show to the audience, and in the final twist, makes people think like, "WOW, what a genius the director is!" I was never fooled! Though, I loved his latest movie Glass. I figure he redeemed the negative feelings he had aroused in me with that one. Especially, what a crappy movie The Village was...

choosing between two pills is actually an old literary device; famous literary works where it occurs are "Alice in Wonderland", the first Sherlock Holmes novel "A Study in Scarlet" or "The Princess Bride", to name but a few


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Originally posted by Erenan Erenan wrote:

Definitely the Matrix. The red pill blue pill thing has taken on a life of its own and so the film is legendary in terms of influencing culture. IMO Fight Club simply isn't on that level.

Fight Club's fine I guess, but the whole time I felt like the film had this smug tone to it, like the filmmakers thought they were better than I am. And the big "twist" wasn't a surprise at all. I knew what was going on from the first moment Brad Pitt appeared on screen.

It's kind of like this: Once I read an essay by a game design theorist who shall remain nameless. It was kind of a poorly written piece IMO. And then almost at the end the writer goes explicitly, "Now, you're confused at this point, but look it's intentional. This essay is intentionally convoluted and confusing." The problem is that the essay wasn't confusing at all. The ideas were basic and easy to follow. So then I just felt like, ok, you're kind of overestimating yourself as a writer.

I feel like that with Fight Club, but like, the narrative film version of that. Like when someone is explaining to you that you've been sleeping your whole life and you need to wake up, but they're very condescending about it.

I knew what the twist was in The Matrix going into it. But I didn't feel like the filmmakers were being smug about it at all. Maybe it was all the zen stuff that made me feel like the filmmakers weren't consciously focused on "doing a great job at making a film" but rather they were "making a great film." And the whole "you need to wake up" theme is more uplifting than condescending IMO.


BTW, this is a great take. Fantastic! Clap

I similarly always feel like M. Night Shyamalan is using "cheap" tricks to look "smart". He designs all the scenes like he wants to show to the audience, and in the final twist, makes people think like, "WOW, what a genius the director is!" I was never fooled! Though, I loved his latest movie Glass. I figure he redeemed the negative feelings he had aroused in me with that one. Especially, what a crappy movie The Village was...
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Surprised that no one but me has picked the "Both" option, as of yet.
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Neither. Seen both films once, and neither made much of an impact on me. The Matrix had some interesting ideas, but presented in an uninteresting way.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^^Re: Neo and Smith Fighting all the time
You guys are really missing the point.
It's a metaphor for standing up to your greatest fears and never giving in to the belief that nothing is possible.

You gotta dig deeper into movies than the surface visuals.

Also, all the overt religious imagery and references were, IMHO, distractions and lessened the movie's impact for me.

what I detest is not what it is all about. I detest the way it is done


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I think some of the Jesus imagery towards the end of Matrix 3 is pretty on the nose. The first movie is more subtle IMO.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^^Re: Neo and Smith Fighting all the time
You guys are really missing the point.
It's a metaphor for standing up to your greatest fears and never giving in to the belief that nothing is possible.

You gotta dig deeper into movies than the surface visuals.

Also, all the overt religious imagery and references were, IMHO, distractions and lessened the movie's impact for me.


That can be interpreted in many ways. Yours is one, mine (and suitkees') is another. Also, Neo's "futile" fights with Smith can be seen plainly as "having fun" or "testing his fighting skills/practising his fighting moves" too.

Religious imagery is not "overtly" done in the movies, I think. There is an oracle, Morpheus' name is also a cultural reference outside the scope of the religious domain. There are lots of cultural references in the movies, and none of them is too dominant, I think.
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The Matrix
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Any movie that casts Meatloaf with purportedly prosthetic 'bitch tits' and still turns out well gets my vote (Fight Club) Barbara Dennerlein was originally offered the role but turned it downShocked


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 23 2021 at 20:54
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JD View Drop Down
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^^Re: Neo and Smith Fighting all the time
You guys are really missing the point.
It's a metaphor for standing up to your greatest fears and never giving in to the belief that nothing is possible.

You gotta dig deeper into movies than the surface visuals.

Also, all the overt religious imagery and references were, IMHO, distractions and lessened the movie's impact for me.


Edited by JD - February 23 2021 at 20:41
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Erenan View Drop Down
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Definitely the Matrix. The red pill blue pill thing has taken on a life of its own and so the film is legendary in terms of influencing culture. IMO Fight Club simply isn't on that level.

Fight Club's fine I guess, but the whole time I felt like the film had this smug tone to it, like the filmmakers thought they were better than I am. And the big "twist" wasn't a surprise at all. I knew what was going on from the first moment Brad Pitt appeared on screen.

It's kind of like this: Once I read an essay by a game design theorist who shall remain nameless. It was kind of a poorly written piece IMO. And then almost at the end the writer goes explicitly, "Now, you're confused at this point, but look it's intentional. This essay is intentionally convoluted and confusing." The problem is that the essay wasn't confusing at all. The ideas were basic and easy to follow. So then I just felt like, ok, you're kind of overestimating yourself as a writer.

I feel like that with Fight Club, but like, the narrative film version of that. Like when someone is explaining to you that you've been sleeping your whole life and you need to wake up, but they're very condescending about it.

I knew what the twist was in The Matrix going into it. But I didn't feel like the filmmakers were being smug about it at all. Maybe it was all the zen stuff that made me feel like the filmmakers weren't consciously focused on "doing a great job at making a film" but rather they were "making a great film." And the whole "you need to wake up" theme is more uplifting than condescending IMO.
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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^ I agree, in the first movie, that is understandable as Neo was certain of neither the limits of his capabilities nor the strength of Agent Smith. BUT, he should have long understood thereafter that Agent Smith is "invincible", when it comes to physical attacks!

Edited by Shadowyzard - February 23 2021 at 15:34
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Yeah, but great choreographies, most of the time. Well, much over the top, sometimes (or all of the times, maybe), but it worked for me in the first one; and then it became a gimmick...

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