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Prototypes of Prog
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Ronstein View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 12 2021 at 04:05
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

If “Surfs Up” doesn’t qualify Brian Wilson as a proto-prog genius, then I just don’t know.


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And the first Caravan from 1968 should be mentioned as another proto-prog brick in the prog wall :)
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Crimson debut wasn't the only fully fleged prog album released in October 1969. The other one was Renaissance debut (pre-Haslam lineup) which remains sadly overlooked.
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If “Surfs Up” doesn’t qualify Brian Wilson as a proto-prog genius, then I just don’t know.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think it's a given that psych rock was a catalyst for prog rock. As psychedelia grew out of fashion, the musicians of the era had to tum to more adventurous music instead of relying on trippy studio effects.

Is Baroque Pop generally considered as part of the substrate which gave rise to prog?
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Well, seeing the last Steve-Ken exchange I must conclude that there might be lots of unloved music out there, that many people actually love! Why would that be? Let me guess: More haters repeating the same nonsense until we believe it, than real appreciation of the art.
Anyway, I've listened time ago to Danny Kirwan's Second Chapter, and I liked it. As I remember, the main difference with his work in the Mac lies in the nostalgic tone, something like that old vignette feel in the album of Van Dyke Parks with Brian Wilson. I'll try to recover it to check this memory...
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical.
Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes...

yes to "Sands of Time".  If Micky was around he would be all over this.  I will say it again, that song is a balm for the soul.  It's a portal to a better world for 7+ minutes.  That moment when the first part shifts into the second is a spine tingler.  I need to listen to "Dust" as I can't remember it now.  Another good one from Future Games is "Women of a Thousand Years'
Future Games and Bare Trees are two of my favorite albums of all time. I always thought that I was the only person on earth that liked them. LOL
Hey Steve!
they do seem to fall in that unloved period but there are more of us than you might imagine.  I do think the albums, like most Fleetwood Mac work, can be a bit uneven, no doubt at least partly the result of having 3 singers and writers who were not always on the same page .  Did you ever hear Danny Kirwan's solo work?  I haven't but wondered what it was like
No, I haven't but I was told by a few people that his solo work was not in the same style as what he did with FM. Whatever that means.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical.
Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes...

yes to "Sands of Time".  If Micky was around he would be all over this.  I will say it again, that song is a balm for the soul.  It's a portal to a better world for 7+ minutes.  That moment when the first part shifts into the second is a spine tingler.  I need to listen to "Dust" as I can't remember it now.  Another good one from Future Games is "Women of a Thousand Years'
Future Games and Bare Trees are two of my favorite albums of all time. I always thought that I was the only person on earth that liked them. LOL
Hey Steve!
they do seem to fall in that unloved period but there are more of us than you might imagine.  I do think the albums, like most Fleetwood Mac work, can be a bit uneven, no doubt at least partly the result of having 3 singers and writers who were not always on the same page .  Did you ever hear Danny Kirwan's solo work?  I haven't but wondered what it was like
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Points: 20604 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 10:33
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical.
Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes...

yes to "Sands of Time".  If Micky was around he would be all over this.  I will say it again, that song is a balm for the soul.  It's a portal to a better world for 7+ minutes.  That moment when the first part shifts into the second is a spine tingler.  I need to listen to "Dust" as I can't remember it now.  Another good one from Future Games is "Women of a Thousand Years'
Future Games and Bare Trees are two of my favorite albums of all time. I always thought that I was the only person on earth that liked them. LOL
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Points: 8950 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 10:23
Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical.
Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes...

yes to "Sands of Time".  If Micky was around he would be all over this.  I will say it again, that song is a balm for the soul.  It's a portal to a better world for 7+ minutes.  That moment when the first part shifts into the second is a spine tingler.  I need to listen to "Dust" as I can't remember it now.  Another good one from Future Games is "Women of a Thousand Years'
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"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical.
Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes...
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Excellent selections both of them, Ken. In the Welch-era I like "Bermuda Triangle", and during the Buckingham tenure, "The Chain" (a little obvious?), with that anthemic bass solo by John McVie.

And Steve, relax, "In Held Twas In I" won't be forgotten, let's just take a walk in the park and smell the flowers before we all get too old for this.

Yes Welch had the more mystical numbers - the title cut to Future Games is another favourite - some great hooks throughout.  And of course "Hypnotized"
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Yes sir, and David Jackson took some influence from Roland Kirk (that two saxes at a time thing).
More subversive data? Peter Gabriel is a huge fan of... Otis Redding! We construct our heroes as we want, but still they keep doing what they want, isn't that a shame?
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Jimi Hendrix.
 
According to Wikipedia, both Peter Hammill and Hugh Banton have stated that Jimi Hendrix was an influence on Van der Graaf Generator's sound, with Hammill remarking that "there'd been distortion before, but there hadn't been that real out-there attitude to sound in itself".
 
 
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think that one needs an intimate understanding of 60s psych rock to make suggestions for proto prog. Many know Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale but not the 18 minute long multi suie In Held Twas In I from Procol's Shine On Brightly album. So here's to all old the old hippies.


I agree Steve...lots of 'proto prog' stuff going on from many bands then from 067-69, Beatles, Procol,  The Doors, Spirit, Jefferson Airplane, The Who..etc...and all of these are in the proto prog section here btw......until Crimson did their thing in '69 to cement it all.
We have had this discussion here many times on who started prog and who were founders of that early proto prog thing....the truth is many bands were doing interesting things at that time.

Several American folky rock bands  were mentioned above....I  don't think they qualify as 'proto prog' ,but again interesting things were happening to many song structures then.

Yes, prog is a conglomerate of many of these styles. There has never been a single smoking gun. Unless you think like Svetonio. ;)
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Well, I don't know, Jon Anderson mentioned as early influences Buffalo, Simon & Garfunkel and Vanilla Fudge, explaining the confluence of electric and acoustic elements in Yes. Probably those bands weren't prog yet, but they may have been prototypes for things that blossomed later within the proper genre...
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think that one needs an intimate understanding of 60s psych rock to make suggestions for proto prog. Many know Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale but not the 18 minute long multi suie In Held Twas In I from Procol's Shine On Brightly album. So here's to all old the old hippies.

I agree Steve...lots of 'proto prog' stuff going on from many bands then from 067-69, Beatles, Procol,  The Doors, Spirit, Jefferson Airplane, The Who..etc...and all of these are in the proto prog section here btw......until Crimson did their thing in '69 to cement it all.
We have had this discussion here many times on who started prog and who were founders of that early proto prog thing....the truth is many bands were doing interesting things at that time.

Several American folky rock bands  were mentioned above....I  don't think they qualify as 'proto prog' ,but again interesting things were happening to many song structures then.


Edited by dr wu23 - November 15 2020 at 11:30
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Excellent selections both of them, Ken. In the Welch-era I like "Bermuda Triangle", and during the Buckingham tenure, "The Chain" (a little obvious?), with that anthemic bass solo by John McVie.

And Steve, relax, "In Held Twas In I" won't be forgotten, let's just take a walk in the park and smell the flowers before we all get too old for this.
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I think that one needs an intimate understanding of 60s psych rock to make suggestions for proto prog. Many know Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale but not the 18 minute long multi suite In Held Twas In I from Procol's Shine On Brightly album. So here's to all the old hippies.

Edited by SteveG - November 15 2020 at 12:47
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^ My other two favourite Fleetwood Mac songs are from 2 different eras from "Oh Well"

The amazing "Sands of Time" from "Future Games", Danny Kirwan's finest moment
The slow burn and blistering "Sisters of the Moon" from "Tusk", a Stevie Nicks tune

Off the top of my head, I think the Yardbirds exhibited some proto proto prog traits in their attitude and arrangements
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