AntiFa: Principled Vandals or Just Thugs?
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Topic: AntiFa: Principled Vandals or Just Thugs?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: AntiFa: Principled Vandals or Just Thugs?
Date Posted: September 02 2017 at 06:04
| Principled vandals or just stupid thugs who have taken a stand against the alt right, white supremacists and neo Nazis? |
Replies:
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 02 2017 at 07:24
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Both to an extent. Antifa is not a homogeneous group, many are anarchists who seem to delight in violence, disruption, and destruction. but the group's principles commonly include notions such as the end justifies, and are illiberal -- intolerant to any with opposing views. It attracts bad, by my standards, people. Some good ones too, I'm sure, who feel that are making a positive difference. A group like that is going to attract thugs, and their action echo the hate and violence of the groups that they despise. That people in their ranks wear masks and largely remain anonymous is worrisome, but then the anarchist component hates the state and of course they anticipate their extralegal activities (come armed for the fight too). I'm sure that many of them revel in the new political climate in the US and elsewhere and since they don't trust the law, they are all too happy to take the law into their own hands -- how empowering. A lot of them at demonstrations/ rallies, no doubt, are rebels without a clue, and just out for mischief. Their actions also are leading to more support for their enemies and for ideologies that they oppose. Antifa is a hate group that opposes hate groups, and like their extremist, fascistic counterparts, it attracts the dispossessed, the angry who feellike life let them down, alienated people who feel powerless and lack a sense of purpose, and it attracts thugs who enjoy violence, mayhem, and mischief. While ostensibly antiauthoritarian, Antifa wants to become THE authority, respect us or suffer. To them violent and property-damaging (vandalism) extralegal activities are justifiable. Such angry people in their ranks. Instead of attempting dialogue they disrupt, instead of peaceful resistance they support violent resistance, instead of dialectic they shout over, and instead of rationality they feed on base, raw emotions. And a lot of them find it fun. To be antifascist and anti-racist is a good thing in my books, but I am a believer in central tenants of liberal democracy such as free speech (except in cases where it incites violence). When they shout people down and take over events, they are not giving people the chance to speak freely, and they believe that these people have no right to be heard. Many of them come across as very irrational and their tactics often seem quite fascist to me. Love trumps hate in my books, maybe if more of them showed love they would be better able to trump Trump and his supporters (really since Trump came into power, and was in the running, that they have been really emboldened, but such groups have been around for a long time. |
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: September 02 2017 at 08:01
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Just about as very irrational and fascist as any other extremist group that ever tread this world to me, welcome to our Black or White world man... However , just notice that one day there will be no more space on Earth for this 'polarizing' behaviour of the human being, our old planet Earth is giving us some hints of the final outcome......just take a look at its South and North poles......... hahaha ------------- The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories... |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: September 02 2017 at 20:56
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The best champions of a principle are not always the best practitioners of a principle. Such as it is. They have not yet sunk to the depths of depravity of those they oppose, but time will tell. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 02 2017 at 21:02
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I don't blame them but I also must side with the feds who consider any act of political violence to be terrorism, or at least to treat political violence as equally illegal. BTW 'Antifa' is not a great name, it evokes undesirable images. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 04 2017 at 01:52
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Most of them I think fall under the category of stupid thugs, all of them should practice some self-reflection.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 04 2017 at 02:26
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I'm sure there are mindless thugs among them, but there is an important distinction to be made between them and their facist counterparts. The far right hate certain groups based on their ethnicity, and many among their ranks seek to harm members of those communities. The so called AntiFa are not guilty of singling out and attacking innocent members of certain communities based on prejudice and blind hatred. They are going up against the fascists for doing just that, which is actually a noble pursuit, as history has shown. There are alwas casualties in war, and there are always bad apples on both sides, but to suggest there is anything close to an equivelance as Trump did is transparently wrong. Fascism can only be countered with violence IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 12:50
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Principled thugs. Their hearts are (somewhat) on the right place. But they are going to do more harm than good to the cause Again, comparing them with fascists and nazis is incredibly idiotic. These groups want to specifically destroy a group of people. Antifa just want to destroy the destruction, so to speak. In theory, eliminate nazis and you eliminate Antifa. Having said that, a true, not thuggish extreme left alternative is needed... ------------- 
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Posted By: Paul Buck
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 13:03
I support the IWW. |
The T wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 13:20
principled vandals...
if I was 20 years younger.. I could have see myself joining.. and beating skinheads over the heads with axehandles hahah. Sure they are domestic terrorists... but I support them I suppose... what really is worse. Apathy or engagement. If Trump has shown one thing, there is no middle ground. Either you support him and the racists and bigots, directly or indirectly through your ignorance and apathy of what he and his f**king party really stand for, or you stand against them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 13:45
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Neither fascists nor AntiFa come across as very loving, pacifistic, or tolerant to me. Both want to control the rhetoric/ conversation, but then, to be cliche. everybody wants to rule the world. (Note: which is not claim that I always support pacifism and tolerance, I don't think that one should be very tolerant of the intolerant and sometimes you have to fight... for your right to party). The comparison I see with fascists isn't so much in the ends (they want different things), but in some of the means (at least with some of their faction). I don't think that destroying Nazis, even in theory, would mean that their movement would end as many of them are committed to opposing a wide range of social and systemic issues that they see as authoritarian, and does not limit itself to Nazism and Nazis. I bet many of them have a pretty liberal view of what constitutes Nazism, though. They really do remind me of my college days to quite an extent of when Marxist-Leninists were trying to recruit me (being in Sociology we had many firebrands). |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 14:01
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that is the point Greg... what has love, peace, tolerance and a deep apathy to the forces at play give us.... Trump.... and the legitimization of racists, bigots, law breakers if they are in the business of discrimination or flaunting the law that protect ALL Americans.. not just honky. It isn't the Antifa that started this... is it not the responsibility of Americans to fight back? Sitting down and taking it... or waiting perhaps MAYBE that the same ignorant fools that gave us Trump and his band of idiots and fools in Congress will realize they made a mistake. That isn't going to happen... you know it, I do... we all do. at this point one could argue strongly you don't fight hate and violence with dope and flowery speech.... you don't fight intolerance and hate with words and reason... in a perfect world it would... our world is certainly not that....violence is the most pure direct and applicable solution against those who use it themselves and have for years. It is about time the left finally stopped being a punching bag.. look where it got them.. and this country. Perhaps the time has come to finally solve this rather than spend another century whistling past the graveyard of our very deep and real racial and economic divides. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 14:13
| Righteous people have to fight back, to be apathetic is, well, lazy and unprincipled, but I find tactics they have employed ethically questionable and counter-productive. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 14:43
Funny, I've always thought ruling the world would really, really suck. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 15:06
I had hoped that my incorporation of music references would be a bit funny (Tears for Fears and Beastie Boys). I would love to rule the world, and would declare my right to party by dictatorial decree, but I will settle for rocking my own world rather than rocking every one else's. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 15:12
really? pfff.. I'd love it myself. first thing I'd do.., fire M@X and get rid of Captcha and truly rule the world as Head of the new and improved Progachives and make Pedro the Poet Laureate of the site. then... oh... I'd be judge and jury against Trump. The charge.. Treason of course. His sentence. Oh expect no mercy from me. I'd toss Trump in an east L.A. jail for a weekend... and IF... IF...if he walked out Monday morning I'd exile him and his sons Uday and Qusay to North Korea. then the fun starts... Neo? gone... Prog Related for those sissy bands. next... I'd legalize every f**king drug you could think of. I'd take 10% of the sales of course.. and I'd throw the most badass prog festival you could imagine. All the music, booze, blow and broads one could handle.. or not handle. next up... by this time my better half would want something so I'd throw her a bone. Free Healthcare for all! I'd pay for it out of my 10% cut of drug sales and taxes on the rich. next up... oh yes... I'd add a few bands to PA's that have long been overdue next up... yeah.. time for another party.... this time f**k the prog. I pay Willie whatever he wants and still bring in the best booze, blow and broads that one could handle... or not handle. and that would just be MY first 100 days... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 15:23
I can see that being valid with BLM... not so much with Antifa... ethnics is just shades of grey.. one can find questionablilty in most anything.. especially doing nothing and allowing facists and racists to run rampant. So whatever questionable ethics there might be.. trumped by the good old ends justify the means. Within reason and to this point I've seen nothing that has stepped over the lines... like their counterparts on the right have.. you know.. like blowing up buildings and killing children. counter-productive... BLM can reasonably be arguably to have been counterproductive... but Antifa? NO WAY. Because they haven't crossed the ethnical line they can and do have a great deal of sympathy.. and yes support from those not directly affiliated with them. While some of us are inclinded but too old for that... and other not particularly predisposed to violence or active dissent... they still have a lot of sympathy. The nation first underestimated Trump and his appeal... they'd be making the same mistake to underestimate the visceral hatred Trump (and yes his supporters) have generated. Trump did the impossible... he awoke the sleeping apatheic giant that is the progressive side of America. Our nation was founded on progressive ideals... unfortunately many forgot that.. it took Trump and his direct assault on what truly did make America great to remind them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 16:24
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Of course there are always shades of grey in ethics, but there are ethical standards of my sub-cultural niche that I try to adhere to. Although I was trained to be a moral relativist relatively-speaking (I suppose I have some cognitive dissonance there) I don't consider myself to be one any longer, but I digress. Like I said before, AntiFa is not a very homogeneous group, it's a very loose group of activists on the left, and so you have different adherents acting differently. Some are anarchists who act like thugs, some no doubt also associate with BLM. It's a kind of umbrella organisation lacking centralized leadership and a agreed on and well-defined manifesto other than "no platform for fascism". The more militant amongst the ranks are not that different from the militant BLM participants. A problem I have is that they don't even seem to have some comprehensive view of what constitutes a fascist, so the targets become wide. They are commonly against liberal democracy, and like Black Lives Matter they try to shut down free speech, and they have threatened people that they don't agree with, employed violence and coercion, and are not open to the exploration of controversial ideas, so have targeted people who are not Nazis, but that that they disagree with even considering certain things. I wouldn't put blowing buildings up as out of reach for members of this group. The ends justify the means for many of them, and if certain Antifa militants think it takes blowing up buildings to get results, I wouldnt be surprised if they were willing to do that. Amongst their ranks are people who are totally opposed to the US as a state, and think that the only way to reform it is to break it. Also, of course, people who have no respect for the rule of law and would sooner take the law into their own hands as they have zero respect for the system. Some kind of a shake-up is needed, though, and maybe antifa has the potential to become a very constructive organisation, but it also has the potential to become more destructive. Being so disorganised, lacking the hierarchy, members are not being held to a code of ethics, merely adhering to a general principle. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 05 2017 at 17:16
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 06 2017 at 10:45
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I have difficulty reading that, with all the smoke we have in the air due to wildfires made worse by climate change, it makes my eyes sore. I can say that I don't like tactics that Antifa have employed while condemning supremacists, the alt-right, religious zealots who claim they have all the answers etc. It's not that I consider Antifa as bad as the other group, but I still don't think that people within the movement are operating within what I consider to be acceptable parameters. It's not even a question of the lesser of two evils, because I think that another group could have well-defined strategies while operating more within the rule of law and make a better difference. Antifa membership is too anonymous for one thing, so it attracts people that are unruly and undisciplined, and consider themselves to be above the law (people who reputable humanitarian organisations would not want int their ranks (make the organisation look bad). Antifa is more of a movement rather than an organisation (some are organised, but not all), so I know that the analogy is faulty. It's a loose sort-of grass roots organisation which is not very comparable to, say, Doctors Without Borders or Unicef. Sorry, I am prone to non sequiturs and near infinite digressions. I no more believe in absolute free speech than the concept of free will. Of course there need to be limits on free speech, such as when it incites violence and criminality, and is hate speech. The problem is defining the parameters of hate speech. I like to say feel free to speak your mind but mind your speech, and am keen on the idea that the remedy for hate speech is more speech. There have been various academics who have been shouted down by people who associate with Antifa, often due to misconception. To me that's idiotic, instead I would far rather they try to debate or have a dialectic with these people from an intellectual perspective. It depends upon who they are targeting, some people can't be reasoned with, but some can be, and for those use logic and well-researched fact-based arguments instead of shooting down any discussion. I believe that all assumptions should be challenged, and every idea is up for discussion. What is see from Antifa and groups like BLM is angry emotion rather than rational discussion. Their actions are attracting some, but also push others who are on the fence into the alt-right mindset. There are some cases where I do believe that the ends justify the means, but I don't think that the means that many in Antifa support will produce desirable ends (or ends at all, instead feeding fuel to the fire). Opposition is critical, but honestly, you find insanity and irrationality on both sides. I oppose what Antifa opposes, but I still don't support how actors in this amorphous group are behaving. And I think, at least in western countries where we do have more freedom than in other places, when protesting you should need to hide your identity. It makes a stronger statement when you aren't anonymously listed in the group, and when you don't conceal your face. Of course people conceal their faces especially when they are about to do illegal activities, as well as for fear of losing jobs, getting expelled from school, ostracism.... I've been to quite a few environmental events and I would not have concealed my identity. And I knew people who did disobey the police in a non-violent way and were prepared to be arrested. I understand that the risk are greater when dealing with Nazis of course as one might be targeted later on. These days everything gets videoed. I see Antifa supporters as operating much the same as many anarchist and Marxist-Leninist groups have over the years. You get these masked people coming in and doing vandalism and violence for their political and social aims, and we've seen this for decades (like here in Canada at a G8 Summit and at the University of British Columbia before). These same kinds of thugs join various causes, and those people should not be tolerated, and they rile other people up. There are provocateurs who come in to stir up emotions and bring out the worst in people. No doubt some people who join Antifa protests aren't even really affiliated with the group, or that political, and just join in for mayhem (like the riots in Vancouver when the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup). Some people look for any excuse for violence and destruction. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 06 2017 at 11:47
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AntiFa is nothing new, radical left wing anarchists are a tradition on The US west coast, NYC, and major cities in Europe and Latin America and elsewhere going back for many decades. I rubbed shoulders with these types on the west coast when I was much younger. These groups tend to have a mix of educated anti-fascist revolutionaries, prankster kids who like the giddy thrill of defying authority, and a few loose nuts who are just anti-social malcontents. As far as the current bunch goes, I think its only right to violently attack Nazis and the Klan, but physically attacking people at a generic Trump rally is wrong. Its counterproductive and is doing more harm than good, it only builds sympathy for the Trump folks and makes anti-fascists look like the bad guy. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 06 2017 at 16:49
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@ Greg.. yeah I could imagine that was holy hell terror to try to read. I still have flashbacks of the dueling red and blue fonts with Ivan and occasionally regress to those days. For what it is worth, I asked my best friend, what he thought. Being a bit, say 15 years younger than me, what he thought and it seemed pretty much a cut and paste of your thoughts. Perhaps I may be, though I do not think I am, misreading the situation here. Violence and hate has been used by the right for years. Was it counterproductive for them... generate sympathy lasting past a single news cycle. Hell no it did not. I do sincerely believe it is a war here Greg, the Culture War.. ie the 2nd American Civil War. It isn't something new, but going on for years. However it was long a one legged ass kicking contest with the right waging war on the left. The level of vitriol and hate has led to violence. Who was decrying it then. Past the single news cycle short attention span of most of America. What has changed.. Trump has changed the equation. Gone is the hope that reason not to mention self interest can drive voters to reject what racism that the Republican Party deals in. Gone is thinking common sense and reason will win out. Trump's election threw that hope completely out the window. He is tearing this country apart. This is not thinking that Bush was a bad President or Ronnie's policies were destructive... Trump is an assault on basic American values that a good many feel strongly about. If people feel strongly about that to take the streets well Goddamit man... that is just what we have always done in the course of our history. Some higher notions and ideals simply are worth fighting for. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 06 2017 at 17:19
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I think the truly hard part for me is realizing how many people voted for him. The two landslides of Reagan in the 80s, Dukakis' limp campaign against Bush, Al Gore's stunning loss, it all seems to pale in comparison. And yes, those halcyon days of the traditional conservative are, amazingly, missed. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 07 2017 at 14:02
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^^ Yeah, Micky, it was reminding me of Ivan's old posting. Nothing wrong with that if you have good eyes and the right mind-set, but even when I could read those, they just became confusing (would read a bit like trying to have a conversation where someone is constantly interrupting your train of thought instead of the organic, casual free-flowing conversational style that I tend to favour). Mind you, I'm easily confused at the best of times. Anyway, that's interesting about your younger friend. Part of it for me is that I just have difficulty empathizing with individuals involved in AntiFa and related movements over the years. There's a mob mentality at play that I have never identified with in such groups any more than I can identify with the mobs on the right. I have worked hard to control emotion, rather like Spock but not so successful, and seeing others, as I see it, wearing their emotions, their anger, on their sleeves makes me uncomfortable, although I can understand it. My reaction to them says a lot about me, my idealism, what I'm comfortable with, as well as my personal experiences with militant individuals. There is a an ongoing culture war, really various culture wars, and I agree that Trump has helped to radicalize bases, both those for him or at least for issues they associate with him, and against him. He's galvanized people as he represents so much that is bad about society. He represents so much that I find despicable, and many of his supporters are not bad people, just gullible. How the poor, and middle-class, still thinks that he represents them I find very disheartening, but as he said, he loves the poorly educated. I mean, wow, he knows he can still say that out loud and get their vote -- the joke's on them. And when I say educated, I'm not talking about institutes of higher learning, I mean people who have inquiring minds, and were interested enough in finding out the truth to put time into research and educate themselves. Without the ignorant, and without the idiotic, he could not have won. I'm really lame, and am glad that people are taking action. Aside from the odd event, or meeting, I've only ever been a keyboard warrior, safe behind my keyboard or pen. I volunteered for a long with Amnesty International... writing letters, never in the thick of it. I lack the courage to put my safety on the line. So good for many of those righteous people who are willing to put themselves on the line to try to make the world a better place (at least those who are trying to make the world the better kind of place that I want it to be -- to once again be cliche, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but then it's obviously also paved with bad intentions, but that's relative to what one considers to be the good, or bad). Anyway, I'm just rambling as I had nothing in particular that I wanted to say, but surely something needs to happen, and I think that Trump's win is a sign that the education system is not working as it should be. It's not creating enough critical thinkers, and I argue here that ethics is not being emphasized enough in the curriculum. A good teacher helps the students to learn "how" to think, how to think critically to question things, to reevaluate their assumptions, and to dig deep. And to not just learn facts, but value truth-and become truth-seekers. Life should always be a learning process where we even question those notions we hold as most sacred. Unfortunately, many people are too used to faith rather than reason. There are good people who have faith in Trump despite the evidence, obviously he also has lot of nasty supporters. Look at twitter to see how his supporters use insult rather than reason. They act like little kids trying to bully other little kids. Some recognize his flaws but still support his agenda. Some are only interested in one issue and so they rally to him as they see him defending it. One reason why Trump won is because he was not seen as soft on terrrorism or illegal immigration. They thought, here'a tough talker who doesn't mince words. Here's a guy who makes no attempt to be politically correct, and will keep those Islamists out of our country. Republicans have a tendency to deal in fear and play on those fears. Also, of course because the workers felt that he would protect their jobs. The coal one is ridiculous as there has beena move away from coal for a long time, and it really is a small industry. People felt that despite him being disgustingly rich, but not as rich as he claimed before becoming President, he talked like regular people -- he was one of them. He was a Beverly Hillbilly type. He would fight for them, and help to keep their jobs, and I think there was a deep suspicion of perceived intellectualism. The Republicans do well no matter the candidate with right wing evangelical church organizations in the US. And of course many people thought, hes going to stand for principles we believe in, and he's not going to take our guns away. He appeals to intolerant people, and with his political incorrectness, and shooting off his mouth, it makes some people feel more comfortable showing their own prejudice. They don't have to be in the closet racists and bigots any more. What he's done is brought a festering boil to its head, and I guess someone has to lance it. He has a lot of support from people who live in fantasy land. I listened to a program recently about the amount of support he has from people who watch soap operas. He has this celebrity, living bigly image that kind of fits their fantasy world, and they lap up the fantasy, the lies that he spreads. I find it interesting, in a sense, that he had Neo-Nazi support considering that he has Jewish grandkids. But he best fits the Neo-nazi and White Supremacist agenda;they want a war. They want Victory Day. Anyway, I think that Trump's win shows deep flaws in the education system (on another note, I think faith schools should not be government funded, and would like to see them gone altogether, but that's another discussion even though it relates to the faith and lack of critical thought that helped lead him to victory). |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 07 2017 at 19:19
we'll try this again Greg haha  and f**k YOU Captcha.. I did save... why do you bother...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
I did often best him, yet while I forgave him, I never forgot the one time I can remember he got the best of me (Jon Lord). Good times. Never had a more worthy adversary to match wits, smarts, not to mention pure nasty petty deviousness with. Our RPI battle was legendary..I still smile over that every time I get a ... oh you are the one that is responsible for RPI. Oh what it took to get .... and how many admin threats during that battle.
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 08 2017 at 12:00
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That's much more readable, thanks. Too hard for me to respond in kind as the post fills up with code, and becomes block text when I use the quote function, but.... I was born in Canada but have lived around a bit (I visit the US frequently, but I have never lived there). My parents emigrated from England and Australia. I can't deeply identify with the American experience, and even my Canadian experience would be very different from people who grew up in different circumstances, from different ethnic backgrounds, and in different regions. So although I know a fair bit about US history, I haven't lived it, or really felt it. As for your service, I'm sorry for the harm it caused. I enlisted right out of high school, but t didn't work out, I basically sabotaged my chances at a career, and I certainly never saw any action (I was pretty much destined to only be a paper pusher anyway had I persevered, and was only it for the spiffy dress uniform and free university, to be honest). Having depression, I was not doing that well in terms of the psych evaluations, and with my anxiety disorder, I could not have handled much. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Tangential-notes just cause I feel like typing: Racism is a concern of mine where I live partially because my wife is not of European ancestry, and my kids are half East Asian. My kids always get identified with my wife's ancestry and never mine (rather like Barrack Obama where people focused on the African side of his ancestry, and identified him as black, which to me seemed strange, but I do think Canadians are traditionally rather more colour blind). We do have the rise of Antifa-like groups in Canada as well. See this about an antiimmigration rally in Vancouver: http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/anti-immigration-rally-at-vancouver-city-hall" rel="nofollow - http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/anti-immigration-rally-at-vancouver-city-hall Largely in response to Trump, he has his supporters here too, and where I live racism because of the demographics shift and the rising cost of real estate, as well as changes in architecture, and a move to multi-family living because of immigration (and people buying properties from overseas). Where I live, greater Greater Vancouver, I definitely noted a sharp rise in issues about racism and reportage on racism (or bigotry more generally). Part of that is because, other than Chinatown, it used to be so very white, but there has been a massive influx of immigrants from China, India, Pakistan, Philippines, Iran and elsewhere. If I go to thee local WalMart, I am in the minority. Most are Punjabi, but a lot are brown, and quite a few black, Moslems. You see women in Burqas, people dressed traditionally, and the signs of religion are everywhere. Where I lived last, the majority were Chinese, but also plenty of Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Koreans. If I go to the local movie theatre, I mostly hear Punjabi. The shift has been very fast and many whites who have had family living here for generations feel like they are being pushed out. I think here it's not so much racism that is the issue, but more one of culture and economics. There is a big push here and elsewhere in Canada against multiculturalism as many people think that the cultures can not live in harmony and the culture of a region should be preserved. We haven't had the melting-pot ideal so much, so you find big parts of Surrey (part of the greater greater Vancouver region) that are mostly Sikh, and parts of Richmond that are mostly Chinese (sometimes you don't even find any signs in English). And partially because so many people have English as a second language, you don't find as much mixing of races/ cultures as one might hope for. In the community Where I live right now, there are many Punjabi families moving in, and I am hearing people who are disgruntled. Partially because so many houses are getting knocked down. I live in a very treed area, greenery is getting demolished, monster houses are being built, and these family homes have multi-generational families. It's a strain on the school system as they are more likely to have larger families and the immigration has led to densification. Heck, I was irritated to no ends by the demolition of a neighbour's house, the loud Indian music by the workers and the massive house that seems to stick out like a sore thumb does not make me happy. It's a big adjustment and many whites are very displeased (on the other hand, those of us who own houses often can sell them for millions and move elsewhere). |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 08 2017 at 21:12
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^^^ I would like to interject here (not otherwise qualified to comment on AntiFa) on your point about the melting point scenario. Personally, I dislike Indians who go abroad to work and continue to flaunt their Indianness proudly. This is different from say somebody who does not have the education or know how to assimilate a new culture. I know Indians who insist on wearing a little Brahminical tuft to office in USA. It would look awkward in metropolitan India and you are doing it there? I believe in the old adage that when in Rome, do as the Romans do. No, this is not me justifying the racist undertones in a disgruntled white person's insistence that immigrants should give up their culture. I am saying it also behooves the immigrants to make an effort to fit in. Else just stay back, seriously. If you go there just to chase the greenback and disdain their culture, don't be surprised if they call you out on it. I find cabbies who play loud Bollywood music while waiting for their client irritating but I don't do anything about it because it's India and this is what we do. Anybody doing that in Canada is just a moron. I know some whites on the left feel very touchy about calling this out but as a native Indian, I have no compunctions in calling a spade a spade. Try to be quiet, polite and speak a smattering of English at the very least. It's not very difficult. When we visited America, we never felt looked down upon by anyone and I'd like to think a large part of that was just us being mindful of written or unwritten rules in the new land and not making pretexts that we are Indian and this is how we are.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 09 2017 at 02:38
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It;s a tough one when it comes to inclusivity. I think many want to be inclusive, but see people and communities that appear exclusive (such as a case here where an organization tried to get an Air Cadets group set up specifically for Sikhs, but that contravened the Cadets standards of inclusivity). I agree with your comments, and would like to mention that I grew up with knowing Hindu family that was very close to my family who have expressed much the same (they are a family of academics and scientists though, and far more sophisticated than I -- and the children that married all married outside of that culture). My dad spoke Urdu, and several other languages, and had lived in the Indian subcontient for several years. I have not been exposed to much overt racism here, but there is definitely a culturalism that is gaining momentum amongst people who resent other cultures taking over -- rather like the clash of cultures that one hears about from Europe due to the rise of Islamic extremism, as well as the high immigration rates. Vancouver has changed so obviously and so rapidly, with huge enclaves of people from a cultural background that don't seem to interact much with other cultures and the families wear traditional dress, show off their religious affiliation, and build massive homes that sometimes loom like fortresses (like the new and very ostentatious house next to me that does not fit the other houses at all) to fit their massive extended families which has changed the environment. Kids are even being taught in the native languages in faith schools, and I notice kids at the public schools separating into ethnic/ religious groups. I wish we had more integration. Diversity can strengthen a community, but it can also cause schism. I rather think that more diversity is key, it's when one culture seemingly displaces another that anger arises, but if you have lots of cultures living side-by-side well, the children make bonds which helps the parents to become friends. I likely wouldn't choose to live in an area with only one culture or skin colour, not that it matters much, I just want intelligent, reasonably educated and thoughtful neighbours with an assortment of fine liquors to enjoy. I would much rather not see all the signs of religion to be honest. Be it niquabs, hajibs, turbans or habits -- those nuns and their bad habits. ;) Anyway, the anti-immigration segment is gaining serious momentum here, and I do think that not only culturalism is on the rise, but racism too as resentment sets in. They complain that the cultures coming in are not being asked to adapt whereas the current dominant culture is expected to adapt to fit them in. Conservatives, mostly, have accused government of not putting Canadian-born people first. Trudeau took a lot of flack for making comments such as "Anytime I meet people who got to make the deliberate choice, whose parents chose Canada, I’m jealous. Because I think being able to choose it, rather than being Canadian by default, is an amazing statement of attachment to Canada. This is your country more than it is for others because we take it for granted." He's tried to be very inclusive with representation of minorities and women in Parliament and in his cabinet, but people complained that it should have been more about choosing the best people for the job than such cultural and sexual representation. There has also been blowback from pushing and passing an anti-Islamophobia motion (put forward by Liberal MP Irqa Khalid). I rather think they had better start hiring lots of psychiatrists to diagnose if it is a clinical phobia and consider potential treatment. With such a rapid change, as with Greater Vancouver, assimilation does become more challenging, but people are not of like mind as to whether or to what extent integration is a good thing. Our current government seems to take one inclusive "welcome one and all" extreme, partially as anti-Trump strategy, and other groups take other extremes (stay out, or fully assimilate...). I think most would agree that immigration should be controlled and that some elements and cultural attitudes are more desirable than others. |
Posted By: ALotOfBottle
Date Posted: September 09 2017 at 03:54
Word. ------------- Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 10 2017 at 04:20
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@ Logan Wonderful to hear that. Then you probably also know that Urdu was the language of choice for Bollywood in the 'good old days' and many fine lyricists, mostly Muslim but also some Hindus like Shailendra, wrote immortal verses for Bollywood songs in the 50s and 60s arguably coming up to the 70s. It's a sign of the times that Urdu is now viewed as an impure language in some sections and the Hindu rightwing has attempted to reintroduce chaste Hindi which frankly lacks the poetic beauty of Urdu. Something somewhere has triggered our most primal instinct to join tribes and exclude those not part of the tribe; maybe it's just a fear of what hyperglobalisation will lead us into combined with the elites' pigheaded insistence on driving us headlong into it without bearing any costs for the mistakes committed by them in the process (a la the subprime scandal).
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 10 2017 at 09:11
| I have read a thing or two about Urdu in ye olden golden days of Mumbai musical cinema. What my dad liked to talk about was just how commonly long the movies were, since people liked to get into the cinema and out of the heat, and felt that if the movie wasn't very long people didn't feel like they were getting their monies worth. Urdu has a long history of poetry, and it's such a shame that tribalism and chauvinism proves so persistent around the world. Exclusivity seems to be becoming more and more acceptable and pushed for, and it's becoming the newest oldest religion (and yes to any pedants, I know that's a too shallow statement, but I like the sound of "newest oldest" religion -- it's rather poetic). |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: September 13 2017 at 04:43
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They're just insane thugs who refuse to shower. Many are probably paid as well. When the far right and far left grow to this extent, it's a sign that you've been ignoring some very fundamental issues for far too long.
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 12:09
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They mean well, and (hopefully) like most I share the belief we need to stop fascism, but they go about it the wrong way, and in the end will do more harm than good. Even if they reject "liberalism" the fact this is foolish thinking. Until changes happen, which are always slow and incremental, we have to work with what we have...cant say "Well the Democrats/liberals aren't what we want either" because the alternative IS worse. If someone doesn't see that, as a leftist, they are a tad off the rails in my book. I will say, while your intentions may be good, if you are roving around in an armed militia ready to fight in the streets...I care little for the ideological differences, you're not much better than the extreme right, but ironically are feeding into what they want (scaring people into law and order) EDIT: Oh, I forgot. They may not care, even welcome Trump and Republicans, because some are accelerationists. This is rarely said in public I'd imagine (which is why they resort to vague defenses) because it's kind of hard to defend the worsening of conditions for the masses...so we can get a specific ideal, to help the masses  |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: September 14 2017 at 13:36
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Until more people heed the words of the masters the world
will continue in shambles. Leaders such
as Martin Luther King and Gandhi understood this and made a huge impact.
watch the video |
Everyone is hurting in some way, so go out and hug a white
supremacist.