AntiFa: Principled Vandals or Just Thugs?

Until more people heed the words of the masters the world will continue in shambles.  Leaders such as Martin Luther King and Gandhi understood this and made a huge impact.

Everyone is hurting in some way, so go out and hug a white supremacist.

                                                     watch the video

They're just insane thugs who refuse to shower. Many are probably paid as well.

Edited by rogerthat - September 10 2017 at 04:20

It;s a tough one when it comes to inclusivity. I think many want to be inclusive, but see people and communities that appear exclusive (such as a case here where an organization tried to get an Air Cadets group set up specifically for Sikhs, but that contravened the Cadets standards of inclusivity).

I agree with your comments, and would like to mention that I grew up with knowing Hindu family that was very close to my family who have expressed much the same (they are a family of academics and scientists though, and far more sophisticated than I -- and the children that married all married outside of that culture). My dad spoke Urdu, and several other languages, and had lived in the Indian subcontient for several years.

I have not been exposed to much overt racism here, but there is definitely a culturalism that is gaining momentum amongst people who resent other cultures taking over -- rather like the clash of cultures that one hears about from Europe due to the rise of Islamic extremism, as well as the high immigration rates. Vancouver has changed so obviously and so rapidly, with huge enclaves of people from a cultural background that don't seem to interact much with other cultures and the families wear traditional dress, show off their religious affiliation, and build massive homes that sometimes loom like fortresses (like the new and very ostentatious house next to me that does not fit the other houses at all) to fit their massive extended families which has changed the environment. Kids are even being taught in the native languages in faith schools, and I notice kids at the public schools separating into ethnic/ religious groups.

I wish we had more integration. Diversity can strengthen a community, but it can also cause schism. I rather think that more diversity is key, it's when one culture seemingly displaces another that anger arises, but if you have lots of cultures living side-by-side well, the children make bonds which helps the parents to become friends. I likely wouldn't choose to live in an area with only one culture or skin colour, not that it matters much, I just want intelligent, reasonably educated and thoughtful neighbours with an assortment of fine liquors to enjoy. I would much rather not see all the signs of religion to be honest. Be it niquabs, hajibs, turbans or habits -- those nuns and their bad habits. ;)

Anyway, the anti-immigration segment is gaining serious momentum here, and I do think that not only culturalism is on the rise, but racism too as resentment sets in. They complain that the cultures coming in are not being asked to adapt whereas the current dominant culture is expected to adapt to fit them in.

Conservatives, mostly, have accused government of not putting Canadian-born people first. Trudeau took a lot of flack for making comments such as "Anytime I meet people who got to make the deliberate choice, whose parents chose Canada, I’m jealous. Because I think being able to choose it, rather than being Canadian by default, is an amazing statement of attachment to Canada. This is your country more than it is for others because we take it for granted." He's tried to be very inclusive with representation of minorities and women in Parliament and in his cabinet, but people complained that it should have been more about choosing the best people for the job than such cultural and sexual representation. There has also been blowback from pushing and passing an anti-Islamophobia motion (put forward by Liberal MP Irqa Khalid). I rather think they had better start hiring lots of psychiatrists to diagnose if it is a clinical phobia and consider potential treatment.

With such a rapid change, as with Greater Vancouver, assimilation does become more challenging, but people are not of like mind as to whether or to what extent integration is a good thing. Our current government seems to take one inclusive "welcome one and all" extreme, partially as anti-Trump strategy, and other groups take other extremes (stay out, or fully assimilate...). I think most would agree that immigration should be controlled and that some elements and cultural attitudes are more desirable than others.

Edited by Logan - September 09 2017 at 05:10

That's much more readable, thanks. Too hard for me to respond in kind as the post fills up with code, and becomes block text when I use the quote function, but....

I was born in Canada but have lived around a bit (I visit the US frequently, but I have never lived there). My parents emigrated from England and Australia. I can't deeply identify with the American experience, and even my Canadian experience would be very different from people who grew up in different circumstances, from different ethnic backgrounds, and in different regions. So although I know a fair bit about US history, I haven't lived it, or really felt it.

As for your service, I'm sorry for the harm it caused. I enlisted right out of high school, but t didn't work out, I basically sabotaged my chances at a career, and I certainly never saw any action (I was pretty much destined to only be a paper pusher anyway had I persevered, and was only it for the spiffy dress uniform and free university, to be honest). Having depression, I was not doing that well in terms of the psych evaluations, and with my anxiety disorder, I could not have handled much.

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Tangential-notes just cause I feel like typing: Racism is a concern of mine where I live partially because my wife is not of European ancestry, and my kids are half East Asian. My kids always get identified with my wife's ancestry and never mine (rather like Barrack Obama where people focused on the African side of his ancestry, and identified him as black, which to me seemed strange, but I do think Canadians are traditionally rather more colour blind).

We do have the rise of Antifa-like groups in Canada as well.

See this about an antiimmigration rally in Vancouver:

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/anti-immigration-rally-at-vancouver-city-hall

Largely in response to Trump, he has his supporters here too, and where I live racism because of the demographics shift and the rising cost of real estate, as well as changes in architecture, and a move to multi-family living because of immigration (and people buying properties from overseas).   Where I live, greater Greater Vancouver, I definitely noted a sharp rise in issues about racism and reportage on racism (or bigotry more generally). Part of that is because, other than Chinatown, it used to be so very white, but there has been a massive influx of immigrants from China, India, Pakistan, Philippines, Iran and elsewhere. If I go to thee local WalMart, I am in the minority. Most are Punjabi, but a lot are brown, and quite a few black, Moslems. You see women in Burqas, people dressed traditionally, and the signs of religion are everywhere. Where I lived last, the majority were Chinese, but also plenty of Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Koreans. If I go to the local movie theatre, I mostly hear Punjabi.

The shift has been very fast and many whites who have had family living here for generations feel like they are being pushed out. I think here it's not so much racism that is the issue, but more one of culture and economics. There is a big push here and elsewhere in Canada against multiculturalism as many people think that the cultures can not live in harmony and the culture of a region should be preserved. We haven't had the melting-pot ideal so much, so you find big parts of Surrey (part of the greater greater Vancouver region) that are mostly Sikh, and parts of Richmond that are mostly Chinese (sometimes you don't even find any signs in English). And partially because so many people have English as a second language, you don't find as much mixing of races/ cultures as one might hope for.

In the community Where I live right now, there are many Punjabi families moving in, and I am hearing people who are disgruntled. Partially because so many houses are getting knocked down. I live in a very treed area, greenery is getting demolished, monster houses are being built, and these family homes have multi-generational families. It's a strain on the school system as they are more likely to have larger families and the immigration has led to
densification. Heck, I was irritated to no ends by the demolition of a neighbour's house, the loud Indian music by the workers and the massive house that seems to stick out like a sore thumb does not make me happy.   It's a big adjustment and many whites are very displeased (on the other hand, those of us who own houses often can sell them for millions and move elsewhere).

^^ Yeah, Micky, it was reminding me of Ivan's old posting. Nothing wrong with that if you have good eyes and the right mind-set, but even when I could read those, they just became confusing (would read a bit like trying to have a conversation where someone is constantly interrupting your train of thought instead of the organic, casual free-flowing conversational style that I tend to favour). Mind you, I'm easily confused at the best of times.

Anyway, that's interesting about your younger friend. Part of it for me is that I just have difficulty empathizing with individuals involved in AntiFa and related movements over the years. There's a mob mentality at play that I have never identified with in such groups any more than I can identify with the mobs on the right. I have worked hard to control emotion, rather like Spock but not so successful, and seeing others, as I see it, wearing their emotions, their anger, on their sleeves makes me uncomfortable, although I can understand it. My reaction to them says a lot about me, my idealism, what I'm comfortable with, as well as my personal experiences with militant individuals.

There is a an ongoing culture war, really various culture wars, and I agree that Trump has helped to radicalize bases, both those for him or at least for issues they associate with him, and against him. He's galvanized people as he represents so much that is bad about society. He represents so much that I find despicable, and many of his supporters are not bad people, just gullible. How the poor, and middle-class, still thinks that he represents them I find very disheartening, but as he said, he loves the poorly educated. I mean, wow, he knows he can still say that out loud and get their vote -- the joke's on them. And when I say educated, I'm not talking about institutes of higher learning, I mean people who have inquiring minds, and were interested enough in finding out the truth to put time into research and educate themselves. Without the ignorant, and without the idiotic, he could not have won.

I'm really lame, and am glad that people are taking action. Aside from the odd event, or meeting, I've only ever been a keyboard warrior, safe behind my keyboard or pen. I volunteered for a long with Amnesty International... writing letters, never in the thick of it. I lack the courage to put my safety on the line. So good for many of those righteous people who are willing to put themselves on the line to try to make the world a better place (at least those who are trying to make the world the better kind of place that I want it to be -- to once again be cliche, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but then it's obviously also paved with bad intentions, but that's relative to what one considers to be the good, or bad).

Anyway, I'm just rambling as I had nothing in particular that I wanted to say, but surely something needs to happen, and I think that Trump's win is a sign that the education system is not working as it should be. It's not creating enough critical thinkers, and I argue here that ethics is not being emphasized enough in the curriculum. A good teacher helps the students to learn "how" to think, how to think critically to question things, to reevaluate their assumptions, and to dig deep. And to not just learn facts, but value truth-and become truth-seekers. Life should always be a learning process where we even question those notions we hold as most sacred. Unfortunately, many people are too used to faith rather than reason. There are good people who have faith in Trump despite the evidence, obviously he also has lot of nasty supporters. Look at twitter to see how his supporters use insult rather than reason. They act like little kids trying to bully other little kids. Some recognize his flaws but still support his agenda. Some are only interested in one issue and so they rally to him as they see him defending it.

One reason why Trump won is because he was not seen as soft on terrrorism or illegal immigration. They thought, here'a tough talker who doesn't mince words. Here's a guy who makes no attempt to be politically correct, and will keep those Islamists out of our country. Republicans have a tendency to deal in fear and play on those fears. Also, of course because the workers felt that he would protect their jobs. The coal one is ridiculous as there has beena move away from coal for a long time, and it really is a small industry.

People felt that despite him being disgustingly rich, but not as rich as he claimed before becoming President, he talked like regular people -- he was one of them. He was a Beverly Hillbilly type. He would fight for them, and help to keep their jobs, and I think there was a deep suspicion of perceived intellectualism. The Republicans do well no matter the candidate with right wing evangelical church organizations in the US. And of course many people thought, hes going to stand for principles we believe in, and he's not going to take our guns away. He appeals to intolerant people, and with his political incorrectness, and shooting off his mouth, it makes some people feel more comfortable showing their own prejudice. They don't have to be in the closet racists and bigots any more. What he's done is brought a festering boil to its head, and I guess someone has to lance it.

He has a lot of support from people who live in fantasy land. I listened to a program recently about the amount of support he has from people who watch soap operas. He has this celebrity, living bigly image that kind of fits their fantasy world, and they lap up the fantasy, the lies that he spreads.

I find it interesting, in a sense, that he had Neo-Nazi support considering that he has Jewish grandkids. But he best fits the Neo-nazi and White Supremacist agenda;they want a war. They want Victory Day.

Anyway, I think that Trump's win shows deep flaws in the education system (on another note, I think faith schools should not be government funded, and would like to see them gone altogether, but that's another discussion even though it relates to the faith and lack of critical thought that helped lead him to victory).

Edited by Logan - September 07 2017 at 14:20

@ Greg.. yeah I could imagine that was holy hell terror to try to read.  I still have flashbacks of the dueling red and blue fonts with Ivan and occasionally regress to those days.

I have difficulty reading that, with all the smoke we have in the air due to wildfires made worse by climate change, it makes my eyes sore.

I can say that I don't like tactics that Antifa have employed while condemning supremacists, the alt-right, religious zealots who claim they have all the answers etc. It's not that I consider Antifa as bad as the other group, but I still don't think that people within the movement are operating within what I consider to be acceptable parameters. It's not even a question of the lesser of two evils, because I think that another group could have well-defined strategies while operating more within the rule of law and make a better difference. Antifa membership is too anonymous for one thing, so it attracts people that are unruly and undisciplined, and consider themselves to be above the law (people who reputable humanitarian organisations would not want int their ranks (make the organisation look bad). Antifa is more of a movement rather than an organisation (some are organised, but not all), so I know that the analogy is faulty. It's a loose sort-of grass roots organisation which is not very comparable to, say, Doctors Without Borders or Unicef. Sorry, I am prone to non sequiturs and near infinite digressions.

I no more believe in absolute free speech than the concept of free will. Of course there need to be limits on free speech, such as when it incites violence and criminality, and is hate speech. The problem is defining the parameters of hate speech. I like to say feel free to speak your mind but mind your speech, and am keen on the idea that the remedy for hate speech is more speech.

There have been various academics who have been shouted down by people who associate with Antifa, often due to misconception. To me that's idiotic, instead I would far rather they try to debate or have a dialectic with these people from an intellectual perspective. It depends upon who they are targeting, some people can't be reasoned with, but some can be, and for those use logic and well-researched fact-based arguments instead of shooting down any discussion. I believe that all assumptions should be challenged, and every idea is up for discussion. What is see from Antifa and groups like BLM is angry emotion rather than rational discussion.

Their actions are attracting some, but also push others who are on the fence into the alt-right mindset. There are some cases where I do believe that the ends justify the means, but I don't think that the means that many in Antifa support will produce desirable ends (or ends at all, instead feeding fuel to the fire). Opposition is critical, but honestly, you find insanity and irrationality on both sides.

I oppose what Antifa opposes, but I still don't support how actors in this amorphous group are behaving. And I think, at least in western countries where we do have more freedom than in other places, when protesting you should need to hide your identity. It makes a stronger statement when you aren't anonymously listed in the group, and when you don't conceal your face.   Of course people conceal their faces especially when they are about to do illegal activities, as well as for fear of losing jobs, getting expelled from school, ostracism....

I've been to quite a few environmental events and I would not have concealed my identity. And I knew people who did disobey the police in a non-violent way and were prepared to be arrested. I understand that the risk are greater when dealing with Nazis of course as one might be targeted later on. These days everything gets videoed.

I see Antifa supporters as operating much the same as many anarchist and Marxist-Leninist groups have over the years. You get these masked people coming in and doing vandalism and violence for their political and social aims, and we've seen this for decades (like here in Canada at a G8 Summit and at the University of British Columbia before). These same kinds of thugs join various causes, and those people should not be tolerated, and they rile other people up.   There are provocateurs who come in to stir up emotions and bring out the worst in people. No doubt some people who join Antifa protests aren't even really affiliated with the group, or that political, and just join in for mayhem (like the riots in Vancouver when the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup). Some people look for any excuse for violence and destruction.

Of course there are always shades of grey in ethics, but there are ethical standards of my sub-cultural niche that I try to adhere to. Although I was trained to be a moral relativist relatively-speaking (I suppose I have some cognitive dissonance there) I don't consider myself to be one any longer, but I digress.

Like I said before, AntiFa is not a very homogeneous group, it's a very loose group of activists on the left, and so you have different adherents acting differently. Some are anarchists who act like thugs, some no doubt also associate with BLM. It's a kind of umbrella organisation lacking centralized leadership and a agreed on and well-defined manifesto other than "no platform for fascism". The more militant amongst the ranks are not that different from the militant BLM participants. A problem I have is that they don't even seem to have some comprehensive view of what constitutes a fascist, so the targets become wide. They are commonly against liberal democracy, and like Black Lives Matter they try to shut down free speech, and they have threatened people that they don't agree with, employed violence and coercion, and are not open to the exploration of controversial ideas, so have targeted people who are not Nazis, but that that they disagree with even considering certain things. I wouldn't put blowing buildings up as out of reach for members of this group. The ends justify the means for many of them, and if certain Antifa militants think it takes blowing up buildings to get results, I wouldnt be surprised if they were willing to do that. Amongst their ranks are people who are totally opposed to the US as a state, and think that the only way to reform it is to break it. Also, of course, people who have no respect for the rule of law and would sooner take the law into their own hands as they have zero respect for the system.

Some kind of a shake-up is needed, though, and maybe antifa has the potential to become a very constructive organisation, but it also has the potential to become more destructive. Being so disorganised, lacking the hierarchy, members are not being held to a code of ethics, merely adhering to a general principle.

Atavachron wrote: Logan wrote: Neither fascists nor AntiFa come across as very loving, pacifistic, or tolerant to me. Both want to control the rhetoric/ conversation, but then, to be cliche. everybody wants to rule the world. Funny, I've always thought ruling the world would really, really suck.