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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: March 27 2009 at 05:26
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Besides the very patronising tone of your use of 'unfortunates' (as if they were suffering from some severe disability.... many of those people may have OTHER things going for them, even if you can't see it), the bolded part amounts to what I call the 'God complex'. Being more than twice your age, I've seen other people who thought they were invincible, only to get a very harsh wake-up call when they had to come to terms with their own fragility as human beings - which of course doesn't mean I am wishing you any ill, on the contrary.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:46
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Here's where the disillusionment comes in. I'm like you. I come from blue collar folks (carpenters), all intelligent, but my father was a teacher. So I worked summers doing construction and in the fields, real work. I used my smarts and blah blah blah now I'm a doctor.
It is not that I'm bitter because I'm left out, it's guilt in some ways. Many men worker harder than I do every day to make 1/4 the pay. I couldn't do what they do, they can't do what I do, but I get paid much much more. Why? Because I was born as an insider to the educational system, and I am willing to put up with BS to get where I want.
It's not about work.
At the same time, if you're smart, can take a little pain, you probably are set.
If it's not about hard work, what is it about then?
I understand the guilt, but at the same time, I'd feel fortunate that I was born into a better situation.
Edited by birdwithteeth11 - March 26 2009 at 20:52
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:45
micky wrote:
Chris brings up something I wanted to mention earlier... but went off on a tangent..
see free-market captialism much in the same vein as communism... How?
wonderful idea... doomed to failure by the inherent evilness of mankind... evil being pure greed and selfishness. It caught up with Communism ....has it finally caught up with free market capitalism? When did it catch up to Communism? Communism only exists in Cuba and North Korea these days, whereas most western countries at least balance out socialism with capitalism.
how long could the gulf between have and have-nots continue to widen... with the destruction of the middle class.. Call me nuts, but I think a lot of the haves and have-nots come from people running up massive credit card debts because they don't know the difference between needs and wants (waits for responses)
looks like it has.... it so... the market would dictate that weak should fail...and the world would see a depression.. a financial meltdown that the present crisis would pale next to. Even Bush knew that.... The reality is that even in a fairly healthy economy, recessions are a part of life, like death, taxes, and government. How we minimize the damage is the real issue. And the businesses that decided to make bad decisions deserve to be punished for it. But instead they get rewarded with this bailout bullcrap, which is what gets me upset the most.
the way I see it is we finally have responsible leadership in place that appear to want to find the middle ground... and I think that is what the current government is working on... though they will be fought every step of the way by those that have no plan...only fear to sell... Socialism? pffff... Alright, fine. Obama is placing tighter controls on businesses for now. But to me it looks like the start of a slippery slope. If 4 years from now, government hasn't taken greater control over the private sector and is trying to influence our daily lives, I wouldn't be too surprised.
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:35
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Here's where the disillusionment comes in. I'm like you. I come from blue collar folks (carpenters), all intelligent, but my father was a teacher. So I worked summers doing construction and in the fields, real work. I used my smarts and blah blah blah now I'm a doctor.
It is not that I'm bitter because I'm left out, it's guilt in some ways. Many men worker harder than I do every day to make 1/4 the pay. I couldn't do what they do, they can't do what I do, but I get paid much much more. Why? Because I was born as an insider to the educational system, and I am willing to put up with BS to get where I want.
It's not about work.
At the same time, if you're smart, can take a little pain, you probably are set.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:27
Alberto Muņoz wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist.
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct?
And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
Hey Birdwithteeth11 where are the 10 birds before?
They were pushovers. They're sitting in a ruined heap at the bottom of a pile somewhere.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:25
Finnforest wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
I can understand people thinking that hard work isn't that important in being successful. But I think it couldn't be farther from the truth. Let me illustrate an example.
At 22 years old, my grandpa had just gotten out of 4 years of serving in the Air Force. He had no college education and a wife and baby girl to support (that baby being my mom). He had very little money or possessions to speak of. He started with taking a job in a factory where he was paid minimum wage, but he got sick of that really quickly and realized that he was intelligent enough to be the guy running the factory, not working with the machines. So he quit his job and eventually got hired by Kroger (for those who don't know, they're a pretty large supermarket chain that exists mostly in the Midwest and eastern parts of the U.S.) in their corporate offices in Cincinnati. They were reluctant to hire him at first because he didn't have a college education. He did however have the G.I. Bill, so he made the deal that he would work for Kroger starting as a manager in their meat plant while working on his college degree. He spent 8 years balancing work, a college education, and his family. Shortly after he got his degree, he was promoted to run the entire meat plant. He had over 100 people working under him. He eventually moved on to other various management positions throughout the company and managed to earn enough to retire at the age of 46 or 47, somewhere around there (he could have had a chance to become VP of the marketing branch if he had kept going another 5 years or so). And he didn't get any of this by sitting on his ass all the time. My grandparents to this day still live quite modestly.
That's why I laugh when people tell me hard work doesn't get you anywhere.
David, I don't think anyone thinks hard work isn't "important" as you say. Just that it is not even close to a guarantee of success. You also need a combination of smarts and then a good dose of luck. Lots and lots of people have been hard workers and died in abject poverty.
But I agree with you, hard work is a good place to start. I've been bustin' my ass since I was 13 and I've not been unemployed a day since (cept a few days between jobs in my teenage years perhaps)
I understand, Jim. I already have the brains and I do have a few connections, so I figure I'm set for life.
It's the unfortunates who don't have the hard-work ethic, intelligence, or anyone/anything going for them that are going to need help.
Edited by birdwithteeth11 - March 26 2009 at 20:25
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: March 26 2009 at 20:21
Jimbo wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Negoba wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Dean wrote:
James wrote:
Anyhow... Socialism!
Yes. Socialism. Every day I get up and go to work. My salary is set by my boss, his salary is set by his boss and in turn his salary is set by some guy living in LA who cares little for what we do as long as we make a profit each year.
Whether I'm working class (as born) or middle class (through education and employment) - I still work for a living. Hard work got me where I am today, but it will not get me any further - all it will do is maintain the status quo. Until such time comes to pass where I have an independant income, I shall remain a socialist.
But hard work and a good education did advance you some, correct?
And as it has already been mentioned, not everyone is going to climb all the way to the top of the economic ladder. Some people have succeeded and others have failed. That part of humanity isn't going to change.
You're an intelligent person. I see some significant disillusionment in your future.
What do you mean by "significant disillusionment"? About how you get screwed over in the workplace and no one else really gives a damn?
I spent my last summer vacation working as a grunt in a warehouse for a company that packs and ships college textbooks. I saw my fair share of that. Especially since some of the people who worked there and weren't college students treated those of us who were like crap. And I suspect part of the reason was jealousy. I have an opportunity to get further in life than that with a degree in Finance, whereas Joe Smith who spends 8 hours per day 5 days a week packing textbooks in a warehouse probably never had that opportunity and never will.
I may be lower to middle middle-class, but I'm thankful of what opportunities I get. I'll work hard and claw my way up and it's not going to be an easy task for sure. But it's not impossible.
Perhaps so, but what is this upper level you're talking about? What exactly is 'up there' and why is it so important to get there? Money? A high social status? Will it realistically make your life any better?
As far as I'm concerned, your "significant disillusionment" may come from the fact that even if you did achieve everything you wanted career-wise (which doesn't happen for a lot of people), it will not change who you are. It will not make you any happier. Some acquaintances of mine, who've gotten this idea of making it 'to the top', are never content with what they have, even if they're ridiculously lucky to be where they are. They aim so high that they miss all the little good things that may be much more significant in the long run.
I'm not saying you should aim low, just that if your life doesn't quite work out the way you planned, it's not the end of everything. Even if your education doesn't lead you anywhere, it's still worth it. Besides, that 'Joe Smith' may well be happier leading his seemingly simple life than you will ever be as a financial hot-shot. That is how I measure success. It's not about how big your bank account is, it's about accepting & being happy with what you have to be happy with. Chances are, you're still better off than 95 % of the population on this planet.
Sorry, this was a bit off-topic, I don't know where that text came from.
To answer the bolded part (and to further show how I think)...
I'm a hard-working person. In between school I've been working every summer since I was 13. Some of those jobs were part-time and some were full-time. I'm not the kind of person who does something simply because he gets paid for it. I do think money can buy happiness (to an extent), but it goes beyond that. I've been raised in a family that's taught me that if I work my ass off, get a good education, and find a job that will make me happy, then the money will come from that. So to answer your question Jimbo, for me it's not about money or higher status. It's about me taking pride in my work, and when I do a good job that gives me a sense of self-confidence and self-worth. But that's the way human nature is. Although earning enough money to live comfortably is a plus of course.
And like I previously said, I consider myself pretty damn lucky to have been born into the situation I'm in. And I, like everyone else in this thread, am all for helping those who aren't as fortunate. It's how we go about helping those people that we're debating. Anyway, hopefully that helps you understand a bit more where I'm coming from.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:36
James wrote:
So are you saying we're living a life of 80:20 (or 20:80) ratios?
Of course the exact ratios are open to debate, but whether it's 20/80, 15/85 or 25/75 is neither here nor there - it is the general small/big that is important.
The 20/80 rule (aka the Pareto principle) was first explained to me as a means of allocating time resources, but it can be applied to just about anything.
So, yes I do believe we are living a life based on those (or similar) proportions - at whatever level you care to look at it - whether that is job security vs job satisfaction, luxury vs. necessity, leisure vs. work, etc.
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:34
Chris brings up something I wanted to mention earlier... but went off on a tangent..
see free-market captialism much in the same vein as communism...
wonderful idea... doomed to failure by the inherent evilness of mankind... evil being pure greed and selfishness. It caught up with Communism ....has it finally caught up with free market capitalism?
how long could the gulf between have and have-nots continue to widen... with the destruction of the middle class..
looks like it has.... it so... the market would dictate that weak should fail...and the world would see a depression.. a financial meltdown that the present crisis would pale next to. Even Bush knew that....
the way I see it is we finally have responsible leadership in place that appear to want to find the middle ground... and I think that is what the current government is working on... though they will be fought every step of the way by those that have no plan...only fear to sell... Socialism? pffff...
Edited by micky - March 26 2009 at 19:36
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:22
Syzygy wrote:
Gustavo Froes wrote:
Socialism is a lovely,charming idea that in a perfect world would work out just.Thing is,we don't live in a perfect world,and the attempts to get it on going so far were destroyed by lunatics who simply ambitioned the very thing they were suposed to be against.
Delete the word 'socialism'. Insert the phrase 'free market capitalism'.
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:22
Syzygy wrote:
Gustavo Froes wrote:
Socialism is a lovely,charming idea that in a perfect world would work out just.Thing is,we don't live in a perfect world,and the attempts to get it on going so far were destroyed by lunatics who simply ambitioned the very thing they were suposed to be against.
Delete the word 'socialism'. Insert the phrase 'free market capitalism'.
And stop confusing socialism with communism!
Carry on...
Isn't that symmetry beautiful?
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
Posted: March 26 2009 at 19:18
Gustavo Froes wrote:
Socialism is a lovely,charming idea that in a perfect world would work out just.Thing is,we don't live in a perfect world,and the attempts to get it on going so far were destroyed by lunatics who simply ambitioned the very thing they were suposed to be against.
Delete the word 'socialism'. Insert the phrase 'free market capitalism'.
And stop confusing socialism with communism!
Carry on...
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
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Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
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