Jesus Christ! Fact or fiction?
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Topic: Jesus Christ! Fact or fiction?
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Subject: Jesus Christ! Fact or fiction?
Date Posted: January 18 2017 at 20:50
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Jesus didn't exist because he was a story made up by the Romans around 50ad, and there was no place called Nazareth at the time. And indeed no place called Bethlehem at the time. One of the writers of one of the Gospels refers to Jesus as a Nazarine, but this is misunderstood to assume Jesus and his family were from Nazareth, and Jesus and co were not because there was not such a place at the time. And whilst a few hundreds years BC there had been a town called Bethlehem as mentioned in the Jewish scriptures prophesizing the birth of the Messiah (the God of the Messianic Jews), the ignorance of the writers of Luke and Matthew tried to amend the failed attempt of Mark of appeasing the Messianic Jews by writing in the prophesies, so creating the nativity and locating it where there was nothing but barren stony ground. The Passion is a typical Pagan god story of that time, Mark's account of the Jesus ministry is basically using the writing of Josephus' account of Titus Flavian in the Middle East and Palestine, and then Matthew and Luke bring in more typical Pagan god story to flesh out the nativity and try to keep the Messianic Jews happy. But the Jews never bought it. What's your view.............
 ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Replies:
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 18 2017 at 23:34
Yes there was, Historian John P Meier proved that Nazareth was a insignificant village in Galilee, as a fact James F Strange calculate the populatoion of Nazareth in less than 500 persons. The archaeologist Yardena Alexandre discovered the exact location of Nazareth in 2009. Bethlehem didn't existed a few hundred years BC, as a fact the El-Amarna Tablets, is mentioned around 1,500 BC and is also mentioned 3,000 years BC it already existed in hopnor to a deity called Lahama, a name that changed into Beit Lahama (The House of lahama). The rest of your post sounds more like conspiracy theory. ------------- 
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EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 00:21
| No human being can come back to life after being nailed to wood........sorry, I just can't buy into it..... |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 00:48
Very good point ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 01:10
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You have to define what you mean by "Jesus", because there is some evidence a popular guy with that name did exist. But isn't the question whether or not he was literally divine?, which leads to belief and opinion and experience and faith and ... By the way, quick question: any views on what theoretic Jesus would think about Christian history? Pleased? Mortified? Happy to let things be? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 02:18
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Here something else to chew on. The Christian Religion was an invention of the Romans to keep their dominions under control and worked very well for quite a period of time and still works pretty well for the Pope in Rome and all the various Splinter groups that have descended from it............. If it was not for Constantine there would be no Christian religions as we know today ................... ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 02:32
| It's all a bunch of psychological politics. A rule-book suggesting we live our way according to doo-gooder ideals that they state we should live by. Good luck, everyone !!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 02:40
| Fact. |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 03:16
It's a fact, I read it in the bible  ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 03:23
I’d take someone living their life to the guidelines of the bible over some of the most unpleasant, hedonistic, debauched, selfish, sexually depraved, self-gratifying, nasty, irresponsible, vindictive, directionless and arrogant people I’ve encountered in my life any day. 
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 05:39
| ^ I totally agree with you, Michael. I've known many Christians in my life and they were basically decent people. I would rather be around them much more than any of the low life a**holes that I have also known in my life. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 06:08
Why should the Romans fake a story about Jesus of Nazareth (which did exist back then as a small village with a surface of approximately 10 acres), who lived in a province of minor importance in the Roman Empire? Bethlehem was there, and it had been there for at least 1040 years. King David was born there in 1042 or 1041 BC and Micah named it sometime during the second half of the 8th century BC. The name Bethlehem means "House of bread" and is not named after some pick from the deities galore as Iván suggests. About the Passion (which word refers to the suffering of Jesus): Tell me which pagan god was prepared to die for our sins. I don't know one. And the resurrection was something unheard of, the more because it was something physical and not symbolic. And I wonder how Mark could use the writings of Flavius Josephus about a war which was not yet fought to the full when he wrote his gospel. And if it was, he must have had access to a copy somehow. A printed book? That would not stand out among the other anachronisms. And now to the point: It is a fact, no fiction. I won't quote 1 John here right now, 2 Peter 1:16 will do:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 06:39
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I may surprise Ivàn, but I do believe there was some kind of prehistoric-hippie that lived and created havoc in the Romana Pax (roman peace) at the time... But he was some kind of jewish-beatnik that took himself seriously, no more Too bad his buddies believed exploiting his death for their own profit & glory.
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 06:54
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^First: we're not discussing how good people are Christian people. We know, we know, most of them give to the poor, they live and share with the community and they cook cakes to the newcoming neighbours. Fine. But that's not the point of the thread. Secondly: while there are some details in the biography of Jesus as written in the Bible that are to be believed (the Resurrection, his divine nature, the Lazarus resurrection, the water becoming wine, etc...), I'm not sure we're discussing if Jesus was a man whose life times had been a little exagerated by his "biographists" or if he was the Son of God and the Messiah. The initial post asks the question of his EXISTENCE - a question more... crucial. Thirdly: I'm aware of the "mythicist" hypothesis (the hypothesis that Jesus may have been a myth) and I consider that some points raised by the mythicists are... interesting and even seducing... But, having been a history student, I don't want to be seduced: I want to be convinced with proofs. And, to speak the truth, while I acknowledge some problems within the biographical aspects of the New Testament,what Eddie says won't convince me. Not only Constantine making Christianism the official religion of the Roman Empire wasn't the best thing to do by the Empire to keep its "dominions" under its grip (the cult of Mithra was vastly practiced by soldiers and merchants, two important groups in the Roman society), but this decision was also criticised by the elite and some rulers. Also, the main problems with the written sources about Jesus are not that the geographical aspects would be wrong: keep in mind that we don't have versions of the Evangiles older than the fourth century. We must assume that there could have been, decades after decades, heavy re-writings of what Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote in their times. That could explain some geographical glitches or even the weird holes in the chronology (we know that Jesus was born under the reign of Herod, but the year is still unclear). What could puzzle us is that we can't find sources about Jesus from his times: none of the contemporean Roman, Greek or Hebraic authors wrote about him. The first authors referencing Jesus are Tacite, Pline the Young and Suetone - the three ones writing at the end of the first century, more than 50 years after Jesus' death. On the other hand, Paul of Tarse, whose existence was real, met the former disciples of Jesus and started writing around the year 50. So, it could be accepted as a proof of the existence of Jesus - even if his biography is somewhat full of holes. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 10:47
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A person named Jesus most likely existed. Maybe he was as amazing in his words and actions (bar the supernatural ones) as he has been described. He surely was the normal son of a man and a woman. ------------- 
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Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 11:02
| Interesting, as much as intriguing. I've been noticing so much concern about proving Jesus existence, that ultimately I get wondering what's the real point in that, since both the basic principles of life existence and of human relationship - as a matter of fact - haven't ever changed since long before any occidental religion ever existed, no to say the oriental ones which are much older. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 11:06
| Yes although not believing in god(s), virgin births or any of that magical bullsh*t - I do believe in a historical nice and popular guy called Jesus. Kind of glad he's more of an ideal for modern day christians than his bloodthirsty psychopath of a "father". |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 11:24
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^ That's pretty much how I feel. I'm rather agnostic on the issue, but in a sense I veer towards both fact and fiction. I don't believe in the veracity of the claims made about Jesus in the bible or in Islamic scripture or various religious texts, but I do suspect that there was a Jesus figure that had followers that inspired the writings. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 13:26
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A man named Jesus of Nazareth is thought by academics to have existed two thousandth years ago and put to death by the Roman prefect Pilate. If he was divine or an enlightened social thinker should be the question, as some others have stated. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:16
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I guess my Question is did Jesus exist as an actual person........... I don't think that historical evidence supports his existence and that he is most likely a combination of ancient myths cobbled together by the early Christian writers during the birth of Christianity. I mean if someone was bring people back from the dead etc, I think the Romans might have noticed..... for example and yet there is no historical record of Jesus in Roman texts and the Romans where very religious (lol) in their record keeping.
You might ask what did the Romans ever do for us?! ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:25
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Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:37
The Passion is a typical Pagan god story of that time, Mark's account of the Jesus ministry is basically using the writing of Josephus' account of Titus Flavian in the Middle East and Palestine, and then Matthew and Luke bring in more typical Pagan god story to flesh out the nativity and try to keep the Messianic Jews happy. But the Jews never bought it. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:43
I'm definitely real, please believe in me Eddie  ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:51
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Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 14:52
^ Of course Alien, we all know Aliens are real................. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:11
 ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:14
^Well, it does make more sense.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:20
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I would be surprised if there were no aliens, illegal or otherwise, but as for fabulous aliens (i.e aliens with no basis in reality; mythical)... Like with the fabulous adventures of Jesus, I'm less likely to believe in those than believe in some pretty ordinary guy who may or may not have been named Jesus but developed a sort-of following of near biblical proportions. Alien vs. Predator vs. Jesus might make for a decent film. "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Jesus - Mathew 10:34). That Jesus ascended into the heavens to be on a spaceship is not that uncommon an idea (maybe a tractor beam). And many think that Mohammed ascended into heaven on a winged horse, but could it not have been a Trojan rocketship? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:24
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For the record, I'm a complete agnostic in regards to both. There is no compelling evidence for me either to believe in these phanomia or not. So, until then...
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:25
Lets just not mention Scientology ever again- that only for Hoolywood actors  We should just start our own quasi religious Science Fiction Religion - any name suggestions???  ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:27
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^I can't as I follow the Church of Hawkwind. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:33
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The Xenu/ Vader Alliance. And Scientology is fascinating, not just because it's the world's most litigious religion. If I were to create a Science Fiction religion based on a novel, I'd go with Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, and I'd call it The School of Grok. |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:39
I follow the CASH churchChurch of American Secular HumanismThousands of years ago, wise men predicted a NEW RELIGION would appear at the time of a unique planetary alignment called The Harmonic Convergence – THE PROPHECY HAS BEEN FULFILLED! http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Church_of_American_Secular_Humanism" rel="nofollow - http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Church_of_American_Secular_Humanism ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:41
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If Jesus wasn't real, all those exclamations like "Jesus Christ, what I have just done?!" would sound slightly empty. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:45
Despite the sound[s] of it, CASH is a not for prophet organisation. |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:48
Yes, my username has quite a few open interpretations. In this case, I am your messiah  Now, why doesn't someone get me a Pepsi
? ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:48
It's funny, I remember Dawkins's atheistic integrity being questioned by a believer because he used the expression "Oh my God," or some such thing. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:49
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Did Heracles exist, Achilles, Homer, or Hesiod, hard to tell, Was Sokrates a litterary figure made upp by Platon. some are myth, some are conjured people others might be a collective of individuals, others are just a joke, but things from this far back, is all really hard to know the hard earned source or facts, as first hand witnesses and first degree sources are hard to come by. -------------  
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:52
| I guess we won't know until after we die... Oh wait, what am I saying? |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 15:57
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I think, therefore i am - i live therefore i also will die, am i asleep or am i dreaming, -------------
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Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:00
 ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:03
I saw this-- disappointing. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:05
Who kicked butt??? ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:15
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Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:23
| I believe that he was a real person, whether or not he was a spiritual figure is up for debate. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:26
Descartes and Poe, getting very philosophical. Reminds me of the response to Garth Merenghi by Dean Learner on that train of thought. "It's like that philosophical question: If a tree falls in the forest, and I'm not there, and it makes a sound, but I don't hear it, but someone records it and plays it back to me at a dinner party, does that mean I'm still in the forest? And if I am, then why can't I just take a piss in the garden rather than queuing for the toilet? And that's if the toilet even exists, I've been trying to use it all f*ing night. I'm starting to doubt the existence of the toilet quite frankly at this stage of the proceedings. Get a portaloo is what I'm saying. If you're going to have a party of that size, get a portaloo. 'Cause I don't want to spend my entire f*ing evening in the corridor. And if philosophy can solve those questions, then it's worth it. But thus far it can't. So I'm f'ing busting, and what's Plato doing about it? Nothing'" (Dean Learner talking to Garth Merenghi). See 8:49 up for the deep thoughts.... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:35
Yep, a fabulously false Messiah as evidenced by asking for a Pepsi cola. I might have believed you were my true Messiah if you had asked for a Coke, because Coke, it's the real thing, uh huh. Coca Cola: Nectar of the gods, uh huh (TM). |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 16:59
Jesus, the torture never stops!  Did a vehicle fly along the mountains and find a place to park itself? ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 17:35
Did Jesus mutter to himself "Jesus, the torture never stops" on his way to Calvary? Which is in poor taste, I know, as my non-almighty father taught me that it's poor manners to answer a question with another question. No, the vehicle was washed up on the mountain due to the flood, but it wasn't an Ark, it was an Arkura. Erm....
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Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 17:48
Lol, making Zappa references is unintentionally making it more offensive Now, as I'm Jesus. Where the hell am I? also, why does everything I see look like this?  ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 18:12
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He was real! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 18:31
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Man invents God. God says nothing. Man speaks for God. God says nothing. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 19:32
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Although much different than what most people think, Jesus the son of man as well as Jesus the Son of God was and is real. Control over nature, such as calming storms, walking on water, producing fish and bread out of thin air is mere child’s play to a fully realized master. |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 19 2017 at 20:15
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Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God. Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Their adoptive human father was a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura. Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head." Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki." Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection." Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth. Both were "without sin." Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases." Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Too much similarities in my personal view to just call it "coincidence". There's an ugly little wasel 'bout three-foot nine Face puffed up from cryin' 'n lyin' 'Cause her sweet little hubby's Suckin' prong part time (In the name of The Lord) Get a clue, little shrew Oh yeah, oh yeah Jesus thinks you're a jerk Did he really choose Tammy to do His Work? Robertson says that he's The One Oh sure he is, If Armageddon Is your idea of family fun, An' he's got some planned for you! (Now, tell me that ain't true) ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 00:14
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^That's interesting. I know some other mythological parallels, but I'm going to refrain from putting it out there because it's been a long long time since I researched it. I actuallly think he was both mythological and historical. I assume he was part of a mystery cult whose leaders practiced ritual self sacrifice by means of testimonial meant to lead to martyrdom. The first we have any name for is John the Baptist, who also had his own followers even to this day. The next we know of and can put a name to is Jesus. Then there were apostles and saints that followed, getting themselves martyred at hands of the Romans. Many of those are also celebrated in a suspiciously worshipful manner for a monotheistic religion. In other words, I see it such that all of them were seeking the same salvation/transformation, and any one of them could potentially have been regarded as divine, either right then at the time or post hoc, depending on how the stories got shaped or on which stories became more favored over time. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 01:42
A highly recommended read re: theological parallels. The name changes, the script, not so much. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 03:20
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Belive whatever you like, just don't try to force others to do the same and don't start thinking you are better than those who belive diffrent.
And don't walk on water when I am fish'ng. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 04:45
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Adopting Christianity was a very smart move by the Romans. The Roman Empire become the Catholic Roman Empire , and Caesar became the Pontiff, and the Empire spread across the entire Globe indifferent of boarders and political administrations. Very Smart. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 06:09
Conspiracy theories abound to explain this, there are even some atheist ones that speculate on how a person who may or may not have existed in the flesh (whether divine or not) can 'return' from the dead. The simplest (and thus most logical) is that such a character didn't die on the cross but was taken down before death ensued, but there are many variants on that depending on how much anyone truly wants to believe. One that amuses me centres around the idea of jewish excommunication [herem] where heretics [minim] are excluded from the community and ignored as though they never existed or are dead (but not mourned). This particular conspiracy requires Lazarus to be an excommunicated heretic who was mourned by his family so Jesus (as a rabbi) returned him to the community (i.e., life) as an act of pardon (forgiveness - a strong theme in early christianity). This sets the precedent for Jesus' subsequent "resurrection" following his excommunication from the jewish religion by the local priests and elders. Much of what Jesus is reported to have been preaching was heretical to judaism so his excommunication (rather than execution) is not that fanciful. The crucifixion then becomes a symbolic execution rather than a physical one (the jewish tradition of placing a stone on the hearse if a heretic died parallels the stone on Jesus' tomb for example) and therefore the resurrection would also be symbolic rather than an actual zombie reanimation of a corpse. These conspiracies often uses the quran to support this view as the text referring to Jesus' resurrection says: "but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, ..." - in other words a cover-up. Todd raised another point regarding ritual self-sacrifice as a means of martyrdom. Like in the christian religion, back then suicide was regarded as a sin in judaism so (while not heretical per se) it brings shame upon the families of those who take their own lives. Covering-up such suicides after the event, simply denying it was suicide, or proclaiming they were not of sound-mind is not uncommon now and wasn't then. In contrast, judaism had a somewhat mixed view of martydom but in general regarded it as mostly positive since it was an act that honoured the name of their god. Therefore the invention of a martyr scenario in such cases is a relatively simple way of denying a suicide (ritual or not). 'Suicide by Roman' (akin to the modern ' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop" rel="nofollow - suicide by cop '), is something else to throw into the pot with regard to self-inflicted martyrdom as the gospels state that Jesus could have saved himself but chose not to. [Coincidentally, I was listening to a re-run of Andy Hamilton's Old Harry's Game ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Harrys_Game#Christmas_Special_2002" rel="nofollow - 2002 Christmas Special ) on the radio the other day where he (as Satan) posits that all the martyred saints were hastily covered-up suicides.] Of course in fiction anything is possible.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 08:13
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Dean, you put too much thought into everything. You are so not 'Murican -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 11:14
Awe, that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. Thanks Teo.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 12:37
Convenient comparisons do more to hurt one's argument then to help them. Let's take this one for instance, without going through very many, off the top of my head, I can tell you that the main differences lie with the source of the comparisons. That Krishna was crucified is found only in a select Hindu oral tradition and not in the Hindu's authoritative text titled the Mahabharata, which also includes the philosophical treatise known as the Bhagavad Gita. Both of these texts would be comparable to the Christian Bible and it's text which focuses on Christ called the New Testament, and relates all of the Christ tales. First off, Krishna was not crucified in the Mahabharata but accidently shot in the heel by a friend while hunting. This death is more akin with the death of the Greek hero Achilles. No crucifixion or resurrection, as relayed in one of hundreds, if not thousands, of oral variants. That is just one and probably most important literal difference. There is also a deep divide in each religion's theologies which puts any comparisons of the two into the trash. Krishna revealed to his charge Arjuna (in the Bhagavad Gita) this key Sanskrit proclamation: "Tat Tvam Asi." (Thou art that.) That man and the divine are one, and he was celebrated for it. Christ was condemned and executed for stating the same thing, that He and Father were one. There are better ways to disprove myths without using sloppily patched together comparisons.
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Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 13:22
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Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God. Aren’t we all? Didn’t we just delude ourselves into thinking otherwise? Jesus and Krishna were one of many that lifted their veil of delusion.
There were masters throughout the ages that did not have to reincarnate back on the physical plane but chose to do so for a special dispensation.
Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Anyone attuning their consciousness with the universal Christ Consciousness has achieved unity. The Holy Trinity is referenced in most of the world’s religious texts but very widely misunderstood. When God as Spirit, existing beyond all of vibratory creation (causal, astral and material) decides to create He becomes God the Father. His reflected consciousness within all of vibratory creation is His only Begotten Son. Referred to as Christ or Christ Consciousness, Buddha mind, Krishna Consciousness and many other such references. The Holy Symphonic Vibration that makes up all of vibratory creation is the Holy Ghost. Think string theory here…
A spirit or ghost was their actual father. There is only one Spirit that became the Father of all. Everything originated from a singularity.
As I gather Krishna was from royalty but Jesus was more of a peasant. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. If the 3 wise men came out of the east and followed the star of the east how did they end up in the west? The star of the east wasn’t an actual star in the sky. It’s the spiritual eye of intuition and gateway into omnipresent perception. The star of the east is also known as the third eye, inner eye, eye of Shiva, single eye of intuition, dove descending from heaven and probably many others.
Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill
the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary
and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.
Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.
Compare yourself to anyone on this planet and I’m sure you could dredge up a lot of similarities. Coincidence? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 14:36
who knows... but one thing we know he wasn't hahahha... a f**king Republican ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 14:51
|
^We should probably qualify that with a chronological /geographic stamp. "Republican " outside of post-WWII USA has been the more liberal leaning term in English speaking countries....if my historical interpretations are worth a grain of salt. What it meant at that time? I guess we would have to chance asking the Republican Guard. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 15:11
deep man.. so deep it hurt my head. I would figure my meaning was crystal clear... the same god fearing gun wielding minority hating Republicans that infest this country in the here and now. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 15:18
|
There's some other stories that were liberally 'borrowed' from other mythological dieties/demi-gods as well, right down to the name of Jesus being a combination of Isa and Zeus. Perhaps the most borrowed stories, probably because it had been such a "normal" part of like (and death) a couple of thousand years ago are those of the crucifixion and resurrection, which were previously associated with Horus, Mithras, Osiris, Dionysos, Krishna (or Chrishna), Hesus, and Osiris. Indeed, many of the events of Christ's life in the Gospels were copied from "previous saviors" of non-Christian pagan religions. Stories of Dionysus especially have a lot in common with the stories of Jesus. You just don't believe in it, and never even think about it. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 15:19
------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 15:25
|
*mind blown* ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 15:47
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------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 16:18
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 16:33
^ Couldna said it bedda myself...........  ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 20 2017 at 18:41
. . . .  -------------
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 04:25
You've not read the bible much then. Chapter 1 of Matthew goes to great length (17 verses) to establish the royal blood line of Abraham to David and then to Jesus (42 generations) while Luke extends that back from Abraham to Adam (76 generations in total). Establishing a direct link back to the biblical first man is somewhat meaningless path as many of the descendants of Adam would not show royal heritage so the only genealogical path of interest is that to King David and for the sake of argument we can say the number of generations from Jesus to King David is roughly 28 (according to Matthew). Archaeological and OT evidence of the reign of David dates him around 970BCE and that makes the length of a generation as approximately 34 years, which stacks up with the general rule-of-thumb of 30 years. This makes Luke and Matthew's genealogy at least mathematically feasible and not just arbitrary lists of names......from a mathematical perspective since each person has 2 biological parents, 4 biological grandparents, 8 biological great-grandparents and so on then 28 generations back from Jesus would be 268.4 million biological ancestors, which is 5 times the population of the whole planet at that time and roughly 500 times the population of Israel so there was a hell of a lot of intermarrying within each family and/or tribe. This means that the probability of an Israelite alive in 0CE being a descendant of King David approaches 1, not only that they are also directly related to every other Israelite alive at the time of King David... The royal descent of Jesus is pretty much fundamental to him fulfilling the whole messianic prophecy malarkey where the immaculate conception is merely the icing on the cake... Also, since Joseph was a tradesman technically he wouldn't have been a peasant so Jesus wouldn't have been either.
There is a significant difference between coincidence, correlation and causation. A correlation is when the similarity is greater than what can be predicted by statistics alone, however if there is nothing that links the cause of the correlation then it is just coincidence. If I compare my eye-colour with anyone on this planet then I'll find that only 1 in 12 people have similar colour eyes as me, yet if I only make that comparison with people who live on the same island as me then I am six times more likely of finding a match and if I travel to Scandiwegia those odds are pretty much reversed with 9 out of 10 people sharing similar eye-colour as me. However if I travel to India or the Middle East then the proportion of people with similar eye-colour to me drops way below 1 in 12 to become insignificantly small. So because there is a strong correlation between my eye colour and specific populations of people then we can expect to find a causation of particular eye-colours that are linked to the genealogical make-up of those populations that makes blue eyes commonplace in some regions and rare as rocking horse poop in others. This is something that can be investigated to identify why there appears to be a causational correlation rather than a statistically anomalous coincidence. Now Eddie's point here is the number of similarities between Jesus, Krishna (and other divine/messianic/religious figures) are above what can be predicted by statistics alone which makes this either a massive coinkydink or there is an identifiable cause for the correlation. The two obvious causes would be either they are the same person (unlikely but it has been proposed that Jesus travelled to India during his undocumented gap years between the end of his childhood and the beginning of his ministry) or the accounts of their lives and elevation to divinity are based upon a common and recurrent mythology that is prevalent in many (if not all) the worlds religions. On the other hand both Jesus and Krishna are often depicted with the same eye-colour as me, my father was a carpenter and I am a descendant of Charlemagne - coincidence?
------------- What? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 04:26
Wow two days (coudn't find time yesterday) and four pages down (only??)... Good old PA spirit lives on, uh?
First: it's too bad we're not discussing the evils of worship. Secondly, to my knowledge it's not in the bibble (the old/ancient testament) they speak of the beatnik freak, but in the four evangiles in the new testament Thirdly: as an atheist, I'd love to say that even the prophet is a fallacy, tbut most likely, there were dozens of nutcases hearing the voices from above on every steet corner... so whether he was called Joe Dick or harry (most likely the second ), I don't give a hoot, but he most likely existed and unlike many of outer-space hearing dorks, this one was a peaceful one (which is not the case of that Mahomet dde, wh was a murderer and forced his beliefs on others. Fourth: it's kind of logivcal no-one wrote about him as he was insignificant enough that no-one (except for a dozen freaks) thought it worthy to put down on paper his name. That's the point of a sect: a selected few start making up a piece of BS, and go on to spread the BS as far across as possible... So it took 50 them years for them to achieve that. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 05:47
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The feather that magically turned into 10 chickens. I know from personal experience how my old stories have changed quite considerably depending on beer intake, chicks and what mood I'm in. Jesus was most likely a fine gent with some remarkably sympathetic ideas - hitting that hippie high well before Jimi wore blossom pants - but the accompanying tales are tarnished by time and the lack of any scientific proof. I believe in the historical person - not the divine. Divinity is man-made. For all we know, Jesus could've been a fine bowler.  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 06:39
Finally a good point on all this pointless discussion about their actual principles.......... So far it seems that Krishna should be part of the thread title.......... So, what about veering towards a much more coherent direction?? As people here seem SO interested in eastern mithology, then what about proven facts....... so let me give a suggestion, so easy to pick on this matter: The Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism tenets' striking parallels with the latest discoveries in cyclotrons. This should be of better interest both for the agnostic and the religious people, rather than trying to find the truth about the religious leaders or whatever were them.
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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 08:35
| More then likely, Jesus did exist and was crucified, although most the Bible stories are a crucifiction. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 09:09
In fact, much of the Bible is based on historical fact, being a story of God's "chosen people". It is the miracles, resurrection, and other such instances which require faith. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 09:25
This is why its preferable to compare ancient written sources against other ancient written sources, and why RUkiddingVarese's written vs oral comparisons hold little weight with academics.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 13:22
Much? Meh, not so much, and even then it's likely to be heavily embellished with little to differentiate history from legend. The "history" books of the OT are essentially the first 17 books, though the pentatuech is more an allegorically (re)imagined history than anything that anyone could rightly call historical fact. Of the remaining 12 books a couple or three of them could be regarded as fictional writings (similar to parables or fables) rather than factual accounts of real historic events so that means that only 9 of the 39 books of the OT are in anyway relate to a telling of history - how factual they are is open to debate as very little of the Bronze and Iron Age history they tell of has been verified by archaeology. Similarly only 5 of the 27 books of the NT relate to anything that can be regarded as historical and there are sufficient inconsistencies between those five books to raise doubts over their factual veracity. But it has to be remembered that both testaments are primarily for religious instruction, not historical accuracy. ------------- What? |
Posted By: CosmicVibration
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 14:56
For your information I’ve read the entire Bible, cover to
cover; well over 30 years ago. Probably wrong on my part but I was viewing royalty as more
of a lifestyle than a bloodline. sh*t, if I go back far enough maybe I’m of royal descent. Or most likely of a Gypsy clan, given my many different nationalities. In any case, I did not know that Jesus was of royal descent. I learned something today.. |
Posted By: yesstiles
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 15:41
Oh boy, you must be a recently "enlightened" college student haha.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 15:49
I subscribe to the Biblical Archaeological Society, more, by the way, out of historical and archaeological interest than religion, although I am also interested in the latter, as you know. The amount of archaeological evidence to support characters and happenings in the Old Testament is surprising, and, in my opinion, rather revealing. I remember my late mother, a committed atheist to her last day, saying to me one day, during a conversation, that the entire Bible was a "work of fiction". I asked her on what that opinion was based, and she said it was "well known". I proceeded to show her the latest evidence regarding King David and the wars against his enemies of the time. Whilst the fable of him felling Goliath can safely be said to be just that, an allegorical fable, the fact is that evidence is clear that he was a ruler, the archaeology supports very strongly the layout of Jerusalem set out in Kings, and numerous tablets have been discovered which support the conflicts and laws described. Turning to the New Testament, there is no doubt whatsoever in modern historical scholarship that Jesus was a living breathing man, and that a very strong oral tradition about his sayings and teachings survived to be set out in both Paul's epistles, and the synaptic gospels. The faith bit comes in if you wish to believe that, for example, he raised both Lazarus and, indeed, himself, from the dead. An earlier post mentioned later historians as some kind of weird "evidence" that Christ was a Roman fiction. Damned stupid argument. Again, virtually every single serious modern scholar agrees that Tacitus (whose histories have stood the test of both time and evidence), Suetonius, et al were writing about a real person, and the fact that his mission created a fair bit of trouble in a far flung, and troublesome, part of the Empire. The books which form part of The Torah, or our Old Testament, were as much a history of a people as they were a religious set of texts. They formed a series of texts of those people attempting to understand their culture and their relationship with God, and how both shaped the world in which they lived, especially those which were written after the initial diaspora following invasions of their lands, and the destruction of the First Temple. Again, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Israelis were ruled by Kings and Judges, and that the evidence quite clearly points to those named in the texts as being real historical people. The same goes for the Prophets. You may think they talked out of their arse, but they were real men and women talking out of their arses. It is very easy for ignorant people to simply dismiss all religion as mere fantasy (for the sake of clarity, although I do not need to do so, I should make it absolutely clear this is not directed at you. You are anything but ignorant, and I enjoy our conversations very much), but I am of the opinion that much of what are now texts of major religions are based upon longstanding oral traditions passed down through the ages, with at least a basis in facts and real people. Again, turning to the Old Testament, the discovery of the texts in the Dead Sea Scrolls surprised many by just how consistent they were with the written versions extant from late Roman times available to us. Does all of this mean that The Bible is the true word of God, passed to us down the ages? Of course not, just as the Koran cannot be definitely proven as being the last testament of God, as revealed to Mohammed by his Angel. This is where faith comes in. I have faith that there is a living God. I believe that He has manifested himself in many ways to many different cultures, not least in the music and lyrics of a certain Mr Anderson I respect the right of people such as yourself to deny that. But I do insist that much of what is written is based at least partly, and, in many instances, more so, in historical fact. It is the Divinely inspired bit which causes the trouble. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 15:53
|
Yeap 53 and still chasing those college girls ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 15:56
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Not reading the whole thread, but I do believe there was a person named Yeshua bin Yoseph (commonly known as Jesus) who lived and preached in first-century Judea. I also believe that he would be appalled at a lot of the stuff people have been doing in his name ever since. ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 16:00
oh boy, you must be a forum newbie  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 16:31
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Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 17:29
And this stands for every religious leader. Not to say the ever increasing amount of people who commonly misunderstand their own religion principles instructed by their leaders.
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 18:03
------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 19:41
|
By the way, I voted for fact, even though I'm not really convinced that it is so. I do think, as I said earlier, that it was basically a sophisticated suicide cult (I thank Dean for his additional comments on that). Hard to tell whether the names given (John, Jesus, Peter...) were actual people; They could alternatively be amalgamations of historical figures, or religious titles. I provisionally assume real people, but maybe not. I think they were also steeped in mythology to one extent or another. The mythological parallels might cast doubt on the historical veracity, or it may be a case of life imitating myth (e.g. riding in to town on a donkey, using a pretty transparent analog of human sacrifice at the last supper) - things that possibly were actually done because they were recognized religious memes at the time. Alternatively, they may be memes that originate in embellishments of the "historian"/storyteller. Whether Jesus was historical or not says nothing about whether he was divine or not. For that matter, proof of the existence of God says nothing about whether he/she merits worship (being an atheist, this is a point of contention I have with agnostics). ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 20:34
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I would have to say most modern scholars concur with high probability that there was an historical Jesus. Argue amongst yourselves regarding the plausibility of the Gospels as historical documents about this Jesus, however. In addition, there is also archaeological evidence that confirms both Nazareth and Bethlehem predate Jesus. What is remarkable is not that there are few contemporary reports of an historical Jesus, but that there are any at all, and that they survived, given the era and the remoteness of Jerusalem as an outlying province of Rome. What is silly is the remark that Christianity was "invented" by the Romans as a means of pacification. Given that Christianity existed in Rome prior to Constantine and Christians were actively persecuted by previous emperors (such as Nero, Decius and Diocletian), and also that as early as 112 A.D. Pliny the Younger wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan on the conducting of trials against suspected Christians, I would have to label the accusation that Romans invented Christianity as "fake news". It would seem some folks are as delusionally zealous in trying to prove he didn't exist as those who try to prove his divinity.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 21 2017 at 21:05
|
There is no God and there is no Jesus or any other other Hocus Pocus religious figure made up over the Eons. Keeps the priests and other spiritual leaders employed I guess............. Religions come, religions go but BS is always around. ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 01:31
So, as I said, you've not read the bible much then...
That's utter drivel and isn't an example of catch 22. It was written by humans for humans and the intellects that wrote it were no smarter (or no dumber) than us. Calling it "the word of god" doesn't mean that god played any part in its production. Aside from some very vague prophecies in the later books of both testaments (where I suspect the effects of the frankincense and myrrh were starting to kick-in) there are no deep mysteries in the bible, it is merely a collection Bronze and Iron Age writings that are open to ambiguous interpretation when read through modern eyes.
Go back far enough and everyone is of royal descent. Not knowing what your different nationalities are I couldn't begin to speculate which royal lines you are related to but if there are several nationalities in your bloodline then every one of those would be connected to the royalty of that nationality if you go back far enough. So it's most likely that you are a descendant of several different royal households, including that of the Romani people if you have Gypsy ancestors.
Pleased to be of service.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 05:41
I tend to be wary of agenda-based science at the best of times but when its purpose is so specific my bias-detectors go on red alert. Even without the burden of pertaining to "Biblical" events archaeology is prone to making hypothesis driven conclusions to what is in reality inconclusive data, most apparently factual conclusions drawn from archaeological finds are little more than [partially] informed supposition. Archaeology is the science of maybe.
If, as you stated, much of the bible is based on historical fact then these findings would neither be surprising or revealing. If the characters and events that the findings support were real then that's all for the good, but the recounting of historical characters and events accounts for less than a quarter of the books in the bible, and many of those are embellished with allegorical fable. The only [partially] verifiable facts are those that can be accounted for without involving a supreme being or anything supernatural.
The problem with such allegorical embellishments is separating fact from fiction and it is that selectivity that creates a major problem for archaeologists and historians. Proving that King David was real does not add veracity to the biblical account of his acts. It could be argued that much of The Railway Children was based upon historical fact ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair" rel="nofollow - The Dreyfus Affair ) but if so then it is a fictionalised account.
No argument from me here. I have no firm opinion on whether Jesus was a living breathing man or not simply because all of the supporting evidence is post hoc - whether the man created the myth or the myth created the man remains unproven so is purely a matter of faith.
One of the problems with history is perspective - the further back in time we look the more compressed our perception of the timeline becomes. Tacitus was born 30 years after the presumed date of the crucifixion and Suetonius 11 years after him so neither were contemporaneous with the events they documented. What we cannot gauge is how periods of 48 and 80 years were perceived by people alive at that time and how much of the factual history they would know of earlier events but it is fairly certain that it would be considerably different to how we perceive 1969 and 1937 today and the vast archive of data we have from those years. Tacitus wrote of christians in 112CE and Suetonius in 119CE, both during their account of the reign of Nero and the burning of Rome in 64CE so they were not writing about a real person as such so their source for the origins of christianity are most likely to have come from the christians themselves, either from the gospels (such as Mark, written some 40 years earlier) or simply as common knowledge.
Ah no. The torah is only the first five books of the OT (aka the pentateuch), they are not a history of the jewish people and the word itself means doctrine or teaching. Many christians regard the pentateuch as being an allegorical history rather than a factual history. Along with the torah, the OT was composed from the nevi'im ("Prophets") and ketuvium ("Writings"). Of those only the books in the nevi'im are regarded as historical, with the books in the ketuvium being called the wisdom books (sort of Haynes manual of worship). Collectively they are known as the tanakh or mikra.
No argument there, their existence is not much of an issue either way. Being real and talking bollocks is not that different to putting those words into the mouth of a fictional character. Even if it can be proven that a real king invaded another country, it does not add anything to the claim that a god instructed him to do it.
This is probable but not undeniable. The deeds of real people are mythologised all the time and you don't have to go back that far in history to find examples of that.
AFAIK the Dead Sea Scrolls, despite being fairly comprehensive on the torah and ketuvium books (especially those concerned with mosaic law), are actually extremely fragmented and thin on texts from the nevi'im History books. However the non-biblical sectarian scrolls give insight to the sect that created and collated them but this does not pertain to the history of Israel or support any of the transcribed scripture in any historically factual way.
------------- What? |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 08:59
|
I can't think of a single topic that's more open to wishful
thinking, apart from the very existence of god (or any god, for that matter). |
Posted By: Tillerman88
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 09:16
Everyone is born with the capability of believing in the existence of something without having to see and hear it first. This capability is commonly called INTUITION, which is historically found to be pretty more developed and mastered on ancient eastern cultures than on our occidental cultures, much more based on empirical evidences. Just as an ilustration of it, one very well-known example is the development of the intuition on the formal training of Samurais. But the most well know geniuses of our occidental culture also naturally developed intuition. Einstein (BTW an ardent beliver in God's existence) wondered about the existence of the gravitational waves (as well as on the existence of their own sounds) without having the least remote empirical evidence of it. Of course his experience and knowledge on that field helped him, however he was the very first to say those two words, as well as kind of 'feel' the possible existence of the gravitational waves. Intuition? Much likely, I would say no wonder about it! And just recently, the scientific community were able to prove their existence. What am I suggesting with all this subject? Just have this perspective in account, and think about it. .. .
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 11:23
A wonderfull book.....and the video series with Moyer and Campbell was excellent.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 14:22
|
I'm gunna give a prise for the longest post, go on see what you can do............ ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 22 2017 at 14:45
Well, I'd not trust you to hand them out for spelling.  ------------- What? |