Prototypes of Prog
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=124534
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 22:40
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Prototypes of Prog
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Subject: Prototypes of Prog
Date Posted: November 11 2020 at 13:44
| Since debate about the entire output & career of a given artist as "Proto-Prog" may be overcomplex and contradictory, I propose to discuss single albums or tracks, let's say, to dicuss "Then Play On" or "Oh Well", instead of the entire Fleetwood Mac stuff. |
Replies:
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: November 11 2020 at 14:05
Bela Bartok was Proto-Prog.  |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 11 2020 at 15:42
| (What do I see..?) Bela rules, that's for sure, my point here is: can you single out some specific piece of music where that "prog quality" shines specially bright? If so, we will have a better, more precise start for analysis. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 11 2020 at 16:59
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I would say as far as modern popular rock music, the Beach Boys exhibit the spirit of Prog, Art-rock & avant-gard on their landmark but almost completely missed album Smiley Smile from '67-- itself a stillborn, unfinished version of the even more amazing 'Smile' which was never produced until much later. After that, The Nice took up the call with Thoughts and Ars Longis, but they are almost full fleged prog by then. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 11 2020 at 18:53
| Great, besides Smiley Smile I think that Good Vibrations and Pet Sounds also qualify, now, are these achievements enough to turn their status from "surfing clowns" to "proto-prog wizards"? |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 08:56
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I think most of the bands and lp's in our proto prog page and database are accuratetly listed......but having said that to me one of my favorite lp's of all time definitely qualifies in that area.... 12 Dreams of Dr Sardonicus by Spirit. Also another one of my old favorites a one off obscure US band called 'Touch'. I'll be palying this one later today on my new Jamo speakers.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 09:02
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 09:07
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In Held Twas an I by Procol Harum is perhaps the strongest song in that regard even though Procol Harum is in a prog propper sub genre in PA that song signifies prog, in a proto-prog standard. Light my Fire by the Doors is another song. With its extencive keyboard solo, the Zombies with Care of Cell 44 and spessialy Shes Not There with its jazzy chords. -------------  
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 09:35
 The Velvet Underground & Nico, arguably the first album that can be properly categorized as Art Rock.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 09:39
if you mention The Doors, their epics/longer songs are to be mentioned, especially When the Music's over, Celebration of the Lizard, The Soft Parade and The End.
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Icarium wrote:Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 11:03
 I assume that was supposed to be a clever joke....... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 11:47
The three cornerstone albums of prog: Days Of Future Passed by The Moody Blues, Ars Longa Vita Brevis by the Nice, and Shine On Brightly by Procol Harum. And nothing by the VU.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 11:49
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And luckily, Sventonio is not here to endlessly argue for In A Doll's House by Family. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 12:12
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Spirit 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus, Paul McCartney's Ram, Deep Purple Fireball got heavy rotation with me when they first came out. (I was 12 and 13 at the time) But if I think back to the really early stuff that I heard on the 'ol AM Transistor, before I knew anything about bands, songs like Crimson and Clover, Who Planted Thorns in Miss Alice's Garden and Suite: Judy Blue Eyes were songs that come to mind as 'progressive' for a 10-11 year old kid riding his bike around the neighborhood. I think all the 'classic' proto stuff at the time (Zeppelin, Doors, Stones) was, for the most part, being played on FM stations and evening radio shows in my somewhat conservative hometown (London ON). Something I didn't have access to at the time. As for The Velvet Underground, Proto Punk at best. Even today it just sounds like a garage band to me, very little allure. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 12:22
Well...I like that Family lp...it's pretty good...and I think it can qualify as proto prog in some ways... though I always liked Audience better...not sure why. Two bands that imho are very similar. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 12:37
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 13:40
Don't get me started on that one. The quick answer is 'yes'. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 12 2020 at 16:34
| Not only quick, but right too! Here I start another one: listening carefully to Fleetwood Mac's "Oh Well", with that stunning combination of riffage an classical piano & guitar, a resemblance emerges: "South Side Of The Sky", by Yes, also with heavy riff in the beginning, and classical piano middle section. Sowing the seeds of prog... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 05:31
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 06:19
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12 Dreams
Yup, today some revisionists will call Velvet Art Rock, because of the Warhol connection. |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 06:45
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Steve, definitely Brian is not "cool", but he's a musical genius: should not that be the point? I saw Robert Fripp once, playing live with Crimson: the guy came in through the public entrance, walk to the stage shaking hands, sat in his chair at the rear, and blew everybody's head with the first riff. Nothing cool, all about music, 100 per cent prog. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 06:49
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 07:20
| Everyone of us decides in the inner tribunal of conscience, we are only feeding it with... suggestions, just for the sake of not missing something important. I, for instance, am thinking in giving a try to Nice & Family. And here I left another outrageous one: "Funeral For A Friend" is a nice symphonic piece, and I've found Elton listed among the Symphonic-Rock icons of the Seventies. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 08:43
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Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 09:01
| Prototypes of Prog are many and varied, but Psychedelia was a significant lead into it. Simon Dupree and The Big Sound - Kites is a good example from '66. (Even though the Shulman's grew to hate it!!) |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 09:11
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I think it's a given that psych rock was a catalyst for prog rock. As psychedelia grew out of fashion, the musicians of the era had to tum to more adventurous music instead of relying on trippy studio effects.
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 13:00
| We now decide retrospectively who is who in Prog, but each seed sown in time was irreplaceable (THAT is positive!). Carving in the psychedelic vein, any sensible person should find "In A Gadda Da Vida" at least interesting, even when Iron Butterfly, as a whole, is a less substantial issue. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 14:13
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:27
| Maybe I've underestimated them? So much to listen and re-listen, so much music to be given an opportunity. The Moodies are OK too, besides "Days Of ..." I don't see the reason to stop until "The Present", to say the least |
Posted By: A Crimson Mellotron
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:29
This!
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:43
| Well, the cover itself summons to humble contemplation: a classic |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:45
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Steve and Crimson...you two do know that The Moody Blues are listed under crossover prog...right? But 12 Dreams- Spirit...,my selection...is listed under the proto prog section...take that you misfits! http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=37 proto prog page btw.... Iron Butterfly is there and so is Touch.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:57
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 15:59
------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 16:45
| Aside the music, is mumbo-jumbo like "In A Gadda Da Vida" welcomed in Prog universe? |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: November 13 2020 at 22:29
yes
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 06:23
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Wow, that was fast & categoric. I don't know why, but I expected some debate. I'll take it, anyway: what would have become of Genesis without a Unifaun? Retaking the original thread, there's a good amount of prototypic material within the Crosby, Stills, etc. saga. Somebody mentioned "Judy Blue Eyes", and I think that Crosby & Nash' "To The Last Whale" would perfectly fit into (an hypothetic alternative compiling of) Yes' "Tormato": listen to the vocal harmonies, but also the melodic content. Parallel world prog?
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 08:12
A prototypical concept album rather than a prototypical prog album. -------------
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 12:20
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 13:55
These are not even concept-based, but they may have had some influence: 
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 14:02
You may be right .-------------
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 14 2020 at 21:44
try playing Oh Well (one of my top 3 Fleetwood Mac songs) followed by Mike Oldfield's Ommadawn Part 2 Band 3. In general I would say the second part of Oh Well was a big influence on Oldfield
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 08:08
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A multifacetic piece of music "Oh Well", you can never peel the last layer. Which would be the other 2 favourites? There are still another sources for prog mannerism waiting to be pointed at: -Convoluted vocal harmonies (C,S&N and Buffalo Springfield?) -Guitar tecnique experimentation (The Byrds, let's say in "8 miles high") -Studio tecniques playing a decisive role in composition (The inicial Grateful Dead, let's say, in "Anthem To The Sun"
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 08:34
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^ My other two favourite Fleetwood Mac songs are from 2 different eras from "Oh Well" The amazing "Sands of Time" from "Future Games", Danny Kirwan's finest moment The slow burn and blistering "Sisters of the Moon" from "Tusk", a Stevie Nicks tune Off the top of my head, I think the Yardbirds exhibited some proto proto prog traits in their attitude and arrangements
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 08:54
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I think that one needs an intimate understanding of 60s psych rock to make suggestions for proto prog. Many know Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale but not the 18 minute long multi suite In Held Twas In I from Procol's Shine On Brightly album. So here's to all the old hippies. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 10:07
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Excellent selections both of them, Ken. In the Welch-era I like "Bermuda Triangle", and during the Buckingham tenure, "The Chain" (a little obvious?), with that anthemic bass solo by John McVie. And Steve, relax, "In Held Twas In I" won't be forgotten, let's just take a walk in the park and smell the flowers before we all get too old for this. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 11:30
I agree Steve...lots of 'proto prog' stuff going on from many bands then from 067-69, Beatles, Procol, The Doors, Spirit, Jefferson Airplane, The Who..etc...and all of these are in the proto prog section here btw......until Crimson did their thing in '69 to cement it all. We have had this discussion here many times on who started prog and who were founders of that early proto prog thing....the truth is many bands were doing interesting things at that time. Several American folky rock bands were mentioned above....I don't think they qualify as 'proto prog' ,but again interesting things were happening to many song structures then.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 12:41
| Well, I don't know, Jon Anderson mentioned as early influences Buffalo, Simon & Garfunkel and Vanilla Fudge, explaining the confluence of electric and acoustic elements in Yes. Probably those bands weren't prog yet, but they may have been prototypes for things that blossomed later within the proper genre... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 12:53
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 13:08
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Jimi Hendrix. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Graaf_Generator" rel="nofollow - Wikipedia , both Peter Hammill and Hugh Banton have stated that Jimi Hendrix was an influence on Van der Graaf Generator's sound, with Hammill remarking that "there'd been distortion before, but there hadn't been that real out-there attitude to sound in itself". ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 17:44
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Yes sir, and David Jackson took some influence from Roland Kirk (that two saxes at a time thing). More subversive data? Peter Gabriel is a huge fan of... Otis Redding! We construct our heroes as we want, but still they keep doing what they want, isn't that a shame?
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 18:58
Yes Welch had the more mystical numbers - the title cut to Future Games is another favourite - some great hooks throughout. And of course "Hypnotized"
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 15 2020 at 19:55
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"Hypnotized"! What a particular vibe spreads that song... The meeting of both, Welch and Kirwan, was a moment of pure grace, I think. "Dust", for instance, so somber and self-contained, however so radiantly mystical. Another favourite from Future Games? "Sands of times", with Mick hitting the plates as nobody ever before (or after) did it. Perfection can take simple forms sometimes... |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 16 2020 at 10:23
yes to "Sands of Time". If Micky was around he would be all over this. I will say it again, that song is a balm for the soul. It's a portal to a better world for 7+ minutes. That moment when the first part shifts into the second is a spine tingler. I need to listen to "Dust" as I can't remember it now. Another good one from Future Games is "Women of a Thousand Years'
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 16 2020 at 10:33
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 16 2020 at 11:04
Hey Steve! they do seem to fall in that unloved period but there are more of us than you might imagine. I do think the albums, like most Fleetwood Mac work, can be a bit uneven, no doubt at least partly the result of having 3 singers and writers who were not always on the same page . Did you ever hear Danny Kirwan's solo work? I haven't but wondered what it was like
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 16 2020 at 11:19
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Posted By: Heart of the Matter
Date Posted: November 16 2020 at 13:23
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Well, seeing the last Steve-Ken exchange I must conclude that there might be lots of unloved music out there, that many people actually love! Why would that be? Let me guess: More haters repeating the same nonsense until we believe it, than real appreciation of the art. Anyway, I've listened time ago to Danny Kirwan's Second Chapter, and I liked it. As I remember, the main difference with his work in the Mac lies in the nostalgic tone, something like that old vignette feel in the album of Van Dyke Parks with Brian Wilson. I'll try to recover it to check this memory... |
Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 03:23
Is Baroque Pop generally considered as part of the substrate which gave rise to prog? ------------- “Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello |
Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 03:24
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If “Surfs Up” doesn’t qualify Brian Wilson as a proto-prog genius, then I just don’t know. ------------- “Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello |
Posted By: Artik
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 04:00
| Crimson debut wasn't the only fully fleged prog album released in October 1969. The other one was Renaissance debut (pre-Haslam lineup) which remains sadly overlooked. |
Posted By: Artik
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 04:03
| And the first Caravan from 1968 should be mentioned as another proto-prog brick in the prog wall :) |
Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: March 12 2021 at 04:05
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