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DamoXt7942 
Special Collaborator
Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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 Topic: Jesus Christ! Fact or fiction?
Posted: January 27 2017 at 05:27 |
No prob, Eddie has already said "the epilogue (refrain)".
Thanks all.  |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 27 2017 at 05:00 |
 someone_else wrote:
What makes me marvel is that someone who is deemed non-existent can trouble some people. The non-existence of Bilbo Baggins or Tinker Bell does not trouble anyone (though the Peter Pan's of this world may be a subject of debate ), but Jesus Christ is a totally different story. He is even the only one whose name is used by some as an expletive, something that cannot be said of people whose existence has never been moot. |
A couple of points
- no one claims that Master Baggins or Miss Bell ever existed.
- invoking the name of a deity as an expletive is not restricted to christians, even when it was expressly forbidden in scripture. Even invoking the name of a real person (Gordon Bennett!) can be viewed as a minced oath of religious origin (Gor Blimey == God Blind Me). Similar mincing of religious expletives to lessen their blasphemous attribution were common in more pious times (e.g. Odd's Bodkins!)
While using religious expletives amongst atheists is not unknown I can affirm that it's a difficult habit to break when all around you are using such in everyday speech, especially if said atheist was born and raised as a christian. While I refrain from using them in the written word, should someone pour a glass of iced water down my back I'm pretty confident that in the tirade of expletive that will inevitably ensue several religious oaths will be uttered, none of which will signal my re-adoption of the christian faith or give any indication that I believe any of those deities to be real or fictitious.
someone_else wrote:
Moreover, He is the only one who reveals the religiosity of some atheists  . Could this be an indication of His existence? |
Nope on both counts. Of course I can only speak for myself as an atheist and not for "some atheists", we're not all members of the same club.
I would be equally interested in any statements of historicity in the Norse pantheon if such claims were made by believers of those gods and would rightfully question the veracity of those claims, just as I would if someone claimed that Tinker Bell was real. Neither of those reveal any suppressed personal doubt in non-existence of six-legged horses or jealous fairies.
Now the problem here is not that I question the evidence that Jesus was real (which is a perfectly valid thing to do irrespective of whether you are atheist, theist or all points in between), or question anyone's belief in the divinity of Jesus (which I would never do because it's impossible). Proving Jesus existed should not affect anyone's belief, disbelief or doubts in his divinity a great deal. If Jesus really existed it would not affect my atheism one iota, thou' I suspect some agnostics maybe less doubting as a consequence and some believers would become more devout. But as Steve (Lazland) points out, those beliefs in divinity require faith, not proof.
[I would add that proving that a god existed would also not affect my personal beliefs much either. Light blue touch paper and retire: I'm not an atheist just because I don't believe in a god or gods...]
Questioning the evidence that is used to claim he was real does not (and never can) prove that he wasn't real. Proving he didn't exist at all is infinitely more difficult - in the total absence of direct evidence circumstantial evidence can suggest that he may or may not have existed but lack of evidence can never prove that he didn't. Just as inventive conspiracy theories can never prove that he didn't either.
Where some "atheists" go wrong (IMO) is in applying the reversing that logic of proving that Jesus didn't exist rips the rug out from beneath the believers feet, since he can only be divine if he existed. But as I said, proving conclusively that he didn't exist is as difficult as proving conclusively that he did and far more difficult that proving that he may or may not have. Attempts to prove that he didn't exist are open to the same 'scientific' questioning as any attempts to prove that he did. The only issue there is the fanciful claims presented thus far on that score simply don't inspire me enough to merit a response beyond having a quiet chuckle to myself...
someone_else wrote:
One more thing... After copying and over-copying many sheets of text in this thread the original post on top of page 1 is repeated (^). The start of a cycle? |
Looks more like petulance to me.
someone_else wrote:
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if thine right eye offends thee...?
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What?
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24287
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Posted: January 27 2017 at 02:40 |
What makes me marvel is that someone who is deemed non-existent can trouble some people. The non-existence of Bilbo Baggins or Tinker Bell does not trouble anyone (though the Peter Pan's of this world may be a subject of debate ), but Jesus Christ is a totally different story. He is even the only one whose name is used by some as an expletive, something that cannot be said of anyone whose existence has never been moot. Moreover, He is the only one who reveals the religiosity of some atheists . Could this be an indication of His existence?
One more thing... After copying and over-copying many sheets of text in this thread the original post on top of page 1 is repeated (^). The start of a cycle?
Edited by someone_else - January 27 2017 at 03:05
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 21:41 |
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Jesus didn't exist because he was a story made up by the Romans around 50ad, and there was no place called Nazareth at the time. And indeed no place called Bethlehem at the time. One of the writers of one of the Gospels refers to Jesus as a Nazarine, but this is misunderstood to assume Jesus and his family were from Nazareth, and Jesus and co were not because there was not such a place at the time. And whilst a few hundreds years BC there had been a town called Bethlehem as mentioned in the Jewish scriptures prophesizing the birth of the Messiah (the God of the Messianic Jews), the ignorance of the writers of Luke and Matthew tried to amend the failed attempt of Mark of appeasing the Messianic Jews by writing in the prophesies, so creating the nativity and locating it where there was nothing but barren stony ground.
The Passion is a typical Pagan god story of that time, Mark's account of the Jesus ministry is basically using the writing of Josephus' account of Titus Flavian in the Middle East and Palestine, and then Matthew and Luke bring in more typical Pagan god story to flesh out the nativity and try to keep the Messianic Jews happy. But the Jews never bought it.
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65236
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 19:38 |
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Insincere discussion with defiant attitude cannot produce anything good. |
Very well-worded, my friend. And so true.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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DamoXt7942
Special Collaborator
Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 16:20 |
Insincere discussion with defiant attitude cannot produce anything good. Would you all please cool down and get friendly to others ... before Admins make a decision to close this thread?
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 16:07 |
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Time tells all we know...
We look to tin Jesus on the radio
Pledge me what you got...
I'll give you eternal resting spot
How intense I pray depends on how much you pay.
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 16:00 |
Thatfabulousalien wrote:
Inflammatory?  |
Would have thought so..................  but does not seem to matter here.
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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Thatfabulousalien
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2016
Location: Aussie/NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 1409
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 15:57 |
Inflammatory?
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Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.
https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 15:54 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Now giving the amount of sh*t I'm received for posting these threads- which everyone seems to enjoy posting on - I think I will forget posting anymore of them because this place has become a boys club amongst certain members which I find distasteful - so come up with your own thread Ideas you lazy so and so's |
You posted a thread topic that everyone but you (evidently) consider to be inflammatory and now you're whining that the replies are not to your liking? As an atheist I will readily tell you my beliefs, but I won't go out of my way to attack others for their religious affiliations, nor question their beliefs regarding their specific deity. Coming from America, you have the freedom to have your own delusions -- as long as they don't infringe on other people's freedoms (which, unfortunately, often happens because of religiosity).
And acting like you did everyone a favor posting this thread is a f**king joke. So please, do forget posting your inane threads. No one will lose sleep over their absence.
I suggest that a moderator close this thread. There's really nothing more worthwhile to discuss. |
Yout just a fu*kin* joke and thicker than dark ice |
Along with your inability to type, I consider your insult rather amusing -- in a wholly ironic sense. Let's see, you got all butthurt when someone insulted you (however accurate the comment was), and yet you have no issue denigrating and belittling other posters' personal beliefs in a juvenile manner (as you have throughout this thread). Your hypocrisy is pathetic. |
Likewise...............
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13049
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 15:48 |
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Now giving the amount of sh*t I'm received for posting these threads- which everyone seems to enjoy posting on - I think I will forget posting anymore of them because this place has become a boys club amongst certain members which I find distasteful - so come up with your own thread Ideas you lazy so and so's |
You posted a thread topic that everyone but you (evidently) consider to be inflammatory and now you're whining that the replies are not to your liking? As an atheist I will readily tell you my beliefs, but I won't go out of my way to attack others for their religious affiliations, nor question their beliefs regarding their specific deity. Coming from America, you have the freedom to have your own delusions -- as long as they don't infringe on other people's freedoms (which, unfortunately, often happens because of religiosity).
And acting like you did everyone a favor posting this thread is a f**king joke. So please, do forget posting your inane threads. No one will lose sleep over their absence.
I suggest that a moderator close this thread. There's really nothing more worthwhile to discuss. |
Yout just a fu*kin* joke and thicker than dark ice |
Along with your inability to type, I consider your insult rather amusing -- in a wholly ironic sense. Let's see, you got all butthurt when someone insulted you (however accurate the comment was), and yet you have no issue denigrating and belittling other posters' personal beliefs in a juvenile manner (as you have throughout this thread). Your hypocrisy is pathetic.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 14:30 |
http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case
Ehrman again.........and I recall discussing these ideas many years ago in a discussion group from my local Unitarian Church. Sadly the group disbanded and the Church no longer exists in my area. It was fun for the divergent people and ideas. At any rate I think a case can be made , if one is so inclined, that an historical 'Jesus' existed. But as to the God and divinity theme as many have already said, it's pure speculation and faith.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 13:55 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
Against my better judgement, but here goes nothing... |
Dean wrote:
My judgement proves to be right again. |
Your opinion proves to be right?
By what court of opinion? Sorry,
but that seems bit cute. Could you please back that up with an argument instead of just stating a claim that you are right. |
Every time I get involved with a discussion with you I react badly to something you type which may have seemed innocuous to you but for some reason pushes all the wrong buttons in me, in the early days they resulted in me getting angry, then resentful, finally I've came to expect and accept them so experience mild disappointment and move on, and then after our last exchange I realised that the cause problem was me, not you so I vowed to simply avoid your posts. So, against my better judgement I chose to reply to your comments on one of my posts here, fully expecting some throw-away remark from you to piss me off, which it did and rather than brush it off and move on I responded in kind - ergo my judgement proved to be right. QEf**kingD.
So now, having proved myself right I am walking away from this exchange, as I should have done the last time I said that.
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Responding to your post the first time around, and setting off this exchange, was not my first choice of action either for very similar feelings. As the OP seems to be unable to think, understand or form judgments by process of logic, I felt that
it was important to weigh in a topic that many of us, including you, don’t take
lightly. Which is getting at the truth of subjects like this, without prejudice.
We are both equally responsible for our actions. In some respects, I consider
us to be flipsides of the same coin. However, those two sides remain distinct and separate from one another. Which, in agreeing with you, is how we should stay. As always, I have no hard feelings towards you. Only towards myself at this moment.
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The OP suggests that for cases where their are two sides distinct and separate from one another, you either cut the baby in half or toss a coin............. I for one prefer coin tossing.
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 13:52 |
twseel wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
twseel wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
twseel wrote:
Watch out Aussie, these admins have banned some respectable men before... |
Is that a warning or a threat? |
A warning, certainly no threat, what could I threaten you with?To be fair I don't really notice any insulting or trolling in Eddie's posts... He seems to discuss the existence of Christ in the same way he would the life of Ötzi the Iceman, involving science but also employing some light-hearted(granted, sometimes juvenile) speculation, which might then seem insulting to people who view Christ in a higher personal regard than mr. Ötzi for example, I guess... |
Thanks, dome one seems to get it |
Okay, but you're not really taking the warning... |
Thanks for the warning, but the bush telegraph works pretty good and I'm not bad at handling bush fires............ We get a lot in my neck of the woods.
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 12:24 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
Against my better judgement, but here goes nothing... |
Dean wrote:
My judgement proves to be right again. |
Your opinion proves to be right?
By what court of opinion? Sorry,
but that seems bit cute. Could you please back that up with an argument instead of just stating a claim that you are right. |
Every time I get involved with a discussion with you I react badly to something you type which may have seemed innocuous to you but for some reason pushes all the wrong buttons in me, in the early days they resulted in me getting angry, then resentful, finally I've came to expect and accept them so experience mild disappointment and move on, and then after our last exchange I realised that the cause problem was me, not you so I vowed to simply avoid your posts. So, against my better judgement I chose to reply to your comments on one of my posts here, fully expecting some throw-away remark from you to piss me off, which it did and rather than brush it off and move on I responded in kind - ergo my judgement proved to be right. QEf**kingD.
So now, having proved myself right I am walking away from this exchange, as I should have done the last time I said that.
|
Responding to your post the first time around, and setting off this exchange, was not my first choice of action either for very similar feelings. As the OP seems to be unable to think, understand or form judgments by process of logic, I felt that
it was important to weigh in a topic that many of us, including you, don’t take
lightly. Which is getting at the truth of subjects like this, without prejudice.
We are both equally responsible for our actions. In some respects, I consider
us to be flipsides of the same coin. However, those two sides remain distinct and separate from one another. Which, in agreeing with you, is how we should stay. As always, I have no hard feelings towards you. Only towards myself at this moment.
Edited by SteveG - January 26 2017 at 12:35
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twseel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2012
Location: abroad
Status: Offline
Points: 22767
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 10:28 |
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
twseel wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
twseel wrote:
Watch out Aussie, these admins have banned some respectable men before... |
Is that a warning or a threat? |
A warning, certainly no threat, what could I threaten you with?To be fair I don't really notice any insulting or trolling in Eddie's posts... He seems to discuss the existence of Christ in the same way he would the life of Ötzi the Iceman, involving science but also employing some light-hearted(granted, sometimes juvenile) speculation, which might then seem insulting to people who view Christ in a higher personal regard than mr. Ötzi for example, I guess... |
Thanks, dome one seems to get it |
Okay, but you're not really taking the warning...
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 03:33 |
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I think Frank had it about right......
Frank Zappa
Dumb all over
(Zappa)
From the album You are what you is, 1981:
Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'Cause we behave the same...
*We are dumb all over*
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the Bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
'Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here
You can't run a race
Without no feet
'N pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
'N disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)
You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears *(Get Down!)*
Not his, not hers, *(but what the hey?)*
The Good Book says:
*("It gotta be that way!")*
But their book says:
*"REVENGE THE CRUSADES...
With whips 'n chains
'N hand grenades..."*
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
*"There ain't no other!"*
Our God says
*"It's all okay!"*
Our God says
*"This is the way!"*
It says in the book:
*"Burn 'n destroy...*
*'N repent, 'n redeem*
*'N revenge, 'n deploy*
*'N rumble thee forth*
*To the land of the unbelieving scum on
the other side*
*'Cause they don't go for what's in the
book*
*'N that makes 'em BAD*
*So verily we must choppeth them up*
*And stompeth them down*
*Or rent a nice French bomb*
*To poof them out of existance
*While leaving their real estate just where
we need it*
*To use again*
*For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD*
*("Cause he can really take care of
business!")*
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes
phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'Cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to *hebbin!*
(Depending on which book you're using
at the time...Can't use theirs... it don't work
...it's all lies...Gotta use mine...)
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following *God's Orders*
Hey, let's get serious...
God knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here
An' the book says:
*He made us all to be just like Him,"
so...
If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
*(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)*
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 03:28 |
twseel wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
twseel wrote:
Watch out Aussie, these admins have banned some respectable men before... |
Is that a warning or a threat? |
A warning, certainly no threat, what could I threaten you with?To be fair I don't really notice any insulting or trolling in Eddie's posts... He seems to discuss the existence of Christ in the same way he would the life of Ötzi the Iceman, involving science but also employing some light-hearted(granted, sometimes juvenile) speculation, which might then seem insulting to people who view Christ in a higher personal regard than mr. Ötzi for example, I guess... |
Thanks, dome one seems to get it
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: January 26 2017 at 03:25 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Now giving the amount of sh*t I'm received for posting these threads- which everyone seems to enjoy posting on - I think I will forget posting anymore of them because this place has become a boys club amongst certain members which I find distasteful - so come up with your own thread Ideas you lazy so and so's |
You posted a thread topic that everyone but you (evidently) consider to be inflammatory and now you're whining that the replies are not to your liking? As an atheist I will readily tell you my beliefs, but I won't go out of my way to attack others for their religious affiliations, nor question their beliefs regarding their specific deity. Coming from America, you have the freedom to have your own delusions -- as long as they don't infringe on other people's freedoms (which, unfortunately, often happens because of religiosity).
And acting like you did everyone a favor posting this thread is a f**king joke. So please, do forget posting your inane threads. No one will lose sleep over their absence.
I suggest that a moderator close this thread. There's really nothing more worthwhile to discuss. |
Yout just a fu*kin* joke and thicker than dark ice
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 25 2017 at 23:44 |
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
Against my better judgement, but here goes nothing... |
Dean wrote:
My judgement proves to be right again. |
Your opinion proves to be right?
By what court of opinion? Sorry,
but that seems bit cute. Could you please back that up with an argument instead of just stating a claim that you are right. |
Every time I get involved with a discussion with you I react badly to something you type which may have seemed innocuous to you but for some reason pushes all the wrong buttons in me, in the early days they resulted in me getting angry, then resentful, finally I've came to expect and accept them so experience mild disappointment and move on, and then after our last exchange I realised that the cause problem was me, not you so I vowed to simply avoid your posts. So, against my better judgement I chose to reply to your comments on one of my posts here, fully expecting some throw-away remark from you to piss me off, which it did and rather than brush it off and move on I responded in kind - ergo my judgement proved to be right. QEf**kingD.
So now, having proved myself right I am walking away from this exchange, as I should have done the last time I said that.
Edited by Dean - January 25 2017 at 23:44
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What?
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Jesus Christ! Fact or fiction?
